Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: Flydoctor on December 19, 2006, 07:22:53 PM
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I recently converted my truck to WVO. I had to drive to Oaklahoma this weekend and the 650 mile trip from Houston cost me literally $29 in diesel for start up, purges and the last bit of miledge on diesel whan I ran out of oil on the return home. Pretty cool...
Anyway, I have now secured two sources of WVO and one makes about 200 a week and thoe other 100 a week. So, I decided to make my home run on WVO with a 30HP lister, which I am working on and will keep you posted.
Anyway, I now have 1000 gallon stotage capacity at home and i wanted to know just how long this poil will last before use? Can it be stored indefinetly? Months? What? I originally thought I could get a storage unit and simply store up tones of oil for a rainey day...but now I am wondering it if can be held very long at all?
Thanks
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Couple of things to keep in mind.
1. Cleanliness. Is the oil pretty clean and free of floaty contaminants that could harbor and feed undesirables?
2. Moisture. Is the oil dry? Having moisture in the oil especially that which can coalesce into larger pockets will provide bacteria with water that they will then use to create more bacteria and so on.
can you right up a heat exchanger to the lister to keep the oil tank warm and help drive off the moisture?
Sounds like you are on to a good thing though!
Robert
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I collected about 200 gallons of WVO over a year ago. I let it settle, pumped and filtered the good stuff into plastic 55 gallon drums that were sealed except for a small breather hole. No additives. Their in the shade but outdoors. Its still good. In the future I'll do the same thing but add biocide and Diesel 911 to it when I filter it. I havn't smelt rancid WVO yet but have been told by a good source you'll know it immediatly.
Thanks, Geno
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If you centrifuge the oil to remove the water, solids and glycerin it should store without risk of mold etc.
If you do get mold, spray on/mix in some oil of Thyme - it is an amazing fungicide.
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Centrifuges are effective ..but expensive.
I only use them for commercial/fleet wvo fuel processing.
Commercial centrifuges cost $5K to $30K.
You can filter wvo and then settle even suspended water out fairly easily and cheaply if you only need 150 gal per wek.
Such a prefilter/dewatering rig can be fabricated with simpel tools for around $150 average cost. I ahve done it for as little as $75 but I am a very good scavenger.
If particulates down to 10 microns are removed..and so is all water (suspended as well as free) you can pretty much forget about any biological degradation. But you still need to be concerened with oxidation reaction based degradation. The simplest way to avoid this is to fill any long term storage containers as full as you possibly can so no air remains over the oil to provide oxygen for such reactions.
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I filter the oil down to 5 microns...so hopefully no food for critters...
But I am familiar with starage of fine wine. You should store it in a plastic bottle, then squeeze out the air befor sealing...this backs up the last post of removing as much air as possible. Is a breather hole necessary??
I have 333 gallon storage units, stacked. If I do store I will do so in 55 gallon drums...how much "biocide" or "thyme" would you suggest as a safety measure??
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I never use biociide so cannot advise on it's use. Same with thyme.
On my large storage (industrial) installations I used to use an inert gas to displace O2.
Then I found that it was just as effective to use a floating fuel pickup so the VO exposed to the most O2 was used first rather than sitting exposed so long it formed a polymerised skin.
I still draw a 1% of the tank volume from the bottom each week and pass it back through the prefiltering/dewatering processors to eliinate any water from condensation and remove the smaller than 10 micron particulates that tend to settle out in storage.
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On my large storage (industrial) installations I used to use an inert gas to displace O2.
Then I found that it was just as effective to use a floating fuel pickup so the VO exposed to the most O2 was used first rather than sitting exposed so long it formed a polymerised skin.
Got a part number or source for floating fuel pickups? I'm building my tanks right now, and that would be a handy item.
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No sorry,
I custom fabricated them myself.
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Probably a silly question...but I have a Racor filter...how much water can a diesel handle and doesn;t my filter take out the small bit that might come from condensation?
I did a crackle test today on some oil and it passed with flying colors...
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Water in even minute amounts can damage IP pump internals.
No filter will remove these minute amounts of suspended water.
Large droplet free water may be removed by most filters...but Racors are no more adept at removing suspended water from wvo than any others. It pretty much passes through unimpeded and on to your IP to create cavitation damage.
I can not say for certain that a lister(iod) IP is as succeptible to this damage as IPs iin more high speed diesels are. Mainly because I have never run wvo that has not been dewatered as completely as possible in the listers I am responsible for.
My suspicion is they are just as succeptible as all other IPs though.
A crackle test willl not determine if suspended water is present.
Even a hot pan test (which is much more sensitive) will not detect suspended water if the wvo has been dewatered by evaporative means.
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Well the term `hot pan test` sounds pretty self explanatory, but what is a `crackle test`? How high are the colors supposed to fly? :D
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Cracle test is explained on teh Frybrid website.
I delveloped the HotPan Test several years ago so those using wvo for fuel had a simple, cheap, but very accurate test for water even at very low levels ( under 100ppm) in WVO.
It continues to be developed.
The test as it stands currently is:
Smear an oil dampened finger of wvo accross a cool cast iron fry pan.
This will serve to indicate when the pan is reaching test temperature.
Keep the sample of wvo to be tested handy. Enough for 1/4"-3/8" thickness covering the bottom works best.
Heat the pan on medium high temp until the smear begins to produce smoke then pour in the sample.
Observe the sample where the oil contacts the pan surface. Very small bubbles forming on the pan/oil interface indicate suspended water in the sample.
The density of bubbles indicates how much water is present in suspended form.
Many large bubbles indicate the sample contains at leas 1000 ppm of water in the sample.
Many small bubbles indicate the sample contains 500-1000 ppm of water in the sample.
3-4 bubbles per square inch indicate 200-300 ppm of water in the sample.
1-2 bubbles per square inch indicate under 100 ppm of water in the sample.
If crackling or popping is heard..over 1000ppm of water is present in the sample.
Optimumly you want to use VO fuel that contains less than 100ppm of water for maximum injector pump and injector life.
NOTES:
Do not pour in a sample with any visible water.
If water droplets are visible no testing is needed. There is water present in your sample.
Visible droplets of water will spatter hot oil out of the pan and may cause burns or fire.
Do not average bubble count. The visibility of bubbles is dependent on the temp of the underlying pan and this may be regionalized depending on your heat source.
If the pan has been washed or not used previously it must be "seasoned" to make certain that no moisture is trapped in the pores on the surface of cast iron.
False positive results (bubbles) can be obtained if the pan is WAY too hot..or if solvents are mixed in the WVO.
False negative results (no bubbles) are possible if the suspended water has high concentrations of salt/sugar/ acids.
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Dana, thanks for posting more around here. Your experience and insight make you a valuable asset.
Thanks, Geno
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Dana,
Thank`s for posting your oil qualification test details here. There was a lot more to a `hot pan` test than I imagined.
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I hope I am an asset to the forum.
Although I have a few co-generation installations "under my belt" they provided just enough education to make me realize I had a lot more to learn about listeroid engines. I try to give as much as I take..and a little more and so since I hope to be drawing upon the collective knowledge, skill, and intellect of this forum I feel oblgated to provide what I can in reuturn.
I cannnot simply "download" what I have learned in the past 15 years of wvo use and resaerch though. So if you have questions it is probably best to ask them by starting a new discussion or reviving an old on on that subject. Email me the link to it if I do not respond in a day or two. I am juggling a lot of projects/obligations currently and may not notice otherwise. I have appeared to ignore posts here in the past..and do not want to repeat that.
By the same token...I am a relative newbie here...so if you have a criticism or suggestion regarding something I post please just spit it out. It is through these I usually learn the most.
Thanks,