Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: kd7zrs on February 19, 2007, 03:50:58 AM
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I have a 6/1 indirect injected engine and am considering running straight ethanol (160 to 190 proof). Is this possible and what are the ill effects if any? If it is possible what would need to be done to make it happen? Thanks for the input. Ed
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I thought a 6/1 was a diesel? I have a 10hp Kohler I'll trade you even for your 6/1! My Kohler will love that GASOLINE!
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lister cs engines are very heavy duty and i am thinking it will run rough for close to an hour before you have destroyed it
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I asked serious questions but all I get are stupid comebacks. Some of you people seem to be real good at that. I'll not be posting anymore questions.
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Take a deep breath and relax newbie....
I don't think you will have much luck running a IDI 6/1 on Ethanol. IDI engines are good for burning oils but DI engines are better suited to diesel pilot ignition of gasses and vapours....
You might be out of luck, but you may be able to run a carb and displace as much as 10-20% of your diesel.
Only way to know for sure is try.
Doug
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Hi
Almost every one is advising the addition od a lubricant to regul;ar diesel.
I think that if you add an oil that mixes with the ethanol you would be sucessfull.
In my model airplane engines the fuel uses menthanol and caster oil and other lubricants.
I have experimented with mixing my own fuels. I acidentaly bought some oil ment to be mixed with gasoline. It would not mix with the menthanol!
To sucessfully use ethanol you need an oil that mixes with it and stays mixed. Caster oil may be the only possibility.
You have a lot of experimentation ahead of you.
Good luck.
Sorry about the wiseass remarks some of us have to make. Don't worry about them.
Dennis
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Hi KD
Ethenol at that high of a percentage will cook your diesel eng and probably most gas engines too unless its designed for it. some fuels that are rated at 15/85= 15%ethenol/85%gas or 10/90 or even 40/60,seen that one in southern alberta last summer.wont try it tho it cetane rating is still lower than the 160-180proof of methanal so im pretty sure it will toast a gas engine at 50/50 without some aditives added to it.
Good luck using ethanal
Derek
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I've thought about this post for a while and have a few issues that would have to be overcome. Some of these cause problems when fueling a gasolene engine from alcohol too, so there is a good deal of prior work. Diesel has about 130,000 BTU/gallon and ethanol about half that, so plan on 3 hp unless somehow you can modify the pump and nozzle to deliver twice the fuel per shot. While you are hammering on the pump, figure out a way to lube it so it won't seize from lack of lubrication. Compression ratios around 15:1 can be run if the timing is carefully set and maintained since the alcohol behaves as if it has a very high octane rating, somewhat due to it's cooling due to heat of vaporization. I believe that the engine could be made to run; probably not well or for long though. I think starting may be a problem due to the cooling effect.
If I had ethanol available I would trade it for diesel oil.
Good luck,
George
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Hi
I think from the comments people are making, they are thinking about the ethanol as in how it works in gasoline engines.
In an injected engine the issues will be recalibrating the pump and injecter to move more fuel.
The combination of ethanol and the lube additive will have a higher btu value than straight ethanol alone.
The cetane rating of the fuel is more the issue.
The octane value of ethanol is not an issue altho the timing if the injection event will have to be changed some amount to bring the operation to optimum.
People who run veggie oil have found a timing change helps the engines to run properly.
Good luck
Dennis
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KD7ZRS
I apologize for my poor attempt at humor. All of the folks here have one thing in common, we come here to learn and share information on what has to be the most satisfying example of the DIYer. For some this is just a hobby, for others it is a way of life and for some just being independent from the "Oil Company controlled Utilities". I for one am gaining knowledge for when I retire and go 'Off Grid" in about ten years. I am also like you exploring the alternative fuels that are available. For me it is waste engine oil and vegetable oil. I have mastered all the big megawatt diesels and computer control systems at work and it has taught me that the KISS principle is where I need to be for my own power generation. Once again, sorry for the stupid comment in my first post.
KE7GMS
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Folks
ok,forgive me if i have my facts wrong. it has been 17 yrs since i took any courses in fuel,ethanol,methane fuels.
I was taught that ethanal is a pure alcohol with a higher btu rateing but it is a very DRY fuel that it requires a lube in it for the njector pump and injectors. But even with all the extra additives in it it is still has a high octane rateing,102,104sh???
Was just thinking that i wouldnt want to run that anywhere near a diesel unless cut way down with clean crap oil in it to thin it out.
I may be wrong,wont be the first and wont be the last time,lol.
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Not wanting to seem defensive or augumentive, only clear, let me expand on the post above; I was thinking of some gasolene mechanical injection pumps that were used years ago for fuel injection that had lube sumps so that additives to the fuel weren't needed. I am conserned with the tendency to autoignite of which octane is a measure were cetane is a measure of ignition delay in compression ignition. I beleive that alcohols will have much shorter ignition delays than even the highest cetane number and so used octane in an attempt to say that detonation can tear the hell out of the engine in short order if the timing isn't just right.
A more appropriate solution may be put in a spark plug and move the injection nozzle to the intake manifold and change the timing to inject as the intake valve opens. Add a mag and time it right, and there you would have a heavy duty gas engine with mechanical injection, if that could be ever sorted out so the pump would last.
I'd love to here the results of this though if someone wants to try. I tried gasolene in a diesel once and was disappointed in the results and it took a little doing to undo the trial.
George
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Hi
I believe that knocking might be an issue from the easier ignition. Timing of the injection event will compensate.
Detonation won't occur because the fuel is contained in a spray from the nozzle. It is not a fog of air-fuel in the whole cylinder like a gas engine. Ignition occurs because of the high temperature of the compressed air in the cylinder when the fuel is injected. I think the flame front will be closer to the nozzle than with diesel.
Detonation is what happens when either is sprayed in the intake.
Dennis
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It will definately trash the Injection pump.
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I asked serious questions but all I get are stupid comebacks. Some of you people seem to be real good at that. I'll not be posting anymore questions.
kd,
If you stick around you will learn that there is some commaraderie here as well as cold hard engine facts. This place functions as a social club for many diesel engine enthusiasts who hang out here. Wisecracks and attempts at humor is part of the color that makes this place the special place it is. You are welcomed to stay and free to leave.
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I received pretty much the same greeting when I first posted here and I have to say I was tempted to forget about this website. I was very interested in the engine so I stuck around to gain as much knowledge as I could. There is a clique here and they all know who they are and they tend to oppose much of what outsiders say and bash them. It's tolerated by who ever runs this thing. I would advise if you are seriously interested in the engine, to stick around. If someone wants to show their behavioral ignorance, let them. It's only black words on a white screen. It only carry's as much weight as you let it. You can learn alot here if you wade through all the crap thats being shoveled and flung everywhere. I admit this is probably the worst behaved forum I have come across and having said that I am not leaving because the free knowledge is too valuable.
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i think the newbie asking the questions should go elsewhere if his feelings are so easily hurt.... i was not rude or crude ... i did not call him an idiot or anything of the like... i simply answered his question in an honest manner... in an hour your nice new 6/1 will be in need of serious repair.
if you dont like the answer.. if you feel that is being rude... then call me a jerk and fire up your engine
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i dont think its being rude to tell some one that asked a question the answer. these engines from india are not bad for the $ paid for them, but are not anywhere near the quality of north american gennies but unfortunately n, american gennies are made to scream. driven by manufacturers greed for $$ in parts and the wearing out of engines and excessive use of fuel. thats why most people put up with the low quality if indian products 1) lower Purchase$ 2) simpler designs 3) easier repairs for the most part 4)lower RPM,s 5) less fuel used 6) sounds a heck of a lot better than a screamer 7) and many other different reasons for each and every other person..
Besides,,, where can u have a 3-22 hp engine and not worry about someone running off with your engine during a power failure when your back is turned ;D
Derek
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Well, what do you know. There are some serious thinkers on this forum. After I posted my question the first two answers weren't answers at all. One wanted to trade and the other said my engine would run rough and then self-distruct. He didn't say why. I believe that problems can be overcome and as I gleaned from the other posts the 6/1 can run on ethonal (which is alcohol not gasoline) but the cost is probably prohibitive. I would probably go through many engines and still end up running on diesel. I live in rural Arizona on 40 acres off the grid. We live in a camp trailer and are building a stick built house. We had the concrete work done and I am doing the rest. The garage/wood shop (28x48) is completed and the roof is on the 2200 sq/ft house. I've started on the wiring and the plumbing is next. After 66 years I still believe in doing it yourself. I'm still learning and will continue to read this forum because there are some serious thinkers and problem solvers here. Nuf said.
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Let me be the first to properly welcome you to the forum. Hang in there you'l learn alot. I admire what you are doing. I have often wanted to do the same. I lived in Phoenix for a while and saw how cheap the desert land was away from the valley. I had an inclination to do what you are doing. BUt things changed and I had to move. Good luck with your projects.
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I was just out in Arizona this past weekend, then come from 70F weather back to the east coast to 10f with a 30kt wind. Brrr...
Anyway, I think what you'll find on this forum is a TYPE of person that is into self sufficiency, self reliant, able to fix things themselves or make stuff, and NOT being the sort to rely on others. Those type of folk tend to have opinions and those opinions are held pretty strongly. Stubborn might even be a good word to describe them (us).
I started on this board a while back (back when the membership was 600 or so) and I've learned so much more than I've put into the discussions.
The folk here are from all walks of life (some very interesting walks I should add) and all can draw on experience.
I wouldn't look too much into what you're thinking as people being rude rather than people wanting to know more about what you're doing before rendering an opinion.
I say welcome to the group, stick around, pull up a chair, you'll never leave!
Robert
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He shoulda got here 'fore Guy left!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;DUH OH,Dail runnin for cover
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I wonder what Guy is up to these days, wonder if the milk float SOM is powering itself around the neighborhood yet.
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Well, what do you know. There are some serious thinkers on this forum. After I posted my question the first two answers weren't answers at all. One wanted to trade and the other said my engine would run rough and then self-distruct. He didn't say why. I believe that problems can be overcome and as I gleaned from the other posts the 6/1 can run on ethonal (which is alcohol not gasoline) but the cost is probably prohibitive. I would probably go through many engines and still end up running on diesel. I live in rural Arizona on 40 acres off the grid. We live in a camp trailer and are building a stick built house. We had the concrete work done and I am doing the rest. The garage/wood shop (28x48) is completed and the roof is on the 2200 sq/ft house. I've started on the wiring and the plumbing is next. After 66 years I still believe in doing it yourself. I'm still learning and will continue to read this forum because there are some serious thinkers and problem solvers here. Nuf said.
kd,
You sound like the kind of DIYer who will like it here. Welcome! I am curious, what does one apparently isolated like you do to get an internet connection?
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My 2 cents. I have also considered doing something similar with methane. Essentially you would have a heavy ruggedly built engine that you would convert to a carbureted, spark ignition engine. You could take advantage of the long term durability and high compression of the listeroid, just switch from compression ignition to spark ignition. A DI head would be better than an IDI head. Just substitute a spark plug for the injector and a timed ignition source for the IP. Connect the governor linkage to the carb throttle. With a carb the problems of no lube for an IP go away. Also could use the IP cam to activate a trigger for the ignition, just need to provide some way to adjust timing.
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Hi
My comments have been along the lines of keeping the lister type engine as an injected diesel.
For the price of an injecter and pump ( fairly cheap) you could do the experiment.
Ethanol should mix with used veggie oil fine. By diluting the veg oil you should have less injection problems. The guys burning straight veggie oil have to heat their injecter lines to sucessfully run this stuff.
I would start with a 50-50m mix of alchol and veggie oil. Filter it all well and run the engine.
As in earlier posts run the engine hard and hot.
I think this is a worthy experiment. Do it.
Dennis
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My own curiosity makes me question the value of ethanol in a diesel, and though I know little of it, I believe it would have much more octane value than centane. Less centane value would not be an efficient move to diesel operation., notwithstanding the lack of lubricity for the pump.
Am I somewhat correct in this thought, or further out in left field than usual? ;D
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I dunno, I find I run best on scotch and save the petroleum products for my toys....
DOug
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Just mix 25% ethanol with vegie oil and add a little lye. drain off the glop that settles to the bottom and your good to go. ;)
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i personally see absolutely no reason that alcohol could not be used in one of these engines in a dual fuel mode
the octane rating of alcohol is sufficiently high that it will not preignite or detonate, however
i would not suggest injecting it through the diesel injector, i would keep that as the pilot fuel source
if you either carburated the alcohol in or setup another injector to admit it into the intake stream it will not destroy the engine.
the power density of a typical listeroid is so low, and the combustion temps are also relatively low, coupled with alcohols ability to refrigerate
i cannot see how you will burn a piston using it.
a loss of power is likely however because the alcohol will displace oxygen in the intake charge, and also the btu content of alcohol is about 1/2 that
of diesel fuel.. so some loss of power will result.
on the up side you should have a very clean burning engine without the need to decarbon i would think.
i would suspect you could replace as much as 75% of the diesel injected and still have an engine that runs reliably, albeit at a lower power level.
some timing changes might be in order to optimize the power, only some testing would show how much change results in how much power is gained.
might not be worth the effort to alter timing, i don't know.
if you admit a gaseous fuel into the intake the engine will try to increase rpm, at which point the govenor will decrease the amount of diesel injected up to
a point at which the engine will not run smoothly
how you regulate the alcohol injection will determine the complexity of the design, changing loads will also increase the complexity of the design.
btw,, welcome aboard.. and ...
you are responsible for your own bandaids, gloves and cutman :)
sometimes the dialog gets pretty pointed, and we just like brothers in a family, can mix up a fight with the best of them.
thats part of the fun, and even in a fight we all learn a bit, between the rounds.
bob g
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Ditto! Welcome aboard Ed!
He wrote: "I have a 6/1 indirect injected engine and am considering running straight ethanol (160 to 190 proof). Is this possible and what are the ill effects if any? If it is possible what would need to be done to make it happen? Thanks for the input. Ed"
Ethanol is highly hydroscopic and it's reasonable that the less than pure nature as defined by the proofs Ed gives is due to water contamination. What Ed proposes is to run on a solution of ethanol and water. Alcohols in general, and ethanol in particular, especially in combination with atmospheric oxygen and water, are corrosive to metals, and also tend to promote electrolytic corrosion. While it is, no doubt, possible to engineer away from problems associated with these qualities, it's a tough road to take and quite likely not a "best path".
In combustion the alcohol-water solution would, I think, exhibit knock due to the rapid expansion. Yes, diesels can and do knock. Much effort in design goes into minimizing this tendency.
So, Ed, it looks to me like an undesirable path to explore.
A solution of ethanol and water will not dissolve in diesel oil - so mixing your alcohol with fuel oil is not realistic. If you had pure ethanol it would mix, but even a small amount of water would cause the alcohol to come out of solution, even after the fact. Water's ubiquitous, eg not a good idea.
But let's go further. What about estrification, which is obliquely referred to above? You'd need oil for this. The alcohol you've defined, assuming that the low proofs are due to water, cannot be estrified. If it were methanol, maybe, but ethanol has to be very dry for esterfication into so-called bio-diesel. It is possible to dry alcohols, in particular one can dry ethanol, but you're going to have to learn a bit of chemistry - and it's costly in terms of time and money. You could, with considerable effort and oil, make your ethanol into bio-diesel, and that would work.
And even further, evaporating your ethanol-water solution into the intake air of your 6-1 (running on diesel oil) ought to, if you limit the "fumigation" to a natural evaporative rate, give you some efficiency increase and realize the latent energy of the alcohol fraction without damage to the engine. That would work. And, if I had drums of watery ethanol, that's what I'd do with it. Some people might just drink it though, depends... Anyway "fumigation is simple, cheap, and gets watts out of the alcohol.
Carburetting the alcohol, eg adding it to the intake air as a vapor in proportion to air volume, as is done in a gasoline engine, would be hard to govern - you wouldn't want to throttle the diesel intake. But "carburetting" in proportion to the rack-position might well work. Diesels, even at full power, seldom burn even half the oxygen available. My guess is that you could go to 10% alcohol in terms of the BTU of the two fuels. While experience might let you get near the 75% level Bob posits, I would be surprized at that. Of course, you'd still have the corrosive problems associated with alcohols and water...
Best of luck, Ed, let us all know how this turns out, keep us posted.
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some info on dual fuel operation on ethanol
http://www.saeindia.org/saeconference/ethanolreview.htm
bob g