Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: lip5er4 on January 08, 2007, 08:12:10 AM

Title: K1 kerosine
Post by: lip5er4 on January 08, 2007, 08:12:10 AM
Hi guys Im new to the forum,Heres a quesrtion, can I burn K1 kerosine <(with lister} and maybe 1 quart of waste engine oil, to 5gallons of kerosene, just wondering?
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: rmchambers on January 08, 2007, 01:32:22 PM
Thats the beauty of these engines (and most diesels in general).  You can burn a variety of fuels fairly easily.

Biodiesel, #2 heating oil, diesel, kerosene, Jet-A, etc.  With Waste Veggie Oil, Waste Motor Oil and the like you have to make sure that the fuel is clean so it won't gunk up your pump and injector (or wear them out) and the viscosity is important.  Heavy thick fluids won't pump and inject as well as freer flowing liquids.  If you have a peek around the website at injection heating you can see how folks have put heat tape on their injectors/pipes to ensure that the higher viscosity fluids are hot enough to flow freely by the time they hit the injection apparatus.

You can mix the oil and the kerosene as well which will lighten up the mixture and obviate the need for heating the equipment lines.  Just make sure the old engine oil is filtered so keep the abrasive materials out of the food supply for the Lister.

Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: mobile_bob on January 09, 2007, 07:11:45 AM
my bet is  you could go as far as 50/50 without much trouble, certainly with a warm engine.
might be a bit tough below 40 degree F, to start by hand
but they will burn just about anything that is clean and within reason on viscosity (close to the being runny as diesel)

bob g
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: cujet on March 03, 2007, 04:42:36 PM
I purchased a number of cases of Stanadyne lubricity additive for use with Jet A fuel (kero). I then had 3 samples tested. Straight Kero, Kero with Lubricity additive and Kero with Lubricity and 2 stroke oil (100/1). The HFRR (high freq recip rig test) results were impressive.

Straight K1 (jet A) has little lubricity and the HFRR wear scar is quite large. This indicates rapid injection system wear.
lubricity additive improves the performance to near D2 levels.
Two stroke oil improves the lubricity to well better than D2 levels.

Sorry I did not have K1 and oil tested. However Cummins engine manuals suggest using 5% motor oil with Jet A for proper lubricity. My guess is that 5% motor oil will provide well more lubricity than you will ever need.

Think about it this way, two stroke engines often use a mix of 50/1 (2%) for complete and total engine lubrication needs. In fact, before the advent of high quality 2 stroke oil, 30W was required at 4-5%.


Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: GIII on March 03, 2007, 05:32:22 PM
Under the for what it's worth dept. the direct injected Metro on the tugboat runs fine on any mix of used oil and #2 up to about 40% used oil.  More than that and the 2-71 gets unhappy so we haven't gone further on the boat.  We hand cranked the Metro at 26 F a couple of weeks ago with no problem on that mix.  Just turn on the fuel, set the compression release, spin 4 times and flip the release lever.  Doesn't get much easier!  The Atlas cranked pretty well too but takes forever to warm up at those temperatures!

Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: Ironworks on March 03, 2007, 09:48:01 PM
Kerosene will not lubricate the injection pump.  You will need an additive.  It will like about any oil you mix with it as long as its not synthetic or hydraulic/transmission fluid.   ;)
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: listeroil on March 04, 2007, 01:59:03 PM
The 1952 Lister 5/1 manual states this.

Burning or Illuminating Paraffin (Kerosene) may be used as a fuel if
1/4 pint of lubricating oil is added to 1 gallon.

Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: phaedrus on March 14, 2007, 04:39:06 PM
This is related to diesels and gasoline engines and LPG – but is related to kerosene too- it’s a fuel thing. I invite comments, particularly if anybody has experimented along the lines I posit.

Nearby there’s a pretty lake where “gasoline engines” are prohibited. It’s too big to explore with muscle-power alone and surrounded by steep hills there’s no wind to sail, so nobody boats on it. Neat! I’ve got the pieces to put together a boat with a Wisconsin twin gasoline motor, about 18 horse-power, big old-fashion air-cooled, and HEAVY! It’s pretty low compression, a flathead. I think I can get it to start and run on “doctored” kero…if so then a nice little brass plate could be attached to the motor, saying something like “KEROSENE MOTOR”, (‘nuff for a snoopy cop to buzz off, the sign does say “gasoline”!)

So this part is mostly about kerosene…  Butane and propane, the LPG that we buy, will dissolve in gasoline, try it, but don’t make any sparks, ok? Anyway, my chemistry tells me that LPG will dissolve in kerosene too, just inject the “gas”, as a liquid, into the bottom of a tank of cold kero. Measure the amount and keep it to a modest percentage, say 5%, and the increased vapor pressure ought to make vaporization in the gasoline carburetor similar to the vaporization characteristics of gasoline. If 5% isn’t enough, 10% ought to do it, just add enough to raise the vapor pressure so that it’s similar to gasoline and the motor will start – or so it seems to me. Knock quality might be pretty bad, but on a low compression motor, like a flathead, that ought not to be a problem.

In regard to doctoring fuel, what if LPG is dissolved in diesel engine fuel, either commercial petroleum, biodiesel, waste lube-oil, or vegetable oil, and used in a lister-type or other diesel? I am unsure about the solubility of LPG in vegetable oil or esterfied bio diesel, but think it will/might dissolve ok. Now, LPG is a greenhouse gas. In a diesel engine LP acts as an “accelerant”, and LP “fumigation” is an accepted tactic, the LP being added, metered, as a gas and absorbing the radiate heat of a fuel burn, the gas temperature goes HIGH and it burns too. There’s a significant efficiency increase because less heat is lost to the jacket, and more carbon gets burned from the main fuel, etc. But if LPG were dissolved in the fuel it would inject as a liquid dissolved in the primary fuel through the injector. Much simpler! Same result. There are pollution aspects here, and safety too, as diesel engine fuel is safe to transport and use, in part, because of its low vapor pressure. Still, if the doctored diesel was bunkered it’s be quite safe. To soften the blow to the pump/injector system adding a lube-oil like marvel mystery oil might be a good bet too, the LPG fraction having crappy lubricating qualities. I wonder, then, about the influence dissolved LPG would have on the carbon build-up rate in a lister type…huuummmmm…


Thanks,  Phaedrus
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: rmchambers on March 14, 2007, 05:39:49 PM
   It's an interesting proposition for sure but I'd worry about containment of the LPG, I don't think dissolving it or trying to keep it in with the Kerosene is going to be doable and probably not even safe.  LPG canisters are a lot thicker than gas tanks and as things warm up, the pressure will build up in the tank.

From what I remember from my youth with a dual fuel International Harvester tractor (farmall) the engine was started and brought up to operating temps on gasoline/petrol and once it was good and hot, the kerosene was turned on and the petrol was turned off - sort of the same way folks do the WVO/SVO with a diesel start/stop.

It would seem to me, and I'm not an expert in this although I have converted one small briggs and stratton fan engine from gas to propane injection that you'd probably be better off getting a proper gas regulator (they have a special name but it eludes me) that acts in place of the carburettor on a normal gasoline engine.

This way you wouldn't have to worry about mixing volatile gas mixtures.  Just turn on the propane (or lpg if that's what you're using) and fire up the engine.  It will burn very clean and should be relatively safe.  A BBQ sized tank of LPG would probably last you quite a while I'd guess. 

As for snoopy cops, "no gasoline on the boat sir, it runs on natural gas"  The restriction is probably there because they don't want two stroke's putting a film on the water and making all that noise.  Keeps Jetski's off too.  Since you're complying with the letter of the law you should be ok.

or am I missing part of the big picture?

Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: biobill on March 14, 2007, 10:25:40 PM
Interesting idea. Do you think that the kero/propane miix would have to be kept pressurized or cold to keep the propane in solution? Sure would be nice to just run a gallon of clean out fuel every couple hundred hours.  Let the testing begin.        Bill       
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: Tom on March 14, 2007, 10:54:54 PM
Why not just put a LPG carb in the engine and be done with it?
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: phaedrus on March 14, 2007, 11:02:09 PM
Hi Bob!

I’m pretty sure that the pressure change is minor in terms of tanks. The “law” from my chemistry classes, long ago, is, I think, “Rault’s Law”; it says that vapor pressure is roughly proportional to the molar fraction. That is to say that if the LPG pressure is, say 100 psi and you mix, dissolve, it into kerosene at 5%, making a solution that’s 95% kero, then the new vapor pressure is about 5 psi. I assume that the vapor pressure of kero is zero here, it isn’t, but it’s low. For comparison the vapor pressure of common gasoline is given as 414 mm (hg) at 100 degrees C. 30 inches of mercury is about 14.7 psi, which would indicate that the vapor pressure of gasoline is something like 208 psi at the boiling point of water. Of course it’s much lower at normal storage temperature. What I’m saying is that no special tankage requirements would be necessary, just treat the doctored kero or diesel more or less as you’d treat a tank of gasoline.

I had a neighbor who had a farmall tractor that used gasoline to start and then ran on diesel. Complicated! Also neat!

The lake is the “surge tank” immediately downstream of a BIG dam, it winds through a beautiful canyon. The water runs into a system of canals to irrigate many thousands of acres of rice. I’m not sure why they prohibit “gasoline engines” and not just twostrokes, but my hunch is that they just don’t want anybody there – that way they have no rescues, less expense, and need no boat-patrol. The water is very cold and a man would die pretty quickly if he fell in….then they’d have all that expense and mess.

If I get “caught” with my kero motor boat, or a LPG powered boat, I think they’ll just change the rule to “no boats”. We’ll see. There’s a guy in Canada that sells LPG setup for the Wisconsin. I do like the smell of kero though, and think it’d be neat to run one. They puff white smoke a lot, or so I’ve been told. Puffpuffpuffpuff…little white clouds over the water… an art project and exercise in anarchy – or something like that.

I am particularly interested in the dynamics of fuel consumption with doctored diesel…and suspect that efficiency might increase significantly with even a small amount of LPG dissolved in commercial diesel fuel. I don’t have the set up at this point, flow meters and so forth, to do any science on this notion. But I do intend to do it.
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: rcavictim on March 14, 2007, 11:05:36 PM
Why not just put a LPG carb in the engine and be done with it?


You are a true genius!   ;D
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: MeanListerGreen on March 14, 2007, 11:11:01 PM
  Straight propane from a grill tank would be the way to go.  Never heard of mixing it.  I don't think it's possible.  LPG in a liquid form would probably solidify the kerosene, IMO.  It seems to me it has to be kept under pressure so I can't imagine how you would introduce the kerosene to it.  

  You can put a regulator on the grill tank, take the plug out of the float bowl of the carburetor and run a line to the float bowl (this has to be regulated) and I would suggest putting a flame arrestor on it as well.   There are also "on demand" diapghrams that only feed LPG when there is a demand for it.  They use these on hit or miss engines.

I kind of doubt if running a "non gasoline"  engine on the lake  will keep the law off your back.  Good luck to ya any way!  Give em hell!!
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: MeanListerGreen on March 15, 2007, 02:46:19 AM
I wanted to add that the regulator has to be a type that is "vacuum controlled flow"  Otherewise you could have a potential bomb on your hands.
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: adhall on March 15, 2007, 03:19:28 AM
Here is a link to a website about propane & natural gas conversions for small engines:

As well as selling parts, they also have technical information.

Please note, I have not done business with these guys and cannot vouch for them.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
Title: Re: K1 kerosine
Post by: phaedrus on March 15, 2007, 08:24:10 PM
regarding mixing propane with diesel (or kero) see United States Patent 4397655

They mix

I'm a bit out of my depth with respect to the chemistry/physics involved, and acting on a hunch, am going to do some reading. It seems to me to be a promising line to learn about.