Lister Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wrightkiller on January 09, 2007, 07:35:28 PM

Title: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: wrightkiller on January 09, 2007, 07:35:28 PM
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_04/40cfr1039_04.html
Title: National Hot Rod Listeroid Association is the answer
Post by: mjn on January 09, 2007, 11:12:48 PM
Very Interesting...
Based on reading title 40 chapter 1, section 1039.5, the following types of CI engines may be excluded from part 1039.

Obviously listeroids do not fall in any of these categories.

Section 1068 has provisions for the following exemptions:

All of these excemptions require you to apply to the EPA for excemption except for part 235:
Quote
Section 1068.235(b) If you modify an engine after it has been placed into service in
the United States so it will be used solely for competition, it is
exempt without request. This exemption applies only to the prohibition
in Sec. 1068.101(b)(1) and is valid only as long as the engine is used
solely for competition.


So if we want our engines to be excempt from EPA regulations, we need to start the "National Hot Rod Listeroid Association" (NHRLA).   We could conduct time trials to see which competitor could get his listeroid to go from 0 to 60 hertz in the fastest time.  Also, we could have the overall efficiency competition, or Hotater could be leading the field in the "endurance" class.

I am looking forward to the day when the NHRLA can stand alongside the "Church of Lister" and the "Listeroid Institute of Technology".

Seriously, Sec 1068.101(b)(1) noted above only applies to removal of exhaust or emissions devices, so I don't think the NHRLA will stand much of a chance against a sustained attack by the EPA.

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 09, 2007, 11:39:28 PM
What defines a mining engine as different from an off road engine.
What are the rules governing the sales, and regulation of engines for us in non gassy mines in the USA

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Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mjn on January 10, 2007, 01:09:37 AM
What defines a mining engine as different from an off road engine.
What are the rules governing the sales, and regulation of engines for us in non gassy mines in the USA

To quote the entire text of the regulation:
Quote
2004 CFR title 40 Sec. 1039.5
This part does not apply to the following nonroad engines:
...
(c) Mining engines. Engines used in underground mining or in underground mining equipment and regulated by the Mining Safety and Health Administration in 30 CFR parts 7, 31, 32, 36, 56, 57, 70, and 75

I'm assuming that the Mining Safety and Health Administration has far more stringent regulations on their engines which is why the EPA is giving them a pass.

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 10, 2007, 01:43:50 AM
Getting warmer....

But how are the rules enforced?
What makes a standard engine suitable for mining?
What is considered suitable testing to verify that an engine meets the requirements?

Doug

I can buy a scoop tram if I want.
I can remanufacture it if used and resell it if I want.

I can plow my drive way with it ( not an easy thing to do I admit )
Or I can plant flowers in the bucket and rev the engine untill the people call the cops, but its my scoop tram.....


Let me spin this:

If you buy one of those Kawasiky Mules and order an engine from me in Canada say a Yanmar diesel clone that I sell as a mining modified engine are you braking any laws by sticking it in a buggy and never going down a ramp in mine with it.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: binnie on January 10, 2007, 03:50:09 AM
And if we remove that sign that reads "Engine Room" from the shed door that houses the Lister & replace it with "Mine Shaft #1" and dig a pit in the back yard a little larger than the one the dog lies in, and get out the hard-hat, does that make us all miners?
Someone on this forum labled his genshed with a civic number to meet compliance with municiple ordanence! Binnie (fun food for thought)....
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 10, 2007, 07:29:05 PM
I'm drawing you a bloody picture, think outside the box.

I work in the mining buisness and know the rules governing M424.1

Do you think this is a big market?

Its not, machinery has to be custom built and the rules take this into consideration.

The rules are designed and intended to make it easy to build and market customs machines.

However if you want to follow the EPA or CEAP act go for it.

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Guy_Incognito on January 11, 2007, 02:14:56 AM
*shrugs*

A small catalytic exhaust purifier, positioned directly at the exhaust outlet and well insulated, would likely clean up the exhaust enough to pass emissions. Can anyone point me to the proper specs? I've an exhaust gas analyser at work and a few small diesel engines with and without purifiers there.

Something like (random google search) this page here:

http://www.dcl-inc.com/dieselparticulatefilter.cfm?lg=EN

or these:

http://www.dcl-inc.com/apppg.cfm?pg=mutileng&lg=EN

How much you're willing to spend on the unlikely chance of an EPA visit is up to you.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: wrightkiller on January 11, 2007, 03:01:27 AM
Guy Incognito:



How much you're willing to spend on your own health is up to you.    EPA or no EPA it's a very good idea..good find..
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 11, 2007, 03:13:41 AM
Now its my turn to shrugg....

These catalysts are already in service and out there on thousands of small engines around the world in mines...

Guy Incognito, whats the Auzy limmits for emissions on diesel in the mines ( hard rock ).

Doug
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 11, 2007, 03:16:03 AM
in the unlikely event!!  (i am not pickin on you GI)

this seems to be the common feeling at this point in time,,, i would agree that today there is not much of a chance that the epa is going to knock on my door.

but,,, next year?  maybe not, but chances are maybe .1%

five years?  maybe a bit more lets say 1%

10 years?  who knows, but with the pace of the liberal way of thinking  it is likely to be closer to 10% chance, depending on where you live i suppose

15 years? i ain't gonna bet my lunch money on it, my bet is 100bucks right now we all will be under scrutiny, and will be called on to succumb to testing.

now for folks that are just in this as a passing hobby, or for backup emergency use, you probably don't have a care in the world, your chances of winning the
lottery are probably higher.

for those with long range plans, or are planning to build a house out in the sticks and presumably live there for over 10 years, then i think the concern over epa
compliance is damn sure a factor in any decision to go offgrid, most especially if you are miles from the nearest power line.

if i may ,,, i would suggest anyone contemplating a long life, a significant investment in a primary residence, way off grid, you might think long and hard where this epa
thing is likely to go

it is going to get really ugly between 2010 and 2015, and anyone that thinks otherwise is just refusing to see what direction things are going and how fast things are moving.

all it would take is a major economic upset in our country to see the whole "grapes of wrath" thing play out again (history repeats itself), and more folks are going
to get envolved in the offgrid movement, more folks means more demand, more demand means more suppliers, more press, more attention of lawmakers and regulators
and yes the epa!

recently there was the post re listergirl,, we all thought she was cute, had a good idea, and perhaps she will get a show. i hope not!
nothing against her, but that is just what we do not need, that being a national program with a cute girl showing the world the listeroid, how long do you
think it would take for some starving atty to launch an investigation, stir up the epa and bam,,, then there will be additional funding to regulate these engines, and
enforce the epa laws....

you don't want to believe this?
fine.. sit back and watch,, just don't come crying to me when after you have your head pulled out of the sand by the knock on the door.

there is a critical balance to everything, tip the balance and the slippery slope gets really slick.
how big of an offgrid movement will it take for lawmakers that love taxes, begin to see the loss of revenue and start to confine the movement.
we already know the utility companies don't care for home power, it cuts into their monopoly.
a few is a minor irritation for them, a few more is an itchy rash, a few more is a oozing sore, a few more than that and they go to congress to lobby against
the problem.

the government wants the populace fat, lazy, and ignorant. we are easy to control that way.

why do you think that Thoreau's "walden" and its companion book "civil disobedience" is not taught in school?

why do you think that when the federal government took over education in this country they wanted schools to quit teaching about finance, interest rates etc.?

they can control, tax and keep corporate lobby guys really happy, if they keep us connected to the grid, in debt, and ignorant.

offgrid by its very nature does not fit this "model",, a few is not much more than a novelty, but when it gets to even 1% of the populace, they will use everything in their collective power to quell the flow.

think i am wrong, read your history, it has been this way since the stone age

thoughts?

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Guy_Incognito on January 11, 2007, 04:16:12 AM
Quote
thoughts?

Buy your engine with cash and pick it up yourself.
If anyone asks when you first install it, say that you've had it in storage at a friends place for many years and have only just gotten around to picking it up and putting it in.
If anyone asks a few years down the track, say that you can't recall who you got it from, and it was bought a while ago - you can't quite recall - but it was definitely sometime around 2001.

Doug : I'm not at work at the moment, but it's a reasonably low level for CO and particulates - engine tests before and after the catalyst normally give about a 10:1 reduction for those two. I'm not sure about SO2 - it has a pretty low level these days due to ULSD here - but the NOx emissions are pretty much unchanged. I'm not back until Sunday - I'll check for certain then. And I'm still waiting for the "Official" write-up from the mines dept for that hydraulic incident the other week.... the wheels of government turn sloooowly.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 11, 2007, 04:23:55 AM
Bob you have a very American of looking at the world one where the goverment is not your friend and sometimes the bad guy and wants to take something from you, invade your privacy ect ect...

Maybe that true to some degree, but I can't see how 1% of the population saying screw it and moving to country and living off the grid can realy be seen as threat to the Amercian Establishment.

Stop paying your taxes and ya people will get pissed at you....

I grew up in the social responsibility era here ( I'm atracted to stores with the word Co-op in them lol ). A time when goverment was suposed to be involved in everything from health care to mega building projects for the greater good of all Canadians. I don't fear goverment I just think their a bunch of weasels that try and feed you tripe all the time and hide behind smoke screans rather than getting on with whats important and often unpopular in the nations buisness.

The whole grapes of rath thing bother me sometimes when I think about the future. But people got by then and I'm sure people will get by in the future even if the ecconomy goes to hell. We can grow way more food than we can eat, there's more trees than we can ever cut and burn, threre's coal and oil enough to last centuries even if its expensive. The doctors and trades people and engineers will still be here and scratching heads about how to keep the roofs from leaking, bellies full and health concerns at bay. Politicians will still be here although its debatable how much hot air we will need.

Systems, social order, class, infrastructure will be stressed and probably broken and people will pick up the pieces and move on.

I wouldn't suprised if we saw small factories rise form the ashes and people building GM90s and simple alternators running on waste oil and producer gas...

I bet REAL unmodifed perverted food will make a come back.

I amagine people in the new world of tommorow will worked harder, and apreciate wha they have more. And I bet they will know the neighbors.

The Mega cities may become ghost towns, big deal.

War, Fammin, desease and mass migration wil be the new reality for many living in the wrong places

Scotch the realy good kind will become scarce, Weed the realy good smoking kind will become common.

I'm not going to worry about any more, just prepare a game plan and who knows maybe I will be the guy who does the QC at the little Petteroid/GM90/pump/electric works ( doing the alternator bit I guess )

Doug
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 11, 2007, 05:05:49 AM
Doug:

please don't misunderstand me, the world as we know it is not going to come to an end, but

a correction is long overdue :)

and yes as an american i by nature am a bit on the independant side.

and no i don't like or trust government.
their function is to provide for national defense and perhaps a handful of other functions

the problem as i see it is congress and all the lobby guys, all trying to make a name for themselves, and legislating all sorts of stuff that
infringe on ones freedom in one way or another.

but i digress :)

you also must consider the lawyers in this country, there are simply too damn many of them and they are hungry for not only money
but power, press and position.

pick a hundred of them, an i will bet another c note that 5 of them actively look for stuff like these listeroids to make hay about.

add to that the whole tree hugger, politically correct, ultra liberal group, that would have us belief a child=bug, both having equal right to clean air.

heaven help us all if one of the latter come upon a dead sparrow outside a listeroid shack. 

perhaps canada is different in many regards, but i used to know my country, and it is rapidly becoming something i don't recognize.

no the world is not coming to an end, just going to be different, at least my world is going to be different.

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Geno on January 11, 2007, 01:46:29 PM
I’d have to say I fall somewhere in between Bob and Doug. I believe the future will shape what governments and other entities will do. Under the right circumstances the govt. can and will come down hard on miniscule environmental “concerns” I live in the Adirondack Park, 6 million acres of public and private land.

Few people want this place to turn into a huge, uncontrolled, development. I don’t. Few people want to see large, private tracts of land clear cut for short term profits. I don’t.
The laws concerning what can and cannot be done on private land are numerous and can be so restrictive they become cost prohibitive for the average person.
For the most part these laws are pushed through by people who live downstate, in the city or they have enough $ to pay. These people often couldn’t care less if the little guy who actually lives here can make it or not. The APA “Adirondack Park Agency” has the enforcement on the ground right now doing some of the things Bob’s talking about. I have some friends in the Forest Service. They know what it takes to protect these tracts of land and for the most part have a very jaded view of the APA and the LOUD, rich, environmental organizations.

What do average, locals do? They fly under the radar, put up gates, posted signs, play ignorant, and try to keep a low profile.

Some of the things Bob’s talking about are already here, to an extent, in some places.

Thanks, Geno
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 11, 2007, 02:01:07 PM
I try to be middle of the road but stuff that the government has been doing lately has gotten me a lot more skeptical lately.

The basic idea behind the EPA is sound - protect the environment because that's where we live - where I have issues with it is they *choose* to go after the piddly stuff that doesn't amount to much and blatantly ignore the major polluters who refuse to clean up their act because any emissions control on their fly ash, or soot, or what have you cuts into their profits.

The whole idea behind trading pollution credits?  what the hell!  There shouldn't be a market in being allowed to pollute more if you buy credits from some company that pollutes less.  Where's the incentive to clean up.

The FDA - good idea in theory - keep harmful drugs/devices out of the hands of consumers - till the pharmaceutical lobbies throw money to get their way and lawsuits when they don't.  You wind up with poorly tested drugs coming to market and people dying of heart attacks because they have arthritis.

Homeland security?  biggest boondoggle in history.  I don't think we are any safer now than we were pre 9/11.  The only difference nowadays is that passengers in planes have a different mind-set.  In the olden days if a plane got hijacked the common theme would be "ok, everyone take it easy, we will land somewhere, negotiate, eventually we get out alive"  after 9/11 people *know* the hijacking is not the end result the lawn-dart of the plane into a building is.  If you're gonna die in the plane you might as well do it trying to regain control if it even gets that far.

The major problem with these agencies is that the heads of them are political appointees rather than subject matter experts and depending on who is in the whitehouse decides who runs the agencies.  If a tree-hugger is in the house then every puff of smoke is a violation, if an oil man is in the house then the more smoke the better.  It's just not a good way to keep a consistent even tack.

ok where was I?  oh yeah.. EPA.  I'm thinking if I maintain a grid connection (which I fully expect to do) then that means my future diesel generator is "emergency use" and that's an exemption.  I have to test it to ensure it will work when called upon, I could test it every couple of days for my peace of mind.  If it's not making loads of noise and smoke who is going to be any the wiser.

In the event of an extended power failure when I have lights and my neighbors don't - am I going to be laughing and basking in the warmth and light I have provided myself?  no, I'd invite them over or in the case of my closest neighbors might run them an extension cord to at least keep their fridge going.  I have neighbors close by, I like them all and we all get along well.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 11, 2007, 04:59:18 PM
i finished posting here last night, went to bed and checked nw news for the weather report

we were getting hit again with snow, and freezing temps, (i know nothing new to most of you)
traffic stalled all over the area, people flewing their cars on foot
and at the bottom of the screen

Global warming has already altered our climate in the northwest!....... blah blah blah

maybe it has, maybe it hasn't ,,, but those in control say it has.... and they make the friggin rules, and enforce the law.

we heard it with katrina,, i am sure the midwest is talking about it with the blizzards...

got to thinking last night about the old saying

if at 20 you arent a liberal democrat ,,, you have not heart
if at 30 you arent a conservative republican ,, you have no brain

i would add the following
at 40 , you are too busy working to pay taxes and raise kids to much care
at 50, the kids are leaving and you become distrustful of goverment
at 60 plus,  you become an anarchist , (right jack?)

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 13, 2007, 04:15:35 PM
Well Bob:

If this wiered weathger is global warming.....

And I only had enough snow to cover the dog poop for photos before it melted
I just checked my gas bil :) burn more coal

if at 20 you arent a liberal democrat ,,, you have not heart
if at 30 you arent a conservative republican ,, you have no brain

i would add the following
at 40 , you are too busy working to pay taxes and raise kids to much care
at 50, the kids are leaving and you become distrustful of goverment
at 60 plus,  you become an anarchist , (right jack?)

In the 80s I waffled between a red Tory and and a pro buisness liberal.

Then the 90s took everything from me.

When your bellies empty and can't find a place to live you get real angery. Had I found an angery mob of socialists to join I would have started tearing bricks out of Queens park and throwing them at cops.
Now I've moderated considerably, but I still blame free trade, goverment and big buisness for making me defacto homeless in a country with every resource we need and no reason import anything we could make ourselves.

Doug


EPA boo blah blah.
CEPA stinks

Scotch is too expensive......

If the bottom falls out ( And I assume it will ), I won't be hungery or homeless I have a plan.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Rod on January 13, 2007, 07:28:52 PM
Doug:

please don't misunderstand me, the world as we know it is not going to come to an end, but

a correction is long overdue :)

and yes as an american i by nature am a bit on the independant side.

and no i don't like or trust government.
their function is to provide for national defense and perhaps a handful of other functions

the problem as i see it is congress and all the lobby guys, all trying to make a name for themselves, and legislating all sorts of stuff that
infringe on ones freedom in one way or another.

but i digress :)

you also must consider the lawyers in this country, there are simply too damn many of them and they are hungry for not only money
but power, press and position.

pick a hundred of them, an i will bet another c note that 5 of them actively look for stuff like these listeroids to make hay about.

add to that the whole tree hugger, politically correct, ultra liberal group, that would have us belief a child=bug, both having equal right to clean air.

heaven help us all if one of the latter come upon a dead sparrow outside a listeroid shack. 

perhaps canada is different in many regards, but i used to know my country, and it is rapidly becoming something i don't recognize.

no the world is not coming to an end, just going to be different, at least my world is going to be different.

bob g

Bob;  I think you're looking more in the right direction than the others who commented, but I would go futher. If those in charge get what they want, none of us will recognize the world, much less our own country. They have already totally trashed the Bill of Rights, yet no one in congerss spoke up, and to trash it was treason - think about it.   Rod
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on January 22, 2007, 01:21:36 AM
I've got a shotgun and a rifle and a 4 wheel drive, and a country boy can survive.

I live in surburbia now(but not for much longer).  I keep 3 months food and necessities in a closet.   I buy ammunition in 1000 round lots.  Am I a paranoid survivalist?  Mabe, but if the big push comes I can keep my head down, defend myself if needed, and survive long enough for things to level out.  I really hope all this doomsday stuff never happens.  But the world is really getting to be a crazy place.  I'm going to hide out on my mountaintop and try to be invisible.

 ps.  pretty good scotch can be made in the barn.  If you cant get peat, use corncobs.
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 24, 2007, 11:49:49 PM
One only needs to remember the real hardships people suffered in the 1930's depression era or those in Nazi occupied Eroupe. Even under rotten condiotions like that people went on ahead with life. They didn't run and hide in the hills ( most any way ) they stayed put in communities and made the best of things

Like will go on after peak oil and the EPA ( Actauly I think one will cover the other ). Govenernts change citties change, people change, change eventualy gets changed ( but I did find a 1939 penny in my coffee change this morning ).
Change is generaly good, but they said the same things about a lot of things. Only time will tell if the big changes coming are for the best.....

Doug
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Technonut on January 25, 2007, 01:48:09 AM
I've got a shotgun and a rifle and a 4 wheel drive, and a country boy can survive.

I live in surburbia now(but not for much longer).  I keep 3 months food and necessities in a closet.   I buy ammunition in 1000 round lots.  Am I a paranoid survivalist?  Mabe, but if the big push comes I can keep my head down, defend myself if needed, and survive long enough for things to level out.  I really hope all this doomsday stuff never happens.  But the world is really getting to be a crazy place.  I'm going to hide out on my mountaintop and try to be invisible.

 ps.  pretty good scotch can be made in the barn.  If you cant get peat, use corncobs.
Zeke

I don't know if you have read this, but you may find it interesting.... ;) Check it out:  http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: hotater on January 25, 2007, 03:48:29 AM
I figured out the sky wasn't falling a LONG time ago.

  And I believe it's about time for the climate to change.  Hurry up warmer climate.  That means the jackpine 'deserts' of N. Canada can supply weat and the N. Ogalla Aquifer can be tapped for soybeans and corn.  Life will be good, pork will be cheap, and the coastal marshes will be flushing the industrial goo out to sea....eddying around skyscrapers...

......and these SAME idiots, making millions off media hysteria, can't forecast the weather for next week-end!!   Gimme a break!

What we SEE is WEATHER.   What rocks RECORD is climate.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 25, 2007, 02:44:27 PM
in ancient times when mother nature did stuff man could not understand he blamed himself, and sactrificed either another man or animal
or did some other crazy thing

skip forward to present

mother nature does stuff that man still does not understand, and just like his ancient ancestors, he blames himself and starts to sacrifice and do
some other crazy things

skip forward another few thousand years, man will look back on the two former groups and wonder why we didn't die, being how we were obviously too
stupid to breathe.

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 25, 2007, 02:51:17 PM
add to that the follow the money thing

ancient man had shaman's, medicine men, and elders who were all to ready to show the tribesman the err of their ways when mother nature did
bad stuff, of course for position, power and of course monetary gain.

today we have politicians, scientists, schools of higher learning, who coincidently happen to also be all to quick to show the unwashed masses their
responcibilty for what mother nature decides to do., of course for position, power, and monetary gain as well.

in another 3 thousand years, the earth will still be doing weird stuff, and there will be some group that will either be shaman or politician, medicine man or scientlst, or
elder or educator who will be ready willng and able to step up and part a fool with his money, gain power, or position.

funny how things like history continue to repeat itself

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: hotater on January 25, 2007, 02:54:20 PM
Bob--

EXACTLY RIGHT!!

Back to my analogy:   Six billion people are just as consequential to earth as six thousand ants on a cruise ship....and have the same control over the thermostat as they do the steering.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on January 25, 2007, 05:24:32 PM
Well, if the planet is the warmest its been in the last 5000 years.  What caused it 5000 years ago??
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Joe on January 25, 2007, 10:54:58 PM
Well, if the planet is the warmest its been in the last 5000 years. What caused it 5000 years ago??

5000 years ago?  That's easy...it's George Bush's fault... ::)

Joe
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Stan on January 26, 2007, 12:35:52 AM
Bob, we're not as far removed from "ancient man" as you think.  Last October when we were in Selcuk, Turkey, the brother of the guy we were staying with came to visit from Australia.  He has made lots of money there and as a present gave his brother a brand new 9 passenger Mercedes Van with ALL the bells and whistles.  This is one luxurious machine in any man's book.  Anyway, we were invited to the celebration.  I happened to notice a lamb tied up in the front yard.  When I asked what it was I was told it was the sacrifice to the luck of the new car!  They were dead serious, whenever someone buys a new car they invite the neighbors around and have a party, sacrificing a lamb which is then barbacued for the party.

Stan
btw, they have lots of Listers in Turkey. (just keeping on topic ;D )
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 26, 2007, 12:54:14 AM
my point was not that we are far removed from ancient man, but rather no different than he.

it has been widely reported by the genetic's group that man is no different today than he was 10,000 years ago, genetically.

my point is
the average man today is just as susseptiple(sp, did i murder that word or what?)  to what he is being told by so called experts as he was 10,000 years ago, what the expert is called is the only thing that has changed.
The mechanic's of deception never change.

and my bet is in another 5 thousand years if man is still alive, he will be duped by those he has put on a pedestal, same as yesterday and today.

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 26, 2007, 05:01:57 AM


I don't know if you have read this, but you may find it interesting.... ;) Check it out:  http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf

Thanks a LOT!!!!  I'm up to page 119 now, like I needed something else to occupy my time!!  :o

Seriously though, it's not a bad read, reminds me a bit of a book I read in High School called Alas Babylon.. similar premise but they lived in Florida.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 26, 2007, 11:20:40 PM
I managed seven pages....

Maybe its the third beer and the fact I'm tired dealing with the twits from work, but I wana buy a Soviet vintage nuclear weapon and hire a Chinese scientist and threaton the next guy that runs over something elelctrical.....

Doug
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 28, 2007, 04:43:26 PM
I finished it, it makes for an entertaining read.  It gets a bit funky at the end, introduction of several new characters so keeping the people straight in your head makes it tough.

My guess is that it's written to sort of wake people up to such things as reliance on technology, the over extension of government powers, gun control, learning useful skills, etc.

It goes into some details regarding why things broke, how to get around stuff that broke, and basically how to manage and protect yourself - protection is the key element in the story.

when you have a free day you can read some more, I don't think it's a waste of your time as I found it pretty exciting and entertaining.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Rod on January 28, 2007, 05:34:56 PM
     In my opinion the people are manipulated to keep them very materialistic and stupid. This was they work hard to buy everything they don't need. As long as they work & buy they pay lots of tax & the ruling elite get richer & the people never learn about what it says on that old Greek tempel "Know Thyself" For a very revealing read Google an interview of Normen Dodd by G. Edward Griffen I have it on video tape about 45 min. It starts with a little background of Dodd so that you can see it's fact & not opinion.  Sorry about the spelling~  Rod
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Technonut on January 28, 2007, 09:30:13 PM
I finished it, it makes for an entertaining read.  It gets a bit funky at the end, introduction of several new characters so keeping the people straight in your head makes it tough.

My guess is that it's written to sort of wake people up to such things as reliance on technology, the over extension of government powers, gun control, learning useful skills, etc.

It goes into some details regarding why things broke, how to get around stuff that broke, and basically how to manage and protect yourself - protection is the key element in the story.

when you have a free day you can read some more, I don't think it's a waste of your time as I found it pretty exciting and entertaining.

Robert

Good summary.... I am glad to have shared the link to the story..  :) I liked it myself. It gets one thinking, which can be a good thing... ;)
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 29, 2007, 12:45:40 AM
It did get me thinking...  Get my concealed weapons permit, stock pile food, generator, more batteries - I say that tongue in cheek but there's pro's to them all.  It doesn't take losing power for very long to get people upset.  August 14th 2003 saw most of the East Coast in the dark.  Had that gone on for a month I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was some real nastiness that went on.

My neighborhood is reachable via 2 roads, I guess we could always block them up and keep the riff raff out.  Mind you the other 3 sides is water so we'd need to watch out for a nautical invasion too.  Then there's the airport.. so many things to do so little time.  you get the idea.

Folks like Bill, Hotater, and Zeke who are living out in the country already have to depend on themselves so having an incident like the story happen to them, they'd already be ahead of the game. (and more of you I'm sure, but these 3 spring to mind).
I live in a small neighborhood, not enough land to grow enough food on so in the event of an EMP that wiped out everything technological I'm up the proverbial creek.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 29, 2007, 01:03:12 AM
well i guess i gotta dig a double ring moat, import some alligators for the inner moat, use the outer for the septic system..
gun towers,, i guess i could claim they are deer stands :)

in the last two windstorms here in tacoma, we lost power for 18 hrs the last and about 30 hrs the time before, things get really stupid amazingly fast.
you can't buy gas the pumps don't work, you can't use the atm no power, you can't buy groceries no power/no puters at the checkout.
no street lights,  and then folks get stupid, driving on sidewalks and cutting each other off.

i know i do not want to be living in a city should things flip for more than a day or two, maybe a week tops
a month or longer,,, no way.... i want out.

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Technonut on January 29, 2007, 02:26:10 AM
The hell of it is, an EMP event is not far-fetched or "tin-foil hat" stuff. I read a recent book, War Footing... 10 Steps America Must Take To Prevail In The War For The Free World http://www.warfooting.com/ that has a chapter about a possible EMP attack.

Quote
This is not speculation. It is the conclusion of a report issued in 2004 by a blue-ribbon commission created by Congress. The commission found that a single nuclear weapon, delivered by a ballistic missile to an altitude of a few hundred miles over the United States, would be "capable of causing catastrophe for the nation." How is that possible? By precipitating a lethal electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attack.

Quote
This sounds unbelievable. But a blue-ribbon commission created by Congress confirmed this danger in a report submitted in August 2004. Thanks to the almost unimaginable power of an EMP wave unleashed by a properly configured nuclear weapon - approximately a million times as strong as the most powerful radio signals on earth - the devastation caused could make the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina look modest by comparison.

EDIT: Added quote....
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on January 29, 2007, 02:27:29 AM
When TSHTF, if you are stuck living in a big city, you are toast.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 29, 2007, 02:48:31 AM
On the up side your realy in for some good buisness if your a candle stick maker....
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 29, 2007, 04:03:40 AM
yes and that pulse will take the grid down for upwards of two years, because of the lead time to build and place the supertransformers that transport the
power over the grid. these transformers take two years to build, and will go to the highest bidder, 2nd highest will get his next and will take another 2 years! and so on.

these super transformers are not emp protected

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050309-electric-wmd.htm

http://cryptome.org/bartlett-060905.txt

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43956

somehow i am likeing the st head more and more :)

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 29, 2007, 04:09:29 AM
When TSHTF, if you are stuck living in a big city, you are toast.

True enough, hopefully the mags in the plane still work, I'm 1/2 mile away from the airport.. I can load the family up and fly up to Glens Falls and go hang out with BioBill  ;D
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on January 29, 2007, 05:48:33 AM
On the up side your realy in for some good buisness if your a candle stick maker....

A mob isn`t going to pay you for candles when they can turn your house into one big un for free.  Visions of Cheech and Chong `table candles` (Hey man, ya just pour some wax on the table man, and light it!) but on a much larger scale.  It won`t be pretty.  It will be pretty insane.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: wiebe on January 29, 2007, 09:36:32 AM
when shtf.
and my generator is putting out elektricety ,wat can i use in the house after a emp.
ore thus the emp not hitting us.
and are retifier briges not [diode,s] not haremd by it????
most of our things at home have some sort of elektronics in it, the frige whasing maschine ed .
even our tools have elektronic rpm things in it
so should we stok old eqiupmunt now with no eletronics in it
sorrie for the spelling
wiebe.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Joe on January 29, 2007, 01:46:18 PM
wiebe,
Most people go through life spelling words only one way...it is up to us with creative minds to offer alternatives...if they don't see the genius in that, there is little else we can do for them....  :)

Joe
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on January 29, 2007, 04:31:53 PM
when shtf.
and my generator is putting out elektricety ,wat can i use in the house after a emp.
ore thus the emp not hitting us.
and are retifier briges not [diode,s] not haremd by it????
most of our things at home have some sort of elektronics in it, the frige whasing maschine ed .
even our tools have elektronic rpm things in it
so should we stok old eqiupmunt now with no eletronics in it
sorrie for the spelling
wiebe.

My vacuum tube stereo gear will still work!  ;D   My VW Jetta diesel will still work!  ;D 

As far as a nuclear EMP is concerned I suspect those far from ground zero will have appliances that were not plugged in in better chances of still operating if they have a working genset. It will depend on factors like internal shielding, how the power cord was wrapped in storage, how much silicon is inside and the type of silicon.

I am more worried about a solar storm causing the grid to become badly damaged because of the reluctance of utility station managers to shut things down and isolate their systems despite foreknowledge of the event because of legitimate fears of being sued  by large corporations that could lose profits if the power is shut off.  The decision to isolate yourself from the grid is a judgement call.

I had a mains carried power surge incident a month ago during an ice storm while i slept.  I was awoken by a loud `bang` in my bedroom.  A search revealed that the MOV surge protectors in a power bar supplying my TV and stereo in that room had exploded inside the case.  The big UPS in the basement that was powering my computer and other gear in my upstairs office was beeping.  Examination showed that one of the two MOV`s inside that protect the UPS from mains surges had partially exploded and gone short circuit taking out the 15 amp mains fuse. With the mains fuse open the batteries were not charging and the unit was operating in inverter mode with the power fail alarm beeping.  I was able to fix this rather expensive UPS (what a relief!) by replacing the two MOV`s and fuse.  No other damage was evident and it has been running just fine since.  The GFI outlet in my bathroom was making the strangest noise and has been found to not function any more.  I need to replace it.  This episode was pretty unusual, a first for me, but shows that there might be good justification in installing a large entryway surge protector at the main disconnect and breaker panel.  These unfortunately are expensive.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Quinnf on January 30, 2007, 01:14:13 AM
So...if an EMP can take out the grid, and fry the coil and condenser in a pre-1980s vintage car, what makes one think that an ST-___ generator would survive?

Reading that brought back memories of listening to a late night shortwave broadcast originating in, of all places, St. George, Utah.  A woman was calmly delivering a lesson on WTSHTF, black helicopters, food caches, etc., and explaining that when the UN troops come to get you, that your only hope is to have a good rifle that can score a head shot; a .223 is to be preferred.  Don't aim for the helmet because they're Kevlar lined; aim for the face.  That scored about a 6.7 on my weirdness meter.

One thing I must agree with is that when/if that happens the last thing any of us will be concerned about is whether we have enough generating capacity to keep the ice cream in the freezer hard.

Quinn
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Technonut on January 30, 2007, 01:33:05 AM
So...if an EMP can take out the grid, and fry the coil and condenser in a pre-1980s vintage car, what makes one think that an ST-___ generator would survive?

From Utterpower: http://utterpower.com/ST.htm

Quote
In closing.... Have you heard of an EMP?  Electro Magnetic Pulse ?  Some folks think that the use of  EMP tactical weapons becomes more likely everyday. One EMP could wipe out all the electronic devices, your car wouldn't work, your microwave, TV, radio, etc;  would be junk... How about that solid state ignition system on your trusty Briggs and Stratton? It would most likely be junk too. 

But... a generator built like the ST, powered by a small diesel with no electronics could be brought back on line in the matter of minutes.   Does it make a person radical to think about these things? Today.... I don't think so.

EDIT: To be a little more on topic, I read this up in the Listeroid Engine forum posted by Mike Montieth:  http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1615.0

Quote
I have applied to EPA for the Certificate of Conformity and have been assigned a manufacturer number. There is still a great deal of paperwork and testing yet to be done. At some point in the next month or so I'll need to ship one of my engines to the EPA test facility so the results can be documented. That'll be one of the most expensive parts of the certification. BTW, they are very interested in the engine "kits" and non-conforming engines in circulation. Yes, they are aware of them. I wouldn't be surprised if some importers got a call. Just what we need, more government.The government is here to "help" you.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 30, 2007, 03:17:58 AM
what makes me think an st head would survive?

it don't make a difference to me if it does or does not.
but faced with having to repair a generator i would rather be faced with rewinding an st head
rather than haveing to rework a high tech head, or one with some form of intricate regulator

actually i would probably go the automotive alternator route, i know they are made to work on

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on January 30, 2007, 04:18:49 AM
I wonder if you kept spare rectifiers in a heavy steel grounded box, if they might survive EMP? 
That's about the only electronics in a ST.
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on January 30, 2007, 05:36:52 AM
I wonder if you kept spare rectifiers in a heavy steel grounded box, if they might survive EMP? 
That's about the only electronics in a ST.
Zeke

Any small spares like that you want to survive just wrap in aluminum foil.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on January 30, 2007, 12:59:57 PM
Interesting, I would have thought that aluminum (or aluminium) foil, being non-ferrous would not do much to dissuade an EMP from hassling the devices therein.  How do the physics of that work out?  and is that why a foil helmet is such a good precaution against alien mind control?  ;D

Who'd have known?
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Joe on January 30, 2007, 01:29:19 PM
….that’s why I keep my spare diodes under my tin foil cap… ;)

Joe
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on January 30, 2007, 07:48:52 PM
I was just looking for an excuse to weld up a thick steel box!  Bet if I make it pyramid shaped.....
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: wiebe on January 30, 2007, 08:51:22 PM
Interesting, I would have thought that aluminum (or aluminium) foil, being non-ferrous would not do much to dissuade an EMP from hassling the devices therein.  How do the physics of that work out?  and is that why a foil helmet is such a good precaution against alien mind control?  ;D

Who'd have known?

y think he meens shorten the contacs of the brige so no voltage buldup can happen
my 2 cents
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on January 30, 2007, 10:30:43 PM
Interesting, I would have thought that aluminum (or aluminium) foil, being non-ferrous would not do much to dissuade an EMP from hassling the devices therein.  How do the physics of that work out?  and is that why a foil helmet is such a good precaution against alien mind control?  ;D

Who'd have known?

y think he meens shorten the contacs of the brige so no voltage buldup can happen
my 2 cents


Quote
y think he meens shorten the contacs of the brige so no voltage buldup can happen
my 2 cents

Sorry Wiebe, that is not the protection mechanism. To shorten the leads means to cut some off making them less lengthy.  I suspect you meant to write to short circuit them?  You could solder wires across the device leads, shorting them and an EMP could still blow up the diode(s).

Anyone else wanna try?
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: clytle374 on January 30, 2007, 11:03:40 PM
A old safe is my plan, 3 inch thick steel.
I remember  reading somewhere that using 3 insulated layers is best.
Example steel-insulation-copper-insulation-steel.  As the EM induced current in the first layer could re emit a EM wave.
Often  RF boxes on circuit boards of have steel/copper layers.
Cory
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Stan on January 31, 2007, 12:05:08 AM
Google "Faraday Cage" ;D
Stan
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Andre Blanchard on January 31, 2007, 07:00:13 PM
A friend told be one time he was at an electronics swap meet that was setup on the field of a football stadium.  They had all got there computers booted and were hapily showing off what they had build etc., this was when booting a computer involved lots of toggle switches or if you were lucky a stack of punched cards.

A maintenance guy comes along to do some work on a gate in the steel guard rail.  So he opens the gate clamps the welders ground on to the fence rail and strikes an arc on the fence on the other side of the open gate. :)
Think very large air core transformer with a single loop primary winding.
Every computer on the field stopped working.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on January 31, 2007, 07:34:11 PM
something else to consider

yesterday some bozo managed to climb up in the wheel well of a jumbo jet and fly from london to nyc
of course he froze to death in the process... but he got on board undetected!

now if you have a suitcase nuke, with a timer or cellphone detonator, and did as he did and stuff the suitcase instead
of himself into the wheel well... well now you have the emp and the delivery system all in place

so i guess it comes down to a question with "when" not "if"

what a wonderful world we live in :)

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on January 31, 2007, 10:37:19 PM
Dont EVEN want to think about what will happen to Pakistan's nukes when current leader dies/and/or killed by militants.  Here you are, Osama, with our compliments !
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Stan on January 31, 2007, 11:38:43 PM
Your right, he's only in there still because he has the support of the army.  I think he's had a couple of assassination attempts tried on him already.
Stan
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: Doug on January 31, 2007, 11:47:27 PM
I think historians will say that atomic weapons and in particular the thermo nuclear kind made real global shooting wars so frightening that peace was forced upon us. As their proliferation spread global powers were forced to abandon gun boat diplomacy. And one day negotiated world peace broke out.

Or

One day world peace will brake out and the roaches will get their chance at the brass ring.

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: phaedrus on February 27, 2007, 04:03:59 PM
OK....what's this got to do with the EPA?  But I'll bite into the off-topic too...  If humanity is going to be global and follow a technical growth path then fission explosives become do-able by individuals. (Fusion explosives are much more difficult to make and also quite unnecessary) Argue if you want, but you might want to read Ted Taylor and Richard Rhodes first, the simple fact is that fission explosives are within the capability of individuals. Nifty ordinance-grade stuff obviously is not, but workable truck-portable stuff is. What we are left with then is a situation where global dominance by capitalist exploitation irritates a large enough set of people that an occasional "terrorist" fission explosion is to be expected. The obvious tactic for the targets is to eliminate all privacy. It's not perfect, but it will minimize the number of explosions. Those that do occur will further empower the exploitative class in their drive to eliminate privacy and "identify would-be terrorists". Nuclear explosives have not and won't end war, they have changed it back to the basic form.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on March 01, 2007, 01:15:32 AM
Phaedrus,
Point well taken.  It's past time for people to think about how to live in this new world.  What will we have to be able to do for ourselves when NYC or DC goes up in smoke.  How long before disruption of transportation, power system, banking, basic government services, etc. are likely to return to normal.  How much food, fuel, ammunition, water, tiolet paper (for money), clothing, etc etc is enough to survive the disruption.  Will there be armed gangs of pillagers roaming the countryside?  Totally different set of problems for those in citys, towns, and rural areas.  One thing
is sure.  It will happen.  And there is plenty we can do now to increase our chances of survival.
The first to die will be those who figured "it could never happen to us", and made no preparations.  In reality a modest supply of food, water, clothing, ammunition, etc. would probably cost far less than a week in Cancun, and the payoff could be a chance for survival.
Bin Laden and his buddies are real.  They really want to kill us.  They will try again, and again.
Peace and Love,
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mactoollover2005 on March 01, 2007, 03:59:12 AM
Hi Guys
 I know this is a little off topic but it also follows along a little bit too,lol. One would think there is lots of fuel for everyone here in ontario canada, but with the fire at the esso fuel refinery production for gas wasdown by 30% and diesel was down 70% if i remember right. doesnt sound like much with all the stations around and different companies selling gas. well lets be realistic, that sudden loss of fuel as small as it was has sent a panic thru our society here in ont. people running around getting extra gas for just in case,( not a bad idea just lousy timing) the price of fuel jumping atleast 10 cents per liter, gas stations having to close completely because of empty fuel tanks for days on end if not longer    shell ,petro canada, husky,and a few of the other major companies all experienced some station closures due to excessive sales and their inability to react any faster for fuel resupply than they were used to all because of esso,s little loss of fuel production for a short time.
Now imagine if terrorrists actually did something to cut off lets say maybe 50% of all fuel produced life as we know it would radically change for a lot of people for a long time. Emergency services would get first dibbs on the fuel then trucking industry and the railway then maybe we would get a chance to buy  maybe 25 liters at a time for $3.00-$4.00 a liter. does it sound outrageouse? Just something to think over :o
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: captfred on March 01, 2007, 11:04:25 AM
A few years back the island of Guam took a direct hit by typhoon pongsona with winds up to 150 mph (or something like that).  During the storm the island fuel storage facility caught fire; diesel, gas, jetfuel etc.  People here on saipan and guam are well prepared for typhoons, but also expect to be able to buy gas for their cars to purchase ice, water, food and fuel for their generators to power their homes.  Needless to say, that expectation was not met; fortunately the people of guam received prompt assistance from fema, the military and their neighbors to the north. (saipan).

You, me, we, can't depend on normal infrastructure to be available after an event (natural or man-made).  Like Okiezeke said, spend some cash you would have used to go to Cancun (or in my case Phuket)  and stash a reasonable amount of food, fuel, ammo, books.  Oh yeah, don't forget the "meds" and first aide stuff.

I just hope i've got my listeroid up and running with  a stash of wvo and diesel put up before the next major "phoon" comes thru the island; or something worse happens.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rcavictim on March 01, 2007, 03:05:13 PM
The little glitch Ontario is now experiencing in it`s fuel supply because of a refinery fire and a strike by a national rail company should be a real shot over the bow wakeup call and for a few who are not toally f*****g asleep it will be, but most Ontaroids will quickly forget this brief discomfort and go on with their well programmed lives consuming beer and cablevision, giving most of their away from work attention to hockey or football and similar totally useless minutia.

This little episode clearly shows that our society is totally unprepared for the smallest terrorist or nature based  attack on infrastructure or basic necessary services.  Those idiots we entrust to spend our collected taxes wisely have pissed it away on the wrong priorities.  We need a lot more preparedness thinking at the top. Heed the Boyscout`s motto.  Be prepared!
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on March 01, 2007, 04:15:15 PM
I'm feeling a lot more this way after reading that Lights Out book that was mentioned on this site a month or two ago.  I've referred a couple of friends to it as well.  Granted we may not be hit with an EMP, but a grid failure like the East Coast of the USA experienced 3 years ago - if it lasted longer than it did things would get exceedingly ugly.

Various companies and individuals will say "It's ok, we have a generator"  but with a limited fuel store, or a run-till-it-blows-up type gasoline generator it won't be long before these "prepared" folk are in the same boat as the masses.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mactoollover2005 on March 01, 2007, 08:00:10 PM
Most ontarions have figured out that our provincial government hasnt done a thing and will never do anything to rock the boat if it means that big business will have to toe the provincial line. God forbid if the hydro companies upgrade their systems so we dont have blackouts because of some other power company in another province or country shuts down or have gas stations running out of fuel because one company reduces production.
But if you have a windmill that people find it blocks a viewor solar panels that reflect a little light at their house well then its hammer time and shut these bigtime offenders down and force them to remove the offensive items,after they are fined thousands of $$ sheesh, its screw the little people and let big companies that can grease the politicians sticky palms with green grease society. what happened to honest, trustworthy,keep their word people and politicians. o ya, they got black balled ,fired, framed,etc, u get the idea.
Just my little rant of the week knowing that something like this will happen again and our goverment will listen to the people bitching and promise to fix the problem  ,,,,until people put their heads back in the ground, whitch is about 30 minutes after the problem is over then its back to not upsetting big companies who donate big $ to their election coffers.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on March 01, 2007, 09:50:33 PM
Survivalists,

There are two general ways to look at this problem.  The easiest, and probably most realistic, is to be able to hold on to a reasonable standard of living for a week or month until things level out.  This is within the means of all of us, at reasonable expense. 

The more radical view would be a disaster on such a scale that it might be a year or more to recover(as in the Postman movie).  This would be a lot harder to prepare for.   Just a thought though,  If you were going to stash a few things for a major mess,  what would it be?  Hard liquor, ammunition, and toilet paper.  These are things that will store forever, and always be in demand.  You could barter them for anything you might need.  And if you didnt need them, just think of the party you could have.
Zeke

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: mobile_bob on March 02, 2007, 04:28:07 AM
very high on the list of things to put away and keeps forever for a very modest price
Bleach, clorox

one of the things that becomes a severe problem in short order is water that is fit to drink.
new orleans was drowning in water,, but none of it was fit to drink.

as far as barter,,

cigarettes,, smokers will kill for a cig,,, especially in times of high stress.

it is widely said that basically in a severe calamity, you need to provide for 30 days,,
this is the time you want to be able to hunker down and not show your face,,
those that are unprepared will expire without food and water within this timeframe.

i am not a doomboomer,, but i look at being prepared as only so much insurance
we insure our cars, homes, health etc... why not insurance against thirst and hunger?

bob g
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: draganof on March 02, 2007, 04:58:16 AM
Interesting topic, if you dropped an air tight shell over my house the wife and I could last 6-9 months without coming out. But then the lack of oxygen would kill me unless the wife decided she had enough of me. Then it would only be a matter of weeks, or days. On the serious side though after 23 yrs in the military and surviving a few military conflicts and seeing other people totally loose it during emergencies here at home it is an easy choice to be prepared. It doesn't take a lot of effort or money to purchase a few extra items and put them away for when TSHTF. You will be surprised how much you have after a couple of years.
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on March 02, 2007, 02:41:05 PM
I hadn't thought about the bartering aspects at all.  Having a few cartons of cigarettes (even though I don't smoke) would not be a bad idea would it.  They keep pretty well, I spose you could put them in the freezer and when the nicotine cravers have something you need you've got something better than money to barter with.  I have a pretty well stocked bar so I think we could either barter for a bit or have a hell of a party.

In my neighborhood I would have to figure out who knows what or who has what skill.  One of my buddies was a gun dealer and would be a go-to guy for protection when TSHTF.  I have to get my carry permit sorted out ahead of armageddon I suppose and make a little stash.

Bleach is a commodity that lasts forever, I wonder if you can get the active ingredient without the water added to it?  Having a decent first aid kit is a must, I can't imagine what kind of a zoo the hospitals would be like when people start looting and pillaging and finding out the hard way who has firearms and are willing to protect their stuff.

99% of the population is happy to live with their heads in the sand.. those folk are in for a rude awakening.

RC
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: captfred on March 03, 2007, 03:40:30 AM
Our municipal water supply is atrocious, unpottable due to seawater intrusion of the island aquafur.  We built a 15,000 gal cistern storage system into our foundation and collect rainwater.  For purification we filter for particulates then process thru a u.v. reactor that kills any pathogens - including cysts like chryptospirodium that bleach does not kill.

The system works very well ( I test my water for pathogens every other month) and is a great alternative to distillation (high energy costs) and chemical (did I put in 6 drops or only 5?) .
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on March 03, 2007, 05:53:48 AM
I'll vouch for UV treatment, I work for a company that sells bottled water.  In the past we used to use ozonation to kill any pathogens in the water that might be there (just a tall cylinder with ozone bubbling up through it - it would oxidize anything it found) the drawbacks to that was it left particles of things it killed which had to then be filtered out.

Now we do some heavy duty UV treatment of the water as part of the process before it goes into the fillers.  There is an expiration date on the water bottles but I'd wager they'd be safe long after that.  the only thing I have noticed with bottles kept for an extended period of time is somehow some of the water disappears and the bottles get softer and easier to squeeze.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: okiezeke on April 01, 2007, 08:47:25 PM
Capt  Fred,
I've spent a lot of time in the Bahamas.  They use cisterns there too, but havent seen any with more than a particulate filter.  They seem to get by, guess your gut can get used to anything.  Another thing I saw a lot was reverse osmosis systems fed by brine wells.  By taking the salt water from a well, it is already filtered and minimal worries about pollutants.  I drank a lot of both, and the only side effect is my desire to own large green engines with flywheels.
Zeke
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: captfred on April 02, 2007, 12:02:14 PM
Hey Zeke,

Back in the day when I was living on the boat, I collected rainwater for drinking and cooking: no worries ( course I did come down with a coupla nasty cases of dysentery in central america,  probably from some restaurant-  the rest of the cruise around the pacific, no dysentery).


Anyway, here on Saipan we hold the distinction as the only insular area under the American Flag as having an un-potable municipal water supply. Living out in the boondocks, surrounded by jungle we get a lot of crap in the water we collect; decaying vegetation, bird, bat and gecko droppings; and my cat loves to leave dead mice and rats up on our roof.

I've worked on a few R.O. systems on several boats, but found the maintenance considerations too high for home use (and quite frankly the water it produces  doesn't taste as good as rainwater). The UV system has low power consumption, low maintenance ( just clean the quartz tube when I change out the particulate filter cartridges and change the uv light tube once a year) and is highly reliable.  I filter particulates down to 3 microns, which is probably ok, bit I  look at the UV as insurance; When the SHTF I really don't want to worry about trying to get medical attention for dysentery (trust me, no fun at all) or something worse.

I really like the idea of self reliance- producing my own water (rain-catchment and cisterns with UV) and power (listeroid generator with inverter and battery backup).  I guess I'll have to learn to write my own books, too. ;D

On a side note, my desire to own a large green engine with flywheels has been realized; my arrived from Anand a few days ago, I was going to have it delivered today, but Typhoon Kong-rey popped up and spoiled my plans.  Hope to have it delivered after the blows  through and start the tear-down for inspection and moving into the generator bunker.

cheers, fred

Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: rmchambers on April 02, 2007, 01:14:39 PM
Fred,
   At least your cistern will be full.  Do you have the tablets to sanitize the water too in case you lose power for whatever reason?  I'm just thinking when TSHTF you may want to have all your bases covered because water is the one thing you can't live without.

Good luck with the new engine, and let me be the first to say "post some pictures!" when it comes.

Robert
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: captfred on April 03, 2007, 12:18:14 AM
Hey Robert

I keep a few gallons of household bleach available for sanitizing filters etc that could be used in a pinch if necessary.  Until the generator is up and running I can run my household very comfortably on my inverter and batteries for about 24 hours,  under extreme conservation (a few lights and the UV system) maybe a week.  Eventually  I hope to have a coupla months of fuel stored up.

Will definitely be documenting the teardown and post as good (hopefully) or bad are found.

Cheers, Fred
Title: Re: EPA ANSWERS
Post by: dkwflight on April 03, 2007, 12:58:24 AM
Hi
A number of years ago I lived with a cistern. The water was trucked in from a treatment plant Clorinated when it went into the truck. So it was pretty clean stuf. It also got rain when we got some.
The water would get some scum on the surface. Really very thin and colorless.
I would put 1 cup of bleach in the 2000 + gallon tank would keep the scum off for a month or more.

The rock did not have enough cracks to keep any water. Some of the neighbors had well drilled very deep and got around 1/2 gallon a day.
Dennis
None of us would drink the stuf, just for flushing toilets and washing.