Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: ronsmith on January 31, 2006, 08:33:25 PM
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I am using used hydraulic oil in my 3.5hp minipetter. i was using waste motor oil but it burned too dirty. i filter my oil through a toliet paper filter, it seems to work good. The hyd. oil burns much cleaner. Anyone else out there using it as a fuel?
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I have about 15 gallons of it, likely not enough to pay for setting up a filter. Did you set up your tp filter exclusively for the hydraulic oil? Did you mix it with regular diesel or use it straight? Thanks,
Ray
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I set up the filter with fresh paper for the hyd. oil. It ran fairly clean Lately i have been mixing 10% waste motor oil with it to burn since i have a good supply of it. The hyd. oil does not have carbon soot mixed in like waste motor oil so it burns cleaner.
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The toilet paper filter does not clean the waste lube oil soot?
How well does the toilet paper filter work? How many oil and / or fuel products have you tried? What do you think of toilet paper filters?
Scott E
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the toliet paper filter removes the heavy sludge from used motor oil but not the carbon black. the wmo seems to run fine in my petter but i like to mix it with the hyd. oil. you have to filter the hyd. oil because it tends to have metal shavings in it. I have a friend who owns a hyd. shop where they rebuild hyd. power units, jacks etc. so he produces 55gal barrels of hyd. oil waste. Good supply. The filter is cheap to build and seems to work fine. I have ran my petter on cooking oil also and it rand fine. As a matter of fact when I got the petter set up, I got in a hurry to start it and had forgot to buy some diesel so I robbed the wife's wesson oil and used it to start. It started on the second hand crank! I want to try wvo this summer when it gets hot and also hook up a fuel warmer to thin my oil.
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I know I'm going against the CS religion here, but I think I'd like to try a petter for my next project.
Scott E
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the 6 hp are pretty good/ start and run good/look just like the 3.5 just a little bigger and heaver/sid
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I know I'm going against the CS religion here, but I think I'd like to try a petter for my next project.
Scott E
UNBELIEVER!!!! :o
STONE HIM!!! :'(
TBH petters were good little engine, and bryce injection kit was pretty good too, they were just a completely different ethos from the Lister CS, literally so, from the point of view of buying your diesel engine by weight.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PETTER-PH1-9-0BHP-2000R-M-SIGLE-CYL-DIESEL-ENGINE_W0QQitemZ7605734252QQcategoryZ58177QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Petter-engine-dumper-small-digger-mixer-tractor-horse_W0QQitemZ7605843259QQcategoryZ112394QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Petter-Diesel-Generator_W0QQitemZ7606777139QQcategoryZ46412QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PETTER-2-5kw-LIGHTING-PLANT_W0QQitemZ6619684604QQcategoryZ69826QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/petter-diesel-stationary-engine-1-65-bhp_W0QQitemZ6268949933QQcategoryZ13869QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
the 2.5 kw lighting plant is about 50 miles away from me, from memory somewhere between 200 and 250 lbs weight, so it could be air freighted for reasonable money.
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several pretty good deals there on e bay/ the one for 12.5 pounds is a nice one..lot of potential and application/sid
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I know I'm going against the CS religion here, but I think I'd like to try a petter for my next project.
Scott E
TBH petters were good little engine, and bryce injection kit was pretty good too, they were just a completely different ethos from the Lister CS, literally so, from the point of view of buying your diesel engine by weight.
Three questions about the British Petters. Are they as fuel-thrifty as the indian MP's, and are they better quality (which is to say, do they have real working governors?)
Do they run in the same 1200 - 1500 rpm range?
Thanks
Russell
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I've been looking at Indian Petter types types for a while now here's a quick run down....
Indian Petters are based on the AV*** series of engines. The first Indian Petter was a clone of the AVA-1 starting in 1949 at Kirolskar. AVA-2 and larger Petters began in the 50's.
English production of the AV*** series is seems to have ended in late 60's, but durring the 20 years they were produced the different series started stopped and restated eg AVA-2 series III.
Indian Petters have evolved with TBRs and bushed types, piston oil pumps, gear type pumps heavy and light fly wheel combo, air cooled, ax air cool, water cooled, water with pumps, alternators and even electric start.
Singles and twins are common and it looks like India made a triple too. Most have a bypass filter for oil in the crank case some have an external spin on filter.
The displacement of the Indian Petters has increased over the years mostly due to longer stroke cranks and there are bore and cranks variations that Petter never built giving rise to large 13.5 Hp singles and small 12 Hp twins.
Quality ? ask Sid and the other owners, I don't own one but I know they are a big seller in the midle east and asia.
Doug
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Three questions about the British Petters.
Are they as fuel-thrifty as the indian MP's,
and are they better quality (which is to say, do they have real working governors?)
Do they run in the same 1200 - 1500 rpm range?
Thanks
Russell
1/ Fuel consumption is very very very closely linked to BHP, it has to be. Think about it.
2/ Genuine Petter is a good little motor, always found in working enviornments, such as 1 ton dump trucks.
3/ Depends on the model, but by and large 1500 rpm was a capable speed for many models.
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Some of the 80mm stroke Indian Petters are rated as high as 2200 rpm. Most in the 110 mm I am told will do 1800 rpm. There are also 114mm, 116mm and 120mm stroke engines. Mr Atul Patel from Power Line says his Petters will work just fine at 1800 RPM. Once you get over that 95 mm bore I suspect your going to wish for a ballance shaft at these speeds.....
Doug
I'm in love with that Little AVA-1 water cooled genset. The last one in the groupe is not an AV type but older might be an "Atomic" hard to tell without seing the name plate no that I care I want it too!!!!
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Hi,
I'm a real newbie to the Forum, have been reading a lot but not posting on any real interest items as yet.
In regard to oils as fuel for Listers and other diesels, I have yet to find a post or info regarding use of ATF (Automatic transmission Fluid) as a fuel. Does anyone have any info at all about it? I have a great source of used ATF, and when I finish moving back to Ohio, need to consider all fuels as I plan to use a 6/2-5KST for backup power.
Any info on the subject would be appreciated.
Mac
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Hi,
I'm a real newbie to the Forum, have been reading a lot but not posting on any real interest items as yet.
In regard to oils as fuel for Listers and other diesels, I have yet to find a post or info regarding use of ATF (Automatic transmission Fluid) as a fuel. Does anyone have any info at all about it? I have a great source of used ATF, and when I finish moving back to Ohio, need to consider all fuels as I plan to use a 6/2-5KST for backup power.
Any info on the subject would be appreciated.
Mac
You are in a unique position of advantage. Your federal government apparently considers ATF to be so useful that they have an entire Bureau devoted to just that.
Not being able to simply pick up the phone and call the BATF, I had to find out how useful it is with my own resources. I have let WTF sit for several years to allow crap and water to settle and have then pumped from the top of the settling tank through a 10 micron filter to a day tank. From the day tank the fuel circulates through a coolant heated heat exchanger and into further water trap/10 micron filter and finally through a 2 micron caterpillar filter before going into a VW, 1.5 Rabbit (and also tried on 1.6 litre Jetta) 4-cylinder diesel engines. The engines ran great but the injectors coked up quite seriously in less than an hour. I did not try putting electric heaters on each injector line and at the injectors themselves. This is unlikely to help however because |I HAVE tried diluting the filtered WTF with clear diesel fuel in 50-50. This gave two hours run before serious coking, but still had coking troubles, and just 20% WTF in clear diesel which ran somewhat longer but still caused coking.
I suspect the problem is fine dust in the mix from the bands and clutches. I am considering building a centrigugal filter or processing through a vacuum distillation plant.
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You are in a unique position of advantage. Your federal government apparently considers ATF to be so useful that they have an entire Bureau devoted to just that.
Not being able to simply pick up the phone and call the BATF...............................
Damn I love a good laugh!!!! ;D
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Mac,
My powerline 12/2 burns used ATF quite happily if it is diluted with about 10 % kerosene.I've never tried heating it but ambient temperatures are around 30 C. Can be slightly smoky until motor is completely hot.I found I had a low compression motor originally but raising it to 17 :1 helps combustion a lot. My injectors came from the factory set to 150 bar, I read somewhere that some are set to 90 bar. This might make a difference. I've only got 250 hours on this set up so far but i have no reason to change and haven't checked the injectors for the last 200 or so hours. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Brian
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Mac,
My powerline 12/2 burns used ATF quite happily if it is diluted with about 10 % kerosene.I've never tried heating it but ambient temperatures are around 30 C. Can be slightly smoky until motor is completely hot.I found I had a low compression motor originally but raising it to 17 :1 helps combustion a lot. My injectors came from the factory set to 150 bar, I read somewhere that some are set to 90 bar. This might make a difference. I've only got 250 hours on this set up so far but i have no reason to change and haven't checked the injectors for the last 200 or so hours. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Brian
Snail,
I find your news encouraging. My VW engine has a 23.5 to 1 CR, so it is not low compression causing my problems with burning WTF. My engine is indirect injection, which is suppossed to help in burning the alternative fuels. That said, I have run a lot of straight VoltEsso 35 transformer oil (new stuff, no contaminants) last winter both about 100 gallons in my VW without any coking problems, and also 20 or so gallons in my 12 HP Petter single (direct injection) with good operation. The viscocity of this xfmer oil and ATF is similar when at room temperatrure. It HAS to be the suspended particulate matter causing my coking problem in the VW.
I wonder what is different about your engine that allows it to tolerate the suspended dust?
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i run mostly wmo but i get 55 gal. of utf once a month and mix it in i like the way it runs no coking.
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RCA,
I'm sure you're right about the solid particles, but i don't know what the differences are between VW and 'roid injectors. I did get a little coking on one cylinder due to a slightly sticky injector caused by minor rust on needle (from new).Had em checked out (that's why I know about the 150 bar) and no problems since then. I would imagine that the VW item is a bit higher tech than the indian version, possibly with smaller orifices? I could see that solids would give more problems in that situation (No evidence, just a guess.) I'm sure that I have solids in my oil due to the cloudy appearance, and that brownish colour suggests burning clutches etc.
I'm thinking of trying the WMO route this year. Should I do anything different?
Brian
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Hi Again,
Thanks to all of you who have posted info on the ATF as fuel. Your comments are really appreciated, and I will continue to monitor the posting to have a really good idea of all or none of the problems associated with running it with a Listeroid.
Mac
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Hi,
Thanks for all the posts on the ATF as fuel for the Listeroids, etc. It is greatly appreciated and I will continue to monitor for any and all problems and/or good news on usage.
Keep Posting!!!
Mac
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So has anyone found any problems running Hydraulic oil? I have found a supplier with 55 gallon drum/week and if it burns clean I want to use it.
I a concerned abount metal in the fuel but I figured lettng it stand and filitering with a 10 micron filter would fix a lot of that
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T19 - if the metallic fines are ferrous, then hard drive magnets are the answer. They're available free from anybody who works on PCs and hasn't yet figured out how useful the things are.
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I take it pulling the magnets at the bottom of the barrel does the trick nicely?
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I take it pulling the magnets at the bottom of the barrel does the trick nicely?
I assume pulling is a typo meaning putting. If you place the magnets at the bottom of the barrel they will only catch and hold ferrous metal particles that wander into their range by gravity or weak circulatory currents driven by room heat over time. I think you would be better to place them in line somewhere like a catch bowl where you know the fuel will flow by next to them. The slower the fuel flows in their vicinity the better, hence the idea of a catch bowl, a reservoir designed to slow the velocity of the fuel as it moves along.
I use two powerful neodemium magnets (1x1/4 inch disc) in the bottom of the sump of my Petter and they are good at catching the iron dust as it wears away. I caught the most fuzz after initially getting the engine and running with the first batch of clean lube oil that was not used for more than a few hours after I rebuilt the engine.
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rcavictim got it in one. For best effectiveness with a magnet you want:
1) reliable flow
2) at a low rate
3) in a thin layer
4) over the magnet
Putting them in the bottom of the barrel will make sure that anything that settles out is retained (certainly a good idea), but it will provide no guarantee that anything entrained won't stay in the oil. There are ferrous fines that are small enough that they will stay suspended in oil for months or years, and they are nothing but bad news in fuel.
Probably the perfect magnetic filter would be a thin rectangular cross-section passage with magnets on one of the long sides. As long as the flow rate and viscosity were low enough, you'd get essentially 100% of the ferrous fines onto the magnets.
On transmissions and splash-lubed crankcases, I put the magnet(s) inside in the splash pattern. Usually there's an inspection cover somewhere that makes a convenient magnet mount. I'll be putting several magnets in the bottom of the sump of my 6/1, and probably at least two on the inspection cover. On hydraulic systems, I stick them in the reservoir near the return line entrance. I stick them on the outside of spin-on oil filters, and in the return oil flow pattern on pressure-lubed crankcases.
There's no downside to the things as long as they're properly attatched. The worst thing that could happen would be failure to clean the swarf off in a sufficiently timely matter resulting in a chunk breaking off and washing around in the lube. That's one reason I generally put these where they can be inspected easily, or on a remove&replace component like an oil filter.