Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Straight Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: sodbust on March 03, 2007, 11:54:27 PM
-
Hello all.
I am a Lister nut, and am suprised I have not found this forum a long time ago.
I have a 6/1 GG
14/1 PS
28/2 PS
The 6, and 14 man a ST gen head
The 28 pulls my China 10 oil seed press.
Here is my web site about the press and my method of making bio diesel ,, easy!
www.oilcrusher.5u.com
Give me an email and say hello.
pvffarm@ruraltel.net
Daniel (Sodbust) McAmoil
Penokee, Kansas USA
-
Sodbust,
Welcome. Found your dilution process very interesting. How does the oil/unleaded ratio end up? I've been reluctant to introduce gasoline into my diesels, how many hours on your equipment? No troubles?
Bill
-
Danial, welcome.
I too, would like more information on your svo/gas mix, and your centrifuge project. Thanx for the link to your website, I found it very interesting!
Cheers, Fred
-
Thanks for sharing your research.
Read this page guys it all meat, no chaff.
http://www.oilcrusher.5u.com/whats_new.html
Quote from Dans site
"My first test was with #2 diesel right out of the pump. I made a testing stand which was a small electric motor powering a steel disc running in a tray of fuel. I made a 1 to 1 ratio pivot to hold a roller Bering roller against the wheel running in the fuel. I had a scale hook added to apply down pressure of the roller against the steel wheel powered by the small motor. #2 diesel would handle 4lbs of weight before stalling the motor. A mixture of 1 gallon of gas and 1 gallon of raw sunflower oil could support 16lbs of weight before stalling the motor. No problem here, as my winter blend is 5 gallons of sf oil to 1 gallon of unleaded gas. Summer ratios of 8 gallons sf oil to 1 gallon of gas.. So for engine upper lubrication, my fuel walks all over pump #2 diesel fuel."
Dan, if you want me quoting from your website here let me know and I'll delete it
Thanks, Geno
-
Very interesting!!!!! I have read about this before but have not tried the process as I have no way of pressing my own oil. Wonder how it would work with waste motor oil?
-
Welcome to the forum Daniel,
Here is my web site about the press and my method of making bio diesel ,, easy!
What your website describes is commonly called VO blending.
While I applaud your efforts at self sufficiency and understand your eagerness to "spread the word"
the process you describe does not produce biodiesel and calling it "biodiesel" tends to confuse people.
The biofuels movement does not need MORE misinformation to confuse people interested in joiningi in. There is plenty being shared currently.
I am sure it is not your intent to present misinformation or confuse people.
But some of the information on your webiste is interesting but not all that accurate.
For example:
It is not possible to experience a power gain (over diesel fuel) on this blend.
I suspect you have not tested this claim with a dynomometer.
There is no glycerine in VO.
Although the process of making (real) biodiesel does result in the production of some glycerols they are not being "removed" from the VO...they are being produced by the chemical reaction which created (real) biodiesel and THEN are removed.
You may also want to do some research on the studies done in North Dakota (and elsewhere) regarding shortened engine life and VO blends.
I hope I have not presented this in a manner that make you feel as if I have insulted you.
That is not my intent. I present this in th hope that you will take th opportunity to take a more scientific directionin your efforts and present more accurrate information on your website.
Not only will the people who choose to follow your lead be benefitted..I suspect you will benefit as well.
-
Hi Daniel,
First Welcome....
And I'm really impressed with your press and blending and website... great information...
I'd have to say I agree with Dana that calling your VO / RUG (regular unleaded gas) blend biodiesel is a bit misleading... but lots of folks call veggieoil fuel biodiesel.... Sometimes it's a little frustrating for us greaseburners... Dana and I and about 1,000 others regularly post on the infopop biodiesel forum...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc
You should visit... there's a lot of folks who would love to hear from you... and also a bunch of other blenders like yourself to collaborate with...
Anyhow, good luck, welcome and thanks for sharing your information...
John
-
Been trying to noodle through this one - alternate viewpoints welcome
Seems to me that the bottom line on power or efficiency increases from changes in fuel only, is increased cylinder pressure from a given amount of fuel. This might be come from quicker combustion or more energy content.
So lets say we have a genset capable of 4kw on standard fuel. If we use the +25% fuel and make the same 4kw then everything should be OK right. Same cyl pressures to drive the same load.
But if we use the +25% fuel to it's full potential and make 5kw can we not expect a shorter engine life?
I purposely left out lots of variables to keep it simple but feel free to bring them up.
My point is that if you are using a fuel that shows a significant increase in economy then you'd better be careful not to increase your loads
Bill
-
Hi Bill,
Not trying to be over critical but a 25% increase in power just by switching the fuel is a huge deal.... I use waste veg but I have also purchase new veg and have blended.... while the new oil does seem to have better performance I have never experienced this kind of radical change in output.
-
Hmmm I thought so too. Got that number from the website. Bill
-
While it would be great to achieve a 25% increase in output by a adding unleaded to vegetable oil, the math does not add up:
Vegetable oil contains 130000 BTU’s per gallon
#2 Diesel contains 140000 BUT’s pwe gallon
Unleaded gasoline contains 124000 BTU’s per gallon
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1015a.pdf
If you displace any portion of the veg oil with a lower btu value fuel (unleaded gas in this case) you reduce the total btu content of the fuel blend.
If the purpose of adding the unleaded is to reduce viscosity of the fuel, it would be more cost effective to reduce the viscosity by using heat. Heated injectors at 230-300f would bring the viscosity of the veg oil very close to that of #2 diesel. The cost of these heaters would be paid for quickly by eliminating the need to purchase unleaded gasoline.
Now there may be some chemical reaction I am unaware of going on here, but on the face it sounds like any increase in output should not be possible.
Scott
-
Hello again,,
I can see that I touched some with my concept, and a few insulted with my wrong wording for the label name for my fuel. I will digest this factor and rethink a name for my bio/fuel/mixture/gas/push -water.
I have not the access of a engine dino as such , but I came up with the next best item. I can see I need now to add this following data to my web site.
Early in my testing of my fuel, a friend came by one afternoon to see how my project was going. He was on his motor bike, and wanted to take 4 gallons of my mixture out to his irrigation engine. He figured there was about 400 gallons of fuel in the 1000 gallon tank and just wanted to sweeten the fuel with some lube. He made it out to his well site early the next morning and his fuel delivery man was already there toping off his tank. He added the 4 gallons of my mixture to the tank and the tank was then finished filled. Before the fellow could roll his hose back into the truck,, the well engine picked up 65 rpms.. They both stood there with the mouths hanging open.. Now anyone who understands diesel industrial engines knows that under a fixed load, any increase in power is not only carrying the load but then pushing the governor closed to slow it back to its set speed. Once an irrigation engine is warmed up and the load of the water being lifted 300 feet at 1100 gallons a minute, a engine will stay at it set speed with in 10 rpm or less, for days at a time.. So 4 gallons mixed with 996 gallons of #2 triggered this engine reaction. So later we used this 855 Cummins engine along with 2 outers, a Case IH 3.9L and a 7130 Magnum tractor running a pto shaft driven well. All engines were started running a 15 parts #2 and 1 part, my fuel gained from 27% to 33% in fuel savings using the same load and rpms. We are talking data over 20,000 hours running time under load. All the wells have gallon per minute meters and were all set at the same volume, and engine speeds. By going to a 30% blend,, no difference in performance. At 100% sf fuel, the gains dropped about 10% on all engines. The reason for this will be covered later.
Items of notation,, all the engines gained from 10% to 13% turbo boost. The exhaust temps dropped from 170f to 200f using the sf fuel. This is the first real head twister, as turbo gains in pressure is an offset of wasted heat. But the heat was less coming from the manifold to the turbo.. ? So I can only guess its still making pressure when the exhaust valve is opened.
Yes I agree, about the added performance and shorter engine life, but all the gauges are pointing to better engine life figures, and the engines run smoother.. This is my comparison.. Any one who ever fired a black powder rifle knows what I’m trying to say. A black power gun has a slower burn, and a steady increase in barrel pressure till the bullet leaves the end of the barrel. I almost makes a sound like a “thump”. Now smokeless powder is fast burning and makes a sharp “crack” when it goes off. In some testing there is almost an implosion factor happing when the bullet just exits the barrel. You can feel the difference with your shoulder! I feel what’s going on is this fuel I’m blending burns slower and longer at lower temps. The sound of a diesel running on my fuel has no ignition ping,, its more of a thud idling.
I have a semi, 11.1L 18 wheeler, with about 20,000 miles with my fuel. Pulling a 42 ton load, the difference in power is wonderful. I can now play tag with the bull haulers who are famous for running 500 to 600 hp in their cowboy caddies. It was hard for me to keep up with them in hilly country while empty before..
I understand the numbers about the BTU content of each fuel. It just not there! Now I am going to try to pass along the data several fuel chemists told me..
They started off explaining to me that for the last 15 years, they started to remove the polymers from the fuel (gas and diesel) to cover the demand for the plastic industry, and chemical company’s. They said that the polymers were a very important place holder in the element chain of the dino fuel. They also pointed out the fact that all dino fuel has a very large unbalance of carbon. “So with the veg oil,, loaded with hydrogen, and oxygen, and polymers,, which all react with the catalyst reaction with the RUG,, making a super fuel”. The combustion is not totally dependent of the oxygen in the compressed cylinder air, there is oxygen microns laid right along with the carbon, and hydrogen in the fuel.. Overwhelming..
Now for my reply about all the collage testing done from the mid 1970s into the 1980s.. I have read hundreds of them. They get the idea of running veg oil in a diesel engine. The then hit on John Deere and Cummins to have a free test engine. Fill the tank with SVO, and load it up.. Bingo, 50 hours the engine fails due to stuck piston rings and a torched piston. The conclusion,, it does not work. Well they are right. It will not work. I can tell with in a day if my mixture is too weak, as my engine oil carbons up from clear oil one day to a black slime the next. That’s what I refer to as a wake up call.
Now for the fellows using the 2 tank system and are heating veg oil.. Great! I can not do that as to many of my engines are computer controlled pumps.. The heat over 200f will toast the wiring inside the pumps. Been there and done that some $1975.00 later !
Now another item that has happened. I had a horse trader cowboy from west Okla., call me one night… He was not a farmer, nor had time to press seeds. He had 3 Duramax Chevys pulling horses all over the USA. He said the $3.00 fuel was killing his profits. “What can I do he pleaded”. Well off the top of my head ,, I told him to go to the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank.. Well he called me several days later, wanting to pay me for my help. He said his pu went from 12mpg to 18mpg on his first tank.
Another bit of data.. We started to use a B2 blend years ago from my fuel supplier. I could see a gain in performance. Went to a B5 and then to a B20.. With the B20,, I lost power. Had to shift back a gear with my tractors. So when I started to get constant results with all my engines, and some 20 other friends testing for me also,, I ran into my fuel man in town one day.. I knew he was running a B50 blend in his fuel delivery truck. I told him to add a few gallons of RUG, and let me know how it ran.. He was almost dancing in the streets. His fuel mileage jumped from 9mpg up to 13mpg.
And to the ones worried about gas in a diesel,, we have use some gas in our #2 for 3 generations on the farm in the winter. Some 600,000 hours of use over the last 80 years. Not one pump failure other than the one I cooked using heated veg oil.
I hope this clears up some issues.. I can not explain it, other than something magic is happing.. It goes beyond common understanding of BTU content and all that..
Take care,
Daniel,, sodbust.
-
Daniel,
thanks for the write up, it seems almost too simple to be real and the results certainly do. That being said, it wouldn't be a hard thing for anyone to try out since all the ingredients are easily obtainable and no strange processing is required.
I'll have to ponder it, I don't see how it could harm the internals on a diesel engine the way diesel fuel in a gasoline engine will.
thanks
Robert
-
Robert.
Up to about 10 years ago,, we got a 80%gasoline/20%#1 diesel blend ,, which the fuel sales called "Power Fuel" It ran great in lower compression tractor engines with allot of intake heat. With a mid 1960s car engine, with 8.5 to 1 compression,, one would have to retard the timing 3 to 5 degrees to control the ping.. The fuel supplier sold it $0.10 to $0.20 a gallon cheaper than regular gas.
I must have been raised in an area where anything goes?
Daniel
-
This sounds very very interesting, Any where ya can save a nickel, withoiut damaging equioment always get's my attention.
My current genset is a Jianyang model ZH1125 (looks just like a changfa) powering a ST15. But I have a listeroid 6/1 on the way to carry lighter loads..
I am in the process of setting up a woodgas/diesel. The diesel part is to be used a pilot to ignite the gas once warmed up and running, (Thanks Doug! Your past posts have been an inspiration)
Back to the topic at hand , blending the fuels as above I told him to go to the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank..
The cost at today's prices yields aboout a 2% cost increasefor the blend over #2 diesel.. (veg oil $4.00 gallon, gas $2.59 /gal, #2 diesel $2.59 gallon)
Most of the literature I can find claims once set up, the diesel is 80% replaced by the woodgas. I guess, My question is whether one would expect to see this same savings in dual fuel setup... meaning use even 25% less diesel... The end result could be only 15% diesel used for a hard cost saving..
Can the group show me if I am headed down the right road on my thinking?
Also,. How would one go about finding a supply of $1.00 a gallon vegetable oil in quantity?
Steve
-
Steve,
I have played some with wood gas.. but since trees are few out here on the high plains of Kansas, I dropped the project.
Yes, a 15% to 20% diesel will trigger off the wood gas mixture.
As for veg oil costs,, where I grow my own and press, its factoring right at $1.05 a gallon.
As for the cost of buying the veg oil and useing it as a fuel additive,, the cost saveings of the additive, pays out almost a 20% saveings over just buying #2 dino.. My banker is useing my sf/blend as a fuel additive in his gas pu.. He says it gaining him right at 3.5 mpg and with the cost of my additive at $7 a gallon, he feels the return on investment of almost 140% over the additive cost.. He just uses about a quart per 20 gallons.
Daniel sodbust
-
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for the info... I've blended but usually with WVO... Right now I'm running new oil... I'll try adding some RUG and see how it works... I've been running veg for the last several years... I started heating the injector lines to improve the combustion... it's works pretty good... now I'll give your mix a go....maybe I have something to learn... Thanks again...
-
Hi all,
I thought I'd give the sodbust cocktail a try... and report with some results... I've been using the mix for the ladst couple months in my 97 Cummins / dodge and my 03 TDI...so far everything's been great... here's the recepie... new veg oil 60% / RUG 10%/ diesel / 30% while I haven't experienced a mileage gain... I would say the power is as good or better than diesel... engines start fine too...
I'll keep it up and get back with more info in a few months...
-
One of the problems VO fuels has is that nearly any VO blend will "work" as a fuel for diesel engines in warm climates. In warm climates most will even start and run OK and not exhibit a noticable loss in available power using VO fuels. And so many will ASSUME that if an engine runs on a fuel it "works" OK as a fuel. But later...when problems show up they are not usually as eager to share this with the folks who may have taken their "it works great" advice.
So I am taking the time to provide the associated disclaimer/warning that seems obvious to me..but may not be as obvious to a newbie. All the long term studies on VO and VO blends used in unmodified fuel systems have ended when the engines used for testing developed serious problems that indicated catastrophic engine damage would result if used much longer. My own experience and that of dozens of individuals that have contacted me with requests on how to cope with developing ring/groove/land coking appears to bear this out in practical use siituations as well. Although VO fuel and VO/solvent blends combust enough to provide power much as diesel fuel does in an engine not yet up to operating temperature or with significantly decreased piston ring sealaing capability due to engine wear VO fuel and VO/solvent blends are not fuels suitable for long term operation due mostly to coking of upper ring/lands/grooves.
If you are planning to use vo fuel or a VO/solvent blend as a fuel in a diesel engine with an unmodified fuel system there are precautions you should take to allow yourself some warning that upper ring/lands/groove coking has accumulates to the point that immediate action must be taken to avoid serious secondary damage to the engine. While using VO fuel or blends in a diesel with unmodified fuel system is possible it is just not a good long term economic choice. The costs associated with ASSUMING that VO fuel or VO/solvent blends are the equivalent of diesel fuel are just too high.
-
As usual Dana Lindscoot is taking the conservative approach... He's been preaching this same thing for the last 4 years but has never posted a picture or given any real data about his experiences...
For the record the are several folks who have logged over 200K miles using the blend technique... Dana knows this and still says it doesn't work...
-
I am aware of one person who claims to have logged over 130K on a blend. He has a very unusualy circumstance in that he puts an unusually high number of miles on each day and so very little time is spend runnign the blend in an engine not yet up to operating temp. He has not kept any records that might indicate if his engine is exhibinitng any of the common indications of ring/land/groove coking. The majority of individuals I have know and advised who have attempted to use a blend in a single tank conversion have had problems cosistant with what the results formal studies on blends down to 5% VO had.
I am conservative in my advice. I think tha this is expected of people who do provide prressional advice in any field that is considered emergine or experimental technology. My paying clients expect and appreciate my conservative approach...and for the most part those who recieve my conservative advice for free also appreciate the fact I value their engines enough to encourage great care be used in any conversion. Those who want to take significant chances are welcome to..but I do not feel it is doing them a service to not at least warn them that experience has shown there are methods with high success ratios..and those with low success ratios. I do not make a distinction between my level of responsibility for advice I am paid for and that I provide for free.
I repeat.blends will "work" as fuel..but by and large blends are not an acceptable substitute for diesel fuel IMO as accellerated ring/land coking is nearly inevitable unless the engine is warmed to operating temperature before the blend is introduced to the fuel injection system. This is learly not saying it "does not work" it is merely saying that there are unintended consequences of using it as simply a diesel fuel substitute.
Fatty has engaged in posting baits and flames aimed at me on other forums to the point of being moderated. I see no reason to encourage that type of behavior on this forum by responding to any posts that appear to be simply ax grinding. I hope the forum members will understand and appreciate this position.
-
first of all an appology to both of you in advance,, but i find this to be an interesting arguement.
on the one hand we seem to have those who think running veggie oil is just fine, and will cause no problems
on the other we have the camp that reports test results done with veggie oil as a fuel, and advising caution
i find myself in the middle, mainly because of my experience and because of my intended use.
what is interesting is there was a fellow on here that used the term biodiesel for a process where he blended veggie oil with regular gas
and he was pretty much picked apart for his idea's and reporting. the thing is,, he came up with some sound reasoning on an approach that
bares a closer analysis.
while i would agree that there are some folks getting by quite well with some applications burning veggie oils there is also alot of evidence of damage
caused by the use of these fuels,
temperature certainly is a valid component, but i wonder if the gentleman that i referred to had it right in that the damage is caused by
the basic chemistry of veggie fuel, wherein it is changed when mixed with regular gasoline.
what i am certain of, is the glycerin component among others might very well be the stuff that gum's up rings and causes problems, so far i have
seen no lab testing to show what the cause is.
for a diyer to use pure veggie oil, the unknowns become problematic when often times the engines are run at low or part loading and temperatures are
hard to maintain.
if you can be assured of keeping the engine up to temp, under a good steady load, with preheated veggie then you might be successful.
and i would tend to agree with Fattywagon on the ability to use it successfully.
if on the other hand if you cannot be assured of fulfilling these parameters, i am with Dana,,, i wouldnt recommend its use over the long term
there just isn't a large enough body of evidence to support its use without issues, and there is some body of evidence to damage being caused.
what would be interesting is to hear more from the gentleman from kansas, and his process. perhaps more testing by other folks would show
that there is some middle ground to where this type of fuel can be used by all without engine damage concerns.
so far his reports and testing with a 11 liter diesel (cummins) tractor have shown great promise without any detrimental effects.
clearly there is room here for discussion, testing and debate
bob g
-
Hi Bob,
I think it's interesting since some folks are advocating adding 5% biodiesel mix to diesel.. B5... others advocate a 20% mix... B20.... some go all the way to 100% B100.
Most folks pushing biodiesel don't advocate using SVO... they use scare tactics like engine damage to keep folks thinking it doesn't work... but a 40-60 mix of new VO and diesel fuel will operated without incident in most engines an a warm climate...
Here's my story...
over 4 years ago I purchased an old benz for $150.. I did some modification to the fuel system and started running 100% SVO in it... I had a heated filter and fuel line but one day I noticed the engine ran better when the injector lines were hot... so I made some resistance heaters for them.. I was the first to make / sell an electric heater for the injector lines... I posted my experiences on a forum... Immediately Dana came along and said this was useless and didn't work... I did tail pipe testing of CO and HC's and found them lower with the heaters on... Dana said the results were flawed because I didn't use a diesel tailpipe tester... I'm sure you can figure that a tailpipe tester doesn't care if the engine is gasoline or diesel...
Now Dana also makes and sells injector line heaters.... so go figure...
well with all that said to date over 1,000 folks have purchased the fatywagon heaters and swear by them... I can tell you from experience SVO can be used in a single tank in an IDI benz and it has given me over 150K miles of service on an old worn out engine..
Can 100% SVO be used successfully for start up in a DI engine?
My answer is yes... but you need to make some modifications... heated injector, heated injector lines and I have found that modifying the piston helps with making sure the combustion is more complete...
Bit these days my time is limited so I have been trying blends on my DI vehicles... so far very successfully... do I have 300,000 miles on the blends? no I do not... But I do have about 20K on them... and so far so good..
Now the Dana factor...
Any time there's a post like sodbust made Dana intrudes and trys to become the authority... This is often frustrating since he offers no proof of his accomplishments or back up for his credentials... He claims to make his money converting fleets of commercial trucks to SVO... But no one has ever verified his claims and he offers no pictures or testimony... the only thing he has ever posted a picture of was an old boat gas tank that he made a heater for.. Not to be critical but it looked like something my 11 year old could cobble together... when I started preaching the benefits of CHP he jumped on that bandwagon... He claims to have a bank of 2 cylinder listeroids making power with over 15K hours on SVO... so far no proof or pics... personally I don't like being lied to and I'm fairly certain Dana has concocted some whoppers... If I continue contributing here it is likely Dana and I will fight / argue and it's not good for me or the forum... So if he continues posting I will likely leave...
-
If I continue contributing here it is likely Dana and I will fight / argue and it's not good for me or the forum... So if he continues posting I will likely leave...
Fatty, don't leave, if you have pictures/proof, in other words, people can see that you're not concocting results, if your ideas are clearly documented, why should you leave? If you're right, and Dana is wrong, then you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling
-
I second the motion, Don't let an undocumented unsubstantiated poster such as Dana spoil your day.. There are plenty of us "LURKERS" who read and do understand the difference between sound advice and "broken record" repeats and disclaimers from such as Dana.
Faty , this is a question for you, I was running my 6/1 lister (metro) and decided to try it on SVO (from Walmart in the 1 gallon jug) . The engine was up to temp and had been producing over 20 amps 230v for about 6 hours.. I drained thje diesel while it was running, and put in the gallon of vegetable oil..
It appeared to run about the same except for the diesel knock.. It became much more noticable almost to the point that I was becoming alarmed and again replaced the fuel back with Diesel. . Do you experience similar KNOCK with your applications?
thanks
Steve
-
Fattys axe grinding has led him to post more an mroe disinformation..especially about me. I do not make or sell injector line heater. I do buy and use them in large quantities though. The injector line heaters that Fatty developed were primitive and much less effective and safe than those being devolped by another person. He tested and changed his designe for optimal performace over a period of 1 1/2 years. He began with something very similar to Fattys basic design but chose to deveop it into a better product over that period. They were released about the same time and I chose and reccomended the better (IMO) injector line heaters. Fatty felt slighted and has been grinding his ax ever since.
Fatty does not put a high value on research and development and testing. I do.
Therefore when Fatty says "it works" it means something very different than when I do. My main goal in converting is to not shorten engine life AND use VO fuel. I take into consideration the great varaition climate and WVO charactheristics that are common in North America. Fatty does not. I make a living advising large consumers of diesel fuel on how to most effectively and safely convert to VO fuel. They expect me to not take unneccesary chances with their trucks engines. They appreciate my caution. Aned that cation is the result of becoming as familiar with VO fuel use as possible. I have done this not only by aquiring and studdying all of the research avaialbe on the subject (which in itself cost several thousand dollars) but also by experimenting and helping others to experiment with VO fuel and VO fuel conversions.
In other words I have approached this in a scientific and professional manner.
You will find that most professionals in any industry tend to be a bit more cuatious than those who do it on the hobbiest level. If you prefer information that does not incude any cautions ask a hobbiest.
And if you want only information from hobbiests then simply make it unpleasant for those who maek a living in the profession being discussed.
Bob...I think you misunderstand my position.
on the one hand we seem to have those who think running veggie oil is just fine, and will cause no problems
on the other we have the camp that reports test results done with veggie oil as a fuel, and advising caution
I think that running veggie is "just fine" but you cannot expect it to work as an exact substitute for diesel. In other words if you just pour it in the fuel tank (assuming you live in a warm climate) it will act as a fuel for a diesel engine. But there will be short and long term consequences to ignoring the fact it is not diesel fuel. Those of us that have studied these consequences developed ways to combat them one by one. The short term consequence fixes were first and long term one of course took longer. 15 years ago there was a very small body of knowledge and all of the "pioneers" in VO fuel were essentially pouring in VO and once something bad happened trying researching who to avoid it ..adn trying again. Many..including Fattywagon seem to be at the point that we were at when we first began experimenting. And for some reason they resent when those of us that have been doing this for along time urge caution and then try to expalin why. We do this so they do not have to take 5 or ten years to "discover" what we did 5 or 10 years ago.
But Fatty..and a few others do not appreciate any advice..especially that urging them to do more research before declaring quick success...and later discovering ..as we did that it was not as successful as originally thought. It is very hard to do long term research on diesel engines. One may invet hundreds of hours and thousands of $ in a test that takes years to cuminate. And often they are only successful in that they demonstrate one needs to try a different approach.
So...here is the deal. If you do not want me to provide ANYadvice just tell me..I will be happy to stop posting here. But if you do want me to present advice you must accept that it will be cautious advice that respects the fact that it is not your intent to ruin your engine...only run it on VO fuel. You will also have to accept that I will challenge what I believe to be inaccurate information.
-
May I suggest that both Fatty and Dana take the high road and both continue posting. The internet is a vast source of information, some accurate some not. I believe most of the people on this board have enough independence and intelligence to develop their own opinions on various topics. Including the debate over 2 tons of concrete vs resilient mounts, VO/WVO, biodiesel in a modified or unmodified engine as well as other unconventional fuel mixtures.
What I would like to see more of, from anyone willing, is hard data of power output and consumption rates of any and all fuel people want to spend the time testing. In the end, the real world numbers make it easy to determine which option is best in a given situation.
So Fatty and Dana put your differences aside and get along, you are after all both adults right?
Scott
-
So Fatty and Dana put your differences aside and get along, you are after all both adults right?
From prior experience I had best just ignore the personal jabs that Fatty makes.
And since I will be unable to devote any time posting for several weeks any way the animosity may just die on its own by the time I return.
-
personally i think that both of you should be allowed to argue your points however you see fit, and....
i also believe the dude from nw kansas has a place at the table of debate as well.
also i have absolutely no problem with a debate that gets heated, and blunt,,, often times alot is accomplished
in doing so,,, it makes both sides think hard, and it also makes other folks do more thinking as well.
as with everything there are at least two sides to every debate,
i for one would be very interested if following a months long debate on the subject, GuyF and myself (among many others) spent perhaps tens of thousands of
key strokes in the debate on engine mounting,,, the end result was a better understanding of both idea's when it comes to engine mounting.
i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.
remember the famous line from snl?
(dan akroid to jane curtain)
"jane you ignorant slut!"
so don't get mad at one another or make it personal, neither of you should be married to your position, just support
your positions and continue the debate.
there is too much to be learned in the process for many folks that reside here,, me included!
bob g
-
i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.
I just don't have the time to waste at that type of activity Bob.
fatty inevitably makes it personal veryquickly by making unsupportable claims about me. he will not debate the facts. And the facts have already been posted many times in several forums. Repeating the arguments serves no good purpose. And considering the current demands on my time..both professional and that of family I simply cannot devote time to responding to personal attacks.
-
Sodbust is almost certainly in the process of prepping thousands of acres which will soon be planted. He may use more gallons of fuel this season than all the members here use in a year. With all the $ he's got tied up in equipment I'm sure he'll have a look at his stuff and that will mean more to me than anything. The research he did was thourough and scientific. He's also not selling anything, he's giving it away.
Thanks, Geno
-
i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.
I just don't have the time to waste at that type of activity Bob.
fatty inevitably makes it personal veryquickly by making unsupportable claims about me. he will not debate the facts. And the facts have already been posted many times in several forums. Repeating the arguments serves no good purpose. And considering the current demands on my time..both professional and that of family I simply cannot devote time to responding to personal attacks.
I said it before and will say it again........
.......you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling
Anyone that posts info as facts should be able to back up those facts, doesn't have to be a 2 foot long post, even a couple of meaningful links are usually sufficient, I don't think you'd have to take it out of your family. If theories are posted they should be posted as such, the readers of this forum have the intelligence to make their own decisions, if they don't they shouldn't be here in the first place
-
I said it before and will say it again........
.......you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling
Anyone that wnat to take the trouble to track down this information usually can. Although the archives of the vo conversion forums have become harder and harder to search this has all been presented there before.
If you want links that might help you find this information I can provide a link to a "forum" that is really a place where that info is being gathered in an indexed form and will not be overwhelmed and buried in "chat" and repetitive posts from newbies and those who with to do nothing but argue. Unfortunately most of the forma studies are not public and are copyrighted...so theymust be purchased if one wishes to veiw them.
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics
It is indexed so it is easy to search and you will find links to more informationin most of the posts related to this discussion.
I will be gone for 2 weeks moving my father from a short term nursing home to my sisters home 1500 miles away. I t is much more involved than it sounds. So it may be up to 3 weeks before I check back. I hope that you will apply this standard to all who choose to enter the discussion. It is usually just applied to me in such discussions.
A more indepth tutorial on conversion is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1717671
A discussion on the differences between single tank and two tank conversions is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1561329
An indexed discussion on individual conversion components with links to vendors is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=55421 (http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=55421 )
-
Anyone who is curious about how Dana and I play together should do a search injector line heaters over on the infopop forum...
For the record I have posted hundreds of pictures of various experiments and products, and how to's on how to make various stuff like heated fuel lines and even the injector line heaters...... I am not stingy with my informaton... Visit my old web site www.fattywagons.com for some pics and info...
When Ken aka akghound had his lister's exhaust valve seize up due to running WVO in cold weather I sent him a heater to test for free... I figure a single cylinder engine is the best thing for testing... As far as I know the engine has ran fine ever since... His home did burn a while ago so I'm not sure what is going on with Ken... BTW I sent him a heater some time (6 months or more) before Dana ever offered an injector line heater...
I have also posted scientific data such as tailpipe testing results... It seems nothing I do will satisfy Dana... but the frustrating thing is I've never seen any photos or results of his testing... just that grimey old boat tank...
Bob, why don't you ask him about the bank of listeroids with over 15K hours on SVO or the fleets of trucks he has converted.... Good luck getting any real info... Since he has decided to post here I will leave for a while... I've enjoyed discussing engine with you all...
John
-
I get pissed off when flaming begins and people leave....
It makes it that much harder for me because now I have to repeat mistakes rather than learn from people
-
Oh, for the days when people just went out behind the barn and got it over and done with.
-
Oh, for the days when people just went out behind the barn and got it over and done with.
Amen!
It makes it that much harder for me because now I have to repeat mistakes rather than learn from people
Although I have to devote more and more time to paying customers all the time I try to also support those experimenting with or trying to learn more about VO fuel conversion on the hobbiest level. Please let me know if you post anything and would like me to post what experience I may have had relating to that post. It is always my hope that others can learn from my experiences and hopefully avoid repeating the exact failures I have had. I may not notice new posts so an email with a link to any post you want my input on will be helpful.
As to those who just want to pick a fight on any forum....it got old a long time ago. If someone wants to grind an axe they can have at it anytime....I just don't feel any obligation to respond.
-
Over the last couple of months, I have been following this subject with interest. Myself, I've gone the two tank wvo route. Others may elect to use bio-diesel, a blended fuel, woodgas, or diesel. What has impressed me about this forum overall, is the diversity of backgrounds of the members, and the solutions they bring to the table. This diversity has in many discussions, giving me a variety of points of view, which I otherwise might not have considered. This is how forums work at their best. With few exceptions, I have found the members to be mostly open to listen to others ideas and practices, as long as their not based on BS. What I have gotten and value most, are the lessons learned through experience. I believe, none of us has a complete handle on every aspect of this or any other subject. Just my opinion. The bottom line is we can generally learn something from each other. Now back to the subject at hand. Regarding wvo, I don't know of anyone who would use it without first doing something to bring it viscosity down near diesel, either by blending or heating. And the consensus seems to be, don't introduce straight wvo to an engine, unless the engine has been warmed up. I believe the use of it in a stationary engine genset, like the lister type, is a much more controlled, with fewer complications then a mobile arrangement such as a vehicle. In my case, the engine sits in an insulated room where temperature and load are easily controlled, in an environment that periodic maintenance and even repair can easily be performed. To be honest, I don't know the long term effects of using this fuel. I do everything I can to insure that it is well filtered and dewatered before being used. I will periodically pull the head for decoking. At the same time, I will inspect rings and cylinder for wear and or build up. I will then adjust my maintenance intervals based on what is observed. Over time, a body of data and experiences will be available for sharing to others. I only hope we all allows other to share their lessons in whatever course they take, and learn from their experiences. Honestly, the worth of this forum is diminished if we prevent the free flow of ideas and experiences to take place. Just my opinion.
-
Ok..but I am not sure if this means that those of us with extennsive experience should speak up when we see misinformation presented or not.
Unfortunately misinformation usually comes from those who are relativly new to the field and are simply very excited about the possibilities. I am sure they do not intend to present misinformation...they are just a bit over enthusiastic and have not bothered to thorouly check to see if what they think they are seeing...which is often liittle more than wishful thinking..iis backed up ro contradicted by the body of knowledge established up to this point.
I really do hate to quash enthusiasm..but then again if unrealistic claims and/or misinformation is presented adn not a single person speaks up to question it...it becomes a "factiod" that then tends to screw up anyone who depends upon it as factual.
So....do you want those with lots of experience to speak up in cases such as this...or remain silent?
-
danalinscott -
I definitely want those with the most experience to contribute. I'm not saying to sit by and give a pass to unsubstantiated claims. I'm just saying that sometimes exploring the subtle differences in process and application can be worthwhile.
The claim of 25% performance gain was eyepopping, to say the least. Although my knowledge is limited in this regard, I was hoping for more discussion concerning the chemistry, or lack of. On the face, this doesn't appear possible, but I have yet to consult with a chemist. Trying to enlist Sodbust chemist sources to participate in this discussion, may have been interesting.
Regarding use and wear, I believe my own genset application may have more in common with farm equipment then the typical motor vehicle use. Like farm equipment, my genset is running long hours under fairly constant load. I would guess longer distance tractor trailer operation would also be a similar application. Your experience in retrofitting tractor trailers and any resultant reliability data, would have my interest My own experiences, have made me cautious when it comes to generalizations. Sometimes slight alterations in conditions, yield considerably different outcomes. I also bear responsibly for listening on the sidelines, and not actively probing, when the discussion was active.
-
The claim of 25% performance gain was eyepopping, to say the least. Although my knowledge is limited in this regard, I was hoping for more discussion concerning the chemistry, or lack of. On the face, this doesn't appear possible, but I have yet to consult with a chemist. Trying to enlist Sodbust chemist sources to participate in this discussion, may have been interesting.
This was established long ago to be physically impossible. There is simply not as many BTUs in VO as in diesel. And adding VO to diesel fuel as a blend lowers the available BTUs. It woudl fall into the classification of miracle additive if one claims that adding VO somehow increases power/mileage while at the same time the available energy in a gallon is being lowered.
Regarding use and wear, I believe my own genset application may have more in common with farm equipment then the typical motor vehicle use. Like farm equipment, my genset is running long hours under fairly constant load. I would guess longer distance tractor trailer operation would also be a similar application.
Actually although field tractors and tractor traielrs might seem to be constant duty engines and so very similar to gensets they are not. The load is not nearly as constant as with a genset under most conditions and so the flamefront carachteristics inside the conbustion chamber are significantly different. Significant enough that the extra modifications often needed on a diese powereing a generator or pump are not required on either usually.
I am usually willing to involve myself in a discussion on a subject that has not already been discussed to death somewhere else. The one exception is when a poster decides to start making personal attacks. I have learned to simply ignore those that do if the moderator is not moderating personal attacks out. I barely have the time avaialble to participate in fourms when I feel my participation may make a positive difference. Participating in personal attacks...flamefests..is rarely productive and so rarely have a positive outcome. Generally they simply result in fewer willing to particiapte in the discussion....especially those with significant experience to share.
-
The load is not nearly as constant as with a genset under most conditions and so the flamefront carachteristics inside the conbustion chamber are significantly different. Significant enough that the extra modifications often needed on a diese powereing a generator or pump are not required on either usually.
I'm not sure what is meant by "extra modifications". Could you expand on this point?
-
I'm not sure what is meant by "extra modifications". Could you expand on this point?
Sure. But the info will be buried here since it is so off topic.
Please post your question at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1710537 so others can find the info easier later.
Dana
-
Danial, welcome.
I too, would like more information on your svo/gas mix, and your centrifuge project. Thanx for the link to your website, I found it very interesting!
Cheers, Fred
Fred,
This post is essentially a "bump" to bring it back to the top of the list. Sorry all but I think some of this information should (or could) answer
Fred's question in the thread where he asked about blending veggie, dino and acetone.
I guess I really mean the first half dozen posts, not the "war" between Fattywagon and Dana Linscott that follow.
Vic
-
Hello all,
Sorry for being gone so long, but lack of a labor pool and a big farm had me all tied up this summer.
Still into fall harvest, but ran over a deer horn and smoked a combine tire first thing today. So some time off today. Calling all deer hunters!!! We have mule deer out here that would dress out at 800 lbs.
I had a some great phone calls over the summer and had time to run some dyno tests as such.
Regarding the phone calls,, several from some top fuel chemists and there overview on my system leads them to think that with the slower burning unleaded gas along with the hydogen based fuel from veg oil is doing somthhing un knowen inside the engine at injection. They feel there is a second flame front going on which is lowering EGT by 200f and pumping up the turbo 15%.. I have added more testing results on my web site, www.oilcrusher.5u.com under the detail of testing page.
Due to the higher market value of sf seeds this fall, and the amount of meal I can use with my cattle,, I sold most of my sf production this year. What I am doing is using my sf fuel as an additive to normal #2 diesel. The bang Im getting is a constant 30 to 35% fuel savings. That amounts to about 50 gallons a day less fuel I have to buy for my combine in one day. Just 10% seems to complety change the fuel and give me my added return.
The only dynos we have out here are field water pumping engines. A constant load, with a gallon per minute meter to re set for another test. I feel it is a very constant load and made for a solid testing platform. The pet engine I had use of is a 3.9L Cunmins running right at 1850 rpms pumping 1500 gallon per minute of water from 250 feet deep. Starting with a pre heated engine, loading it the same between tests I feel I came up with some useable data.
The little Cummins carried its normal load at 3.8 gph running on #2 farm diesel. The EGT was a steady 820f and had 8 lbs turbo boost. Running a 20% blend of my sf fuel to #2 diesel the engine fuel use dropped to 2.6 gph and the EGT dropped to 612f with the turbo boost at 12 lbs.
I understand that the btu numbers do not match the performance, and how does one gain turbo pressure with lower EGT.. I know.. But its happening.
Daniel
-
Hi Sodbust ,
You are getting a drop in EGT because you are getting more hp out of the engine with petrol in veg oil , because you are burning the fuel more efficiently with the petrol in veg oil , so you produce more hp which produces more exhaust gases and pressure which spins the turbo faster which gives u more PSI which raises the compression which produces more hp ,and is a full circle , so the egt drops because your engine needs less power to drive the same load .
I had the same thing on my 10 hp petteroid get set with a 8 kva alternator on it , it would only produce 22 amps with the EGT of 350 deg c before it would drop off in the rpm .
Then I raised the compression up to 18 to 1 from 16 to 1 and when I fire it up after I had done this , the EGT at 22 amps was 300 deg c , I could not figure out why the EGT was lower than before and then it came to me I was producing more power so I need more load , so I keep loading it untill the rpm started to drop off and that was 33 amps at 515 deg c .
So you can see if the engine is burning the fuel better it produces more hp out of the same fuel , any one that plays around with race engine will tell u this .
Danalinscott is not right you can experience a power gain on this blend , a engine only burns a percentage of the fuel and the rest goes out the exhaust , combustion engines are not very efficient so if you can make them more efficient by burning the fuel better you get more power, petrol is more explosive than diesel so it burns the diesel better and more cylinder pressure I would say .
craigc .
-
Looks promising. Part that worries me is the wide open high HP, high speed open belts and pulleys ready to maim or kill.
-
Is it still safe to heat the fuel lines ?
O yes,hello Sodbust :)
-
Hello all,, sorry I have been gone so long, but farming,, a major computer crash, and other factors have limited my time to get back..
Well up to date, I'm over 15,000 gallons of sunflower fuel/rug mixture crushed, made and consumed. No problems at all.. Had a great sunflower harvest this fall, so should be back to 100% farm grown fuel for 2009..
Over the summer, I had a phone call from a fellow in Ohio.. He has been working with burning water in a diesel engine for the last 20 years.. He has a dyno and has real numbers to back his claims and called me to ask how I felt my fuel would work with his "water" to gain more than just a few minutes life from his Bosh injector pump for added lubrication.. Anyway,, as it turns out he has a good friend who works at Cummins, in there EPA testing lab.. They have an engine there that has a movie camera built into the head to be able to watch the combustion in the chamber when it fires. He said they can take 1 power stroke and stretch it out to be a 20 minute movie..
Well they took my fuel mixture and tried it in the test engine. It was set up with 1965 tec head and piston shape.. ( ie a 1965 Cummins engine) He said when the injector fired,, everything looked normal. The flame front grew,, and expanded just like with diesel fuel. BUT WHEN the piston got down the stroke about 1/2 way,, they saw a blue glow start at the piston head and expand back up towards the head. It was still expanding at the point the ex valve opened. The fellows in the lab took readings and it passed TEIR 4 epa standards with ease. There idea is that the pressure/time factor is allowing a second combustion of the hydrogen in the veg oil.. MMMmmmmmm?????
This would help explain the added turbo pressure gain,, with lower egt temps???
Over the past year I have taken and switched back and forth from just #2 diesel and back to my bends from 10% and up to 100%,, rug sunflower fuel. Every time I got my 20 to 30% gain in mpg, hp and performance.
I have now over 2200 people who have contacted me the last several years, and are now giving me allot of feedback from used cooking oil,, new cooking oil, to waste motor oil and raw veg oil. From soybeans to canola, to peanuts and cotton seed... All are happy and getting along fine as long as they are using the hydrometer to mix there fuel.. The few that do not, are having off and on engine problems.. So far no one has trashed an engine but one farmer came real close.!
Now,, here is a point of interest.. People who are using cooking oil are not showing gains,, and if so just under 10% using my system of making fuel.. I feel it boils down to the fact that cooking oil,, or 99.8% of it has been hydrogenated. The companies do this to control clouding of the oil,, or settling and added shelf life. What ever is going on seems to change the chemistry of the raw oil to something that loses its performance magic using it as fuel... Are they cooking out the oxygen,, or hydrogen???? Or is the conditioning locking this all up so it is not usable as a fuel???? Any chemist here to help out?
Almost done with fall harvest, so will start to have more time to invest around here.
sodbust.
-
Robert.
Up to about 10 years ago,, we got a 80%gasoline/20%#1 diesel blend ,, which the fuel sales called "Power Fuel" It ran great in lower compression tractor engines with allot of intake heat. With a mid 1960s car engine, with 8.5 to 1 compression,, one would have to retard the timing 3 to 5 degrees to control the ping.. The fuel supplier sold it $0.10 to $0.20 a gallon cheaper than regular gas.
I must have been raised in an area where anything goes?
Daniel
Howdy Daniel
In the late 70's dad used to mix up to 25% diesel in his gas car because it was so much cheaper than gas at the time. This is the first time I have heard of anyone other than us doing it. In the summer I run a quart of diesel to a tank in my 93 ford festiva and get better power and about a 5mpg increase. Taking me from 40mpg to 45mpg. My brother is doing the same in his ford Aspire and getting close to 50mpg. My youngest brother runs it in flex fuel doge caravan and gets a 4mpg increase but he has to be careful as the fuel density meter in the tank tends to lean it out. We also tried it in my dad's 2002 V6 F150 but had no change in power or mileage.
I also want to thank you for all the good info on your site! I am running a 20hp chingfa generator and gummed up the rings or valves and lost compression. Running WVO with diesel secret my dad bought from a guy at work. I got it running and ran seafoam in the #2 fuel and engine oil and got my compression back. I am going to get the hydrometer you suggested and try mixing it with RUG as you said. I was thinking the guy that sold it did not clean it enough or did something wrong.
I am now starting to look into building a fuel centrifuge. But I do not know anything about them yet much less what is out there and what would work best for 300 gal or so a year. But if some of my projects start to pan out my usage may goto 1500-2000 a year. I have one brother that is a master fabricator and runs a lazer pattern burner and the other does tool and die work. While i am a dirt worker and generally do finish dozer work.
We also have a 6 ton seed press. But our farming skills need lots of work. We planted 15 acers of sunflowers two years ago but the deer got them all. And this year we tried soybeans. But we did not test the soil and I think it was too acidic and they came up a light pale green and did not grow well.
Billy
-
Hello folks..
I understand that the older one gets,, the faster time moves and the less I seem to get done. But this year with farming was a constant battle. So my time to invest in keeping up with the chat rooms was all but taken away..
I'm still crushing and still burning sf "blended fuel' with 100% good results. Working in the little dieselcraft centrifuge made the largest difference of any part of the system. All my friends who saw the improvement in the fuel also got a centrifuge going now and feel the same about it.. I'm seeing now the term "fuel polishing" is being used to title the system.
The centrifuge is doing something other than getting the mud out and having to keep a case of fuel filters on the shelf.. The fuel is much better overall.
Now I can picture that running the fuel into a pump and then the centrifuge is chewing the fuel by mixing better,, and I feel the rapid expansion going from 80 psi back down to 0 psi 6 or 9 times is part of the clue. I always see about a tea spoon worth of a very thick wax,, inside at clean out time. The only thing I can say it must be the heavier part of the oil that the gas is not cutting that the centrifuge is catching and taking out. The amount varies between batches and the most I have ever seen is shy of a table spoon worth..
Any ideas what this all might be? Sodbust,,
-
Hmmm good stuff here. Can't wait until I pull my Dodge Cummins into the station and see all the eye popping goin on when they watch me pour a gallon of vegatable oil in the tank and top it off with 2 gallons of gas.....lol. They are going to think im friggin nuts.