Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: buffdownunder on December 16, 2006, 10:07:07 PM
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Hi there,
I had a look at Sam's lister (warnepower.com) engines and managed to convince my friend to use one as addition to his solar system (in design phase). Welll he wants an autostart device that is controled by the power control unit. Sam promised to send me something on this as soon as he is back but my friend wants to go ahead now.
In order to make him still take a lister I need a solution on how to make an autostart device (and shut-off). Does anybody have plans, kits, ... to get this sorted out quickly?
Thanks
Edward
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I haven't yet found someone who can provide details on how to build one, or who can quote me costs for delivery of parts for a kit. Therefore, I'm building my own electric-start. I'm going for a fairly portable design that won't be tied to one particular engine - it's belt-driven, so it can easily move between engines with slightly different flywheels, mounting distances, and mounting rigs. Parts that I've collected for construction:
- 11 7/8 Chevy flex plate (starting gear)
- 6-rib serpentine pulley (I think it's about 4 inches in diameter)
- two pillow bearings (for the ends of the shaft)
- one 12v starter motor from a Chevy engine to match the gear pattern
on the flex plate (153 tooth)
- one 300 amp Leece-Neville truck alternator (12v)
- one H taper lock bushing to secure pulley on shaft
- one segment of keyed 5/8 shaft
- long serpentine belt (don't know how long yet...)
- 1/2" steel plate, around 6" wide and 23" long
- lots of 1" tube steel for creating mounting framework(s)
- some 2" tube steel for larger mounting framework
So the general thought is to make a small mount for the flex plate and pulley (like a ferris wheel, if you can picture it) and then bolt the pulley to the flex plate and key/taper lock the pulley to the shaft. The starter motor will then engage on the flex plate, spinning the assembly (and pulley) which will in turn drive the belt and spin up the Listeroid. The auto generator will be mounted pushing up from inside on the top of the belt, serving two purposes: first, obviously, to generate DC to recharge the starting system and to run all the other junk I have on the control system which is 12v. The other purpose will be to take up the slack on the belt - the starting system will be fixed in place, while the alternator will be able to pivot and apply variable pressure on the serpentine belt just like in an automobile. I didn't feel like having to design the starting assembly in such a way that it was on slotted mount points, so the alternator will take up the slack in the belt.
I have all the parts, and the base is being welded up now. I'll post some pictures as soon as there's something reasonable to show. The downside of the whole thing is that it's not cheap - all these little bits and pieces add up ($30 for each bearing, etc.) and so it's probably not going to be something that is an el-cheapo method of getting an auto-start. The other minor downside is that to change the belt, you have to unbolt one of the pillow bearings, but that's not a big deal as far as I'm concerned given what I expect to be the life span of a 6-rib belt on this system.
Other gotchas in my design:
- the starter engine is mounted with the bulk of the starter towards the center of the rig, just like the ST generator. This shouldn't be a problem because of my particulars, and I'm sure could be modified by others t match their needs.
- requires an alternator (or at least a pivoting pulley) to consume slack on the belt
- makes reaching inside the engine area HIGHLY hazardous (the flex plate is essentially a buzz saw) - no big deal for me, since I am automating the fuel rack shutoff, and since this has enough power to start my 12/2 without decompressing I don't need to do anything with the exhaust valve lifters during the starting phase so my hands will always be well clear
My design has a concept of automatic starting, too, where the starter is applied for N seconds and then (RPM, voltage) is examined to see if the engine is running on it's own. If not, wait Z seconds and try again for Y cycles. However, all the fancy stuff could just be ditched in favor of the "press the starter button until you hear the engine firing" method which is easily done by a human. That's all electrical magic; I think the big trick to start with is to get the mechanical magic done and tested.
JT
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I'd get the remainder of the system designed, and built. Trying to do too much at once leads to problems.
Autostart / stop, as I think that you have envisioned, probably requires a secondary electrical system. You'd probably need to mount an electric starter, alternator, and geared flywheel from a vehicle to the listeroid. This will take some time. Don't forget that working part-time, your first Listeroid will take about two weeks to put into service - if you have no major problems. On the other hand, if you have problems, you are looking at up to six or more weeks.
If your friend must have a solution today, take a look at some of the 5KW Changfa generators out there. For less than $1200 USD (here in North America), he would have a portable, off-the-shelf power plant. Later, when the remainder of the system is in, he could add the Listeroid at his leisure.
If the need is not immediate, leave this part of the puzzle blank. Design and build for-but-not-with the genset.
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If you have access to a boatyard thast does work on charter fishing boats or sailboats, talk to them. A lot of them have remote autostart gennies that work the same way as the Lister SOMs. Turn something on and the gennie cranks up, runs and shuts down by itself. The stuff I'm talking about is a control panel that performs all of the neccessary functions.
Here's a couple to look at.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLC%2CGGLC%3A1969-53%2CGGLC%3Aen&q=%22generator+control+panel%22&btnG=Search
http://www.generatorparts4less.com/panels.html
Of course these are probably expensive and more than you need. However an electrician who is well experienced and competent with timers and relays can make up one to suit. Looking at a boatyard could very well hook you up with an older, fully functional unit that is being scrapped when a new generator is being installed in a boat.
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If you have access to a boatyard thast does work on charter fishing boats or sailboats, talk to them. A lot of them have remote autostart gennies that work the same way as the Lister SOMs. Turn something on and the gennie cranks up, runs and shuts down by itself. The stuff I'm talking about is a control panel that performs all of the neccessary functions.
Here's a couple to look at.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLC%2CGGLC%3A1969-53%2CGGLC%3Aen&q=%22generator+control+panel%22&btnG=Search
http://www.generatorparts4less.com/panels.html
Of course these are probably expensive and more than you need. However an electrician who is well experienced and competent with timers and relays can make up one to suit. Looking at a boatyard could very well hook you up with an older, fully functional unit that is being scrapped when a new generator is being installed in a boat.
Nice control panels!
Check out this other thread; links to pictures of the mount for the starting gear that I'm building.
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1298.msg18767#msg18767
I found this control panel, which seemed to do pretty much everything I wanted:
http://www.crompton-instruments.com/genset.html (then select "Genset Controllers" from the pulldown menu for the PDF description file)
GEN-TRANS-EN/L is the model. Looks pretty snappy, and according to a reseller, costs $375. What? $375 is less than a single Crompton analog gauge, but apparently that's the price on this very full-featured controller. However, I don't actually have it in my hands yet, so I'm fuly expecting to get the call where the reseller says "Oh, sorry, that's just for the wiring harness - the controller is $1500." or something like that.
JT
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For that kind of money Square D has somethign I've noticed cropping up in some new substations thats been replacing th Crompton analog I'm used to. Power logics I think its called. Random buttom pushing on the units show me frequency, amps, volts, watts, PF, kwh in a nice back lit LCD display in a 5 inch panle moutn.
Price, I don't even ask....
BTW this sprt of thing needs CTs...
Doug
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Thank you all for your great input. The electrical site is covered by a buddy that does all this stuff professionally. I was more interested in the mechanical part of engaging and disengaging the starter unit without adding anything to the balanced lister shaft.
The featured method looks nice and I will go with it. Thanks.
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Thank you all for your great input. The electrical site is covered by a buddy that does all this stuff professionally. I was more interested in the mechanical part of engaging and disengaging the starter unit without adding anything to the balanced lister shaft.
The featured method looks nice and I will go with it. Thanks.
Note that the method that I am using (shown in the pictures: http://www.loligo.com/lister/pictures/19.html) requires in it's configuration that the starter be counter-clockwise rotation. This is not the "normal" spin for a GM starter, so a custom one is required. There are Mercury marine starters that spin CCW, and in retrospect I probably should have used one of those since they seem to be a bit more avaialble. Now, of course, I could have also flipped the starter motor over so it mounted from the other side of the flex plate, but I had some space constraints that prevented me from doing that in this application (maybe you don't have the same constraints and so you could modify the design slightly and use a "stock" GM starter.)
The other thing I'll mention is that I'm using a rather small 8-groove pulley because I had it on hand. I'd suggest making the pulley as large as you possibly can. You might even want to use one of the generator pulleys from the various people who make them. This is because with the small pulley, I only get to about .8 RPS (revolutions per second) and that may or may not be enough to fire the engine (haven't tried yet - engine is not in "operating" mode in the current rig.) The starter has no problem turning the engine over, also, but I can see the belt slipping when it hits the compression cycles which makes me think that a larger surface area would help for a more reliable turn. So I think a generator pulley would do the trick, as long as it's smaller than the flywheel so as not to interfere with the starter motor.
Also, since this bit me it's worth mentioning: when you mount the pulley on the flex plate, make sure the belt won't rub against the flex plate edge - add spacers if required. Hopefully the pulley you use will have a gap between the outer edge of the pulley and where the grooves start but if not be aware that you'll need something there since the flexplate tooth ring actually hangs over the edge of the flex plate a bit, so a perfectly snug fit between the pulley and flex plate may create an abrasion situation later.
I have the alternator in place as well now, but I don't have any pictures up yet. The mounting method on that is a bit more dicey; I opted for "quick and easy" instead of "slow and difficult" and so it only gives me about 1.75 inches of belt slack absorption instead of infinite adjustment. Maybe that's enough...
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Thanks for this additional info JT.
One question that might be really stupid. I looked at the photos of your starter setup and asked myself why you didn't put the flex plate on the generator axis. This way you save a belt, an axis, bearings, ......
Then I want to use a heavy duty charger that I have to recharge the starter battery so I don't need any additional alternator. Anything objecting against this?
Cheers,
Edward
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Here's another supplier of an autostart box
http://www.turbineservices.co.uk/auto_start.htm
and another
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/products/genset_controls/gen_set_as700.htm
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Jtodd,
Regarding the problems with starter motor rotation and mounting:
What about mounting the flexplate on the generator pulley and then laying the starter in next to the generator? It shouldn't hurt any to have the extra flywheel mass on the generator shaft and it would save you the extra complication of the second belt as well as the bearings and shaft that carry the flexplate. I can't tell from the pictures if your generator frame is smaller than the flexplate. That would be critical to making this arrangement work, of course.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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Jtodd,
Regarding the problems with starter motor rotation and mounting:
What about mounting the flexplate on the generator pulley and then laying the starter in next to the generator? It shouldn't hurt any to have the extra flywheel mass on the generator shaft and it would save you the extra complication of the second belt as well as the bearings and shaft that carry the flexplate. I can't tell from the pictures if your generator frame is smaller than the flexplate. That would be critical to making this arrangement work, of course.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
adhall:
There are two reasons I chose not to use that design:
1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank. My chassis is exactly as wide (plus about 8cm) as the crankshaft (it's enclosed, and has to meet some space requirements I won't go into here.)
2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines. I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.
buffdownunder:
I'm assuming when you say "charger" you mean a rectifier that converts AC voltage at xxxVAC/xxHZ to 12VDC? I wanted to have my DC "operational power" be separate from my generated power. Again, I have no idea if I'm going to be swapping the generator head in and out - I might want to run 3-phase, or a water pump, or a hydraulic pump. Therefore, I've put the DC power generation on a separate belt than the main driven load so I'm not held hostage to always running an AC genset. This is probably a bit of overkill, but that's my weakness. Plus, it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.
JT
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adhall:
There are two reasons I chose not to use that design:
1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank. My chassis is exactly as wide (plus about 8cm) as the crankshaft (it's enclosed, and has to meet some space requirements I won't go into here.)
2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines. I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.
a bit of overkill, but that's my weakness. Plus, it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.
JT
I guess we know who is opening a branch to the global L.I.T campus soon!
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I understand JT. If you want to switch engines it makes sense. One question: Why do you want to switch engines? Isn't the lister so great because you will never need to move it?
Edward
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JT:
It appears that I did not communicate clearly what I had in mind. Please pardon my persistance as I attempt to clarify:
1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank..
What I was suggesting was to mount the flexplate on the generator pulley, not the crankshaft. If the flexplate is large enough, you could mount the starter inboard along side the generator rather than outboard. You might have to turn your generator around to get the rotation right for starting.
2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines. I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.
If you can do what I suggest above, you could mount the starter off the same base as the generator (so the center distance between the starter pinion and the flexplate stay constant as you move the generator). That should make changing the engine easy as you wouldn't have to worry about the starter at all.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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buffdownunder:
I like to experiment. 12/2, 28/2, 6/1, etc. - what are the fuel consumption values, vibration, heat, and other factors - I'd like to perform trials with various versions of the "large" components (engine and driven load) and switching them easily seems like a reasonable thing to me. Also, I don't know what my KWh loading will be throughout time (talking years here) - I probably will become more or less efficient as time goes on, so putting in a larger or smaller engine with the same starting/cooling/control rig is a desirable goal to me, and I'd like to pay for this work (hours and $) only once when I can do it all at the same time. I don't expect that other people have quite the same goals, so what I'm doing and how I'm doing it are not optimal for more simple or inexpensive configurations that would be typical.
adhall:
I had seriously considered flexplate attachment to the genset pulley, and even mocked it up. However, there were two problems with it: the first was that I could not switch out to a hydraulic or water pump quickly, and the other problem is... er... I forget what the other problem was. I know there were two reasons I didn't do it that way, though you are correct it probably is a more simple method of attachment. I'm not sure if it was a tactical or strategic issue. I believe the flexplate was larger than the flywheel/pulley, so that part presented no problem and would have worked. I think that there were a few minor issues with mounting, but they were not overwhelming (not enough room on my ST-10 input shaft to take a second SK-style bushing, therefore requring direct mounting of flex plate to the pulley, which would require journaling of the pulley, which was too big a job for any lathe I have access to, but that is a fairly minor issue that could be solved with a few $ and a better machine shop.) Hmm... I'll look again this weekend when I'm back working on the project and see if I remember what it was that made me choose to use the other flywheel and a different belt - I don't think it was as simple as the journaling issue, but maybe...
Now, that being said, I've yet to really try out this whole rig in earnest and see where it breaks down. If the starter assembly just doesn't cut it after some abuse, I probably will go to a setup where the flexplate is attached to the generator pulley.
Lastly: GM starters are available in clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation, so instead of moving the generator around it's easier to just get a starter with the right rotation. Apparently some marine engines spin the other direction from normal engines, so the CCW stuff is typically found at marine supply shops. I found my starter at SEA Manufacturing in Florida (http://stores.ebay.com/SEA-MANUFACTURING-CO +1-386-668-1425) and they were quite cooperative and helpful.
JT
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JT:
Thanks for sharing your insights into this. I have been wondering for a long time whether it was feasible to mount a starter and flexplate on the generator head. Unfortunately, I don't have an ST head on hand (yet) to test the concept. I look forward to learning what you find out.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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. . . it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.
How do you think an alternator works? It generates 3-phase AC (via a rotating field, in automotive alternators) and runs the output of the delta (or wye) stator windings through six diodes (rectifiers).
I don't know as this is more or less efficient that running a battery charger from the main generator's output.
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The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.
I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.
Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?
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The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.
I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.
Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?
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The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.
I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.
Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?
Not a dumb idea. I already tried it, though. I got the flywheel to spin up (took about 5 seconds to reach max speed) but when I released the exhaust valve hold to the "start" position, the compression in the cylinder bounced the flywheels back, so I didn't get a compression cycle to complete. The little motor just wasn't powerful enough, and my requirements are even more serious - I didn't want to have to build a compression release mechanism, so whatever system I used would have to work with the valves closed. (The current, more complex starter system in my pictures does spin the whole engine with the valves closed.)
That being said, I had a fairly small pulley on the starter/generator, so maybe a bigger pulley would have done better by allowing the flywheels to get up to a faster speed before I released the valve. In other words, my test used the strength of the motor to a large degree to cause the compression cycle, because the small pulley didn't allow the flywheels to rotate very quickly even at max speed of the S/G. Perhaps letting momentum build up in the flywheels would have had more success - use a "weaker" pulley configuration that allowed for a faster spin, and let it run for 15-20 seconds to build up some rotational energy before attempting a compression valve release and hopefully starting the engine. I'm not convinced that a larger pulley would have worked, though - the S/G was wheezing pretty hard to get the flywheels turning even with the small pulley, but I'm not an electric engine expert. The S/G that I used for my test was from a golf cart, and was a "14 amp" model - no word on what the HP was coming out of the shaft in starter mode, and nobody seemed to have specs on that. I looked at a LOT of starter-generators, and they all seem to be very poorly documented.
More experiments are in order, I think - I certainly wasn't exhaustive in my tests, because I only had one pulley for the S/G unit. I still think that a combined starter/generator would be ideal for most rigs for charging a small 12v system and providing the ability to have some back-saving effort reduction during starting. However, I think I've found my solution so it's up to someone else to test those theories...
adhall:
Re: my comments on Jan 10: I looked at the generator again, and I recall now the second reason that I didn't mount the flex plate directly on the ST generator pulley. It won't fit. The pulley and/or flex plate is significantly smaller than the diameter of the generator housing, so mounting a starter pointed inboard would not work - the flex plate would be a smaller diameter than the face of the generator, therefore the starter could not mount in that dimension. I could turn the starter around so it hung out away (in opposition to) the generator, but then it would be hanging out past the edge of my chassis and would then have to spin counterclockwise. This might still work OK for others, but for my particular situation it was not optimal.
JT
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JT:
Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't tell how big the end bell on the ST head was from the dimensions I had available.
Just for my information, what wattage ST Head are you working with?
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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JT:
Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't tell how big the end bell on the ST head was from the dimensions I had available.
Just for my information, what wattage ST Head are you working with?
Best regards,
Andy Hall
I'm using an ST-10 head, so 10 kilowatts maximum output theoretically.
In case this question is in reference to my comments on flexplate and starter mounting: I'm not sure if the numeric suffix on the generator head is going to make a lot of difference, even with a smaller head. The ST-5 versus the ST-10 doesn't seem to be dramatically smaller, according to the L2 column on the last page of the dimensional specs here:
http://www.utterpower.com/ST_manual.pdf
JT
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JT:
Thanks for the link.
I had already looked at the ST manual and could not come up with an exact value for the diameter of the end bell. The closest dimensions I could find (in the table on last page) are "H" which should be a little more than the end bell radius and "L2" which appears to be slightly more than the end bell diameter. I was hoping that the actual diameter might be somewhat smaller, but clearly no such luck.
For my own genset project, I would still like to try to drive the generator pulley with the starter motor. In fact, I am considering attaching a flywheel to the generator pulley instead of a flexplate so as to further stabilize the rotating speed of the generator. So one option here is to find something with a bigger starter ring.
According to a web site I found, the starter ring on the old Ford 300 CI 6 cylinder truck engine is roughly 15-1/2" on the OD. That looks like it might be big enough for the 5 kW ST head I am thinking of using. Of course, that all depends on the diameter of the corresponding Ford starter motor.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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Appreciate the info on the motor-gen. The small pulley gave you more torque but not enough rpm/momentum.
Did you try increasing the voltage momentarily? It would heat the thing up but may work for short intervals. Two small 12V batteries with a series start-circuit and a parallel charge-circuit. Wonder how long it would stand a shot of 24volts.....
If I ever try it I will post. Thanks JT.
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For whatever it's worth, here's the more-or-less complete starter/generator assembly that will start the engine and also will generate 12vdc for the control systems. The alternator functions as a belt tightening system, using the turnbuckle shown, so I don't have to adjust belt tension by moving components around on milled slots or any of the normal tensioning methods. As of yet, I haven't tried this under load, so I don't know if it actually works at 650RPM, but in theory it sounds good. :-) If not, I'll just try something else. My only worries are that there won't be enough grip on the flexplate-mounted pulley to spin the engine, but I've tried it and it does seem to spin it (with a tiny bit of slippage) even with both compression releases on my 12/2 de-activated (meaning: full compression.) We'll know in another month or two when I'm done with secondary systems and try to fire it up on the new base.
Also visible is the fuel rack shutoff solenoid that should be able to close the rack. I'll need a bigger spring, but it has plenty of arm length and almost enough "ooomph" even with the engine not running. As soon as I lose 12v on the solenoid, the electromagnet at the bottom of the solenoid goes dead, the spring-loaded arm is released, and pushes up against the rack. I'll post part numbers and whatnot when I'm done with the assembly, but if anyone wants 'em I can give specifics on the solenoid and electrical control system.
http://www.loligo.com/listeroid/pictures/3.html
JT
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Jt
Thanks for posting your pictures. Very Nice Work!
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FWIW, here's a picture of a 3-1 with an automotive starter motor hooked up to a magnetic clutch (from an automotive AC unit, I think)
http://www.thebarrier.net/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=5&pos=1
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Electric Starter-
I am currently building mine for my 20/2 engine and I used a chevy flywheel and a starter to match it (Goes to a 350 Small block) I am having the flywheel mounted with the sk bushing so it fits on the crank shaft and the stock starter uses 12v. The flywheel and starter and bushing were 85.00.
The machineing of the collar to hold the flywheel to the sk bushing will be 75.00. I used 3/8 plate steel for my mounting brackets & 7/16 grade 5 bolts, 30.00. So for about 200.00 I get to start my engine without cranking it.... YES...Worth Every Penny. Ok , I now need to put in the alternator, that is another 38. + belt and battery = about 125.00 . Not bad for about 350.00. I'll post pic's soon.
Rob
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FWIW, here's a picture of a 3-1 with an automotive starter motor hooked up to a magnetic clutch (from an automotive AC unit, I think)
http://www.thebarrier.net/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=5&pos=1
That's pretty interesting. I'm wondering if there's enough strength in that system to start a 16/2. I don't know anything about A/C clutches but I know that a starter puts out a lot of torque. Also, are A/C clutches a reasonable thing to have running "24/7"? Right now, I've got the starter/flywheel combination mounted on a bearing-supported shaft, which seems to be fairly reasonable to assume is good for 100% duty cycle. However, the simplicity of the A/C clutch setup is interesting. Does it easily turn over the 3/1? Has anyone else here on the boards seen it turning something bigger?
JT
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yes i have seen one on a 6/1 and it does very well
the a/c clutches can handle ~75ft/lbs which is more than adequate
the brg in the clutch is serviceable and usually of high quality, i would expect it to last as long as
a good st head brg
bob g
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yes i have seen one on a 6/1 and it does very well
the a/c clutches can handle ~75ft/lbs which is more than adequate
the brg in the clutch is serviceable and usually of high quality, i would expect it to last as long as
a good st head brg
bob g
Interesting! Let me further qualify the question:
- I don't know how much (or I forget...) is required to get something like a 16/2 cranking in "free-spin" mode...
- My real question hinges on: how about with the exhaust valves closed?
My current setup with a belt-driven flex plate and starter will crank the 16/2 with the valves closed, but only barely, and that's because the belt is on the edge of slipping on the flexplate pulley. The goal is to get the engine cranking without "manual" intervention (i.e.: She Who Needs The Oven To Work should be able to get it started without doing more than following some written instructions and pushing some buttons. She's good with procedures and determining if something is not going according to plans, but she's not so thrilled about sticking her hands inside the spinning flywheel zone, nor am I interested in building another set of actuators to run the exhaust valves.)
JT
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I was looking around on ebay today, I see a few Kubota 30hp diesel starters for
about $125 new. Might be a good deal if you are going to fabricate a starter setup.
No financial interest, yada yada.
Rick
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When I get a few more hours under my belt, I'm going to start giving serious thought regarding an autostart control system. The system would also included transducer inputs for auto-shutdown, to protect against overtemp, overspeed, and low oil, and due to my circumstances, change between fuel type used. The auto-start fuction would comprise of an interface between the xantrex inverter generator control functionality and the genset, allowing startup and shutdown based on inverter charger settings. Another feature I may add, is timed load control. In my case, it would be used for turning on a pool pump in summer, or an electric heater element in winter, all in an effort to keep the genset loaded during charger tapers. I know that this would be a significant departure from the KISS point of view, but my hope would be to implement this without mocking up the inherent mechanical simplicity of the engine. My goal is to develop a system that could be allowed to perform much of its tasks automatically, while recognizing the system would still require monitoring/supervision.
This particular subject is of interest to me, because the first building block is a solid electric start system.
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FYI, I've completed a nice circuit board design which does the following:
Sound pre-start alert buzzer
Energize external power
Crank engine until pre-programed startup RPM reached or timeout (based on RPM pickup sensor on crank)
Allow engine to warm up for configurable time
Energize contact to switch over load
Monitor 16 different dry contact inputs for fault (ie: oil pres, over temps, etc)
Monitor for over-speed RPM condition
Energize shutdown contact on any fault and store "first out" failure condition for future review
Also has external "start" inputs to sense external line power fail, push button, etc
Circuit boards and programming are now complete to production quality and all firmware has been full tested. Recently added scheduled test run starts and calendar features as well as remote telemetry comm port using MODBUS protocol. Have tested extensivly on various typical engines - Honda, Kohler, and the like and have installed a few units to run oilfield compressor and pumpjacks with good success. Boards have *extensive* circuit protection and should be absolutely bullet-proof (that's what I do for a living).
I'm working on selecting all the various goodies to impliment a full-blown auto-control system on a Roid at this time. Be patient and as soon as I have a "package of goodies" all worked out and prices, I'll make the whole rig available to anyone who's interested. Just want to make sure it's all perfectly working before I turn it loose.
cheers,
Chris
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Sounds brilliant Chris!
Looking forward to seeing some pics of the finished product.
RC
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Best way to Autostart a CS6/1 is to teach the wife how to start it :D
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Chris;
You can put me down for at least one of those - I always get people asking how to autostart engines and need a good basic but bulletproof design. It's way out of my league though!
t19 - Hmm, guess I'll have to ask your wife about that comment!!!!!
John F.
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Chris;
You can put me down for at least one of those - I always get people asking how to autostart engines and need a good basic but bulletproof design. It's way out of my league though!
t19 - Hmm, guess I'll have to ask your wife about that comment!!!!!
John F.
I'm really interested in the board cschuerm says he's making; custom configuration is always better. However, you should take a peek at the Crompton computer I mention (and link to) much earlier in this thread. It does most of what you'd probably want, though of course you'd still need to build the nuts-and-bolts parts that run the starter, the auto-shutoff, the thermostat housings, the RPM sensors, ammeters, etc. etc.
JT
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been working on something similar for a c201 until the day before yesterday
i answered an add on craigslist for a couple of genset panels
they looked to have the needed guages, (hr meter, volt, amp, hz, dc, water temp, oil pressure etc)
i made an offer for 25 bucks each for 2 of the 4,
i got there and bought all four for the money
not only was it the panel, but the complete box
with auto start, electronic govenor control all adjustable and built for the us navy to military spec's
all panels had 21 to 27 hours on them
he had one of the gensets left but they are a bit large for an offgrid home at 275kwatt!
i contacted the manufacture today of the unit with the s/n of the last genset and they are going to send
the complete schematics for the systems.
so for 25 bucks each i get military standard, auto start, electronic govenor control and engine management
all in a weather tight enclosure, complete with the weather tight cable entrance connectors.
one of the coolest scores i have got in a long time.
there is alot of interesting stuff available if one takes the time to look
bob g
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JT: Yes, it spins up the 3/1 nicely. The owner uses it to charge up a 90+ year old set of NiFe cells. Since he has no solar panels and there is no grid power here on the Barrier, it gets a LOT of use.
I've heard of a guy on the mainland selling similar setups for Listeriods (6/1s), but have not seen one.
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I've been reading this thread for a while but can't see the answer to my main question: Can anyone tell me if a gear reduction starter (chev) will turn a 12/2 with the valves closed, if a flex plate is mounted on the crank? If not, will it do it with the flex plate on the generator pulley?
Would be nice to know before I start cutting metal! :)
cheers,
Brian
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I've been reading this thread for a while but can't see the answer to my main question: Can anyone tell me if a gear reduction starter (chev) will turn a 12/2 with the valves closed, if a flex plate is mounted on the crank? If not, will it do it with the flex plate on the generator pulley?
Would be nice to know before I start cutting metal! :)
cheers,
Brian
Brian,
I can't say for sure but I am running a 434 cubic inch chevy V8 ( 587 RWHP) with 11.5:1 compression and my gear reduction starter motor has no problem spinning the engine.
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Best way to Autostart a CS6/1 is to teach the wife how to start it :D
My x wife once gave me the choice of her or the boat. Since she wouldn't pull the anchor, scrub bilges, mow the grass or paint the house, the choice was pretty easy.
Now the dog keeps my feet warm in the winter and the kid down the street mows the lawn to get to drive the tractor. The last time he mowed, I told him if he started to trim too I would let help set up the lister when it gets here. It won't be long till auto start is only a phone call away.
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Snail/Brian:
I used to race a BA/FC. That is a supercharged alcohol burning "funny car" in UDRA sanctioned drag racing. 572 cubic inch Chrysler Hemi v8 at 15/1 compression, with an 8-71 GMC style blower. One of the rules in that class was there must be an on-board starter. I used a stock, off the shelf, starter from Summit (Racing or Auto Parts, not sure which, but on the web) intended for a 440 Plymouth. Cranked that hummer right up to 25, 30 RPM no sweat against 32 degrees of magneto advance. Worked great.
Best of luck, Wayne.
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My last batch of engines came with the starter, ring gear, alternator, radiator, fan, and water pump factory installed. This makes an engine much easier to "autostart" using a simple "brick" plc.
There are also electronic governors on Ebay made by Barber-Coleman that hold frequency within .25 of 1%. Barber -Coleman's governors have been bought out by Woodward Governor. I got mine for $200 complete with throttle actuator, control box, and magnetic pickup and am installing it on the 20/1 that will be pulling a 20 kw 3 phase ST head to run my shop, with 2 cnc lathes, a 20 x 100 engine lathe, 2 milling machines, a Miller 300 amp welder, 2 bandsaws, a 18" x 36" Gould & Eberhardt gear hobber, and assorted other machine tools.
This governor/actuator setup is like a modern version of the actuators used on the original Lister SOM generator sets.
Mike
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Earlier in this thread ,I asked if a Chev starter would spin a 12/2 under compression. The answers were generally positive, so I tried it. The answer is now definitely yes!
I mounted a 13"(?) flex plate from a 308 Holden (an Aussie- made Chev) on the crank, and used its matching gear reduction starter (which has 1.4 kW written on the side). The result is that it starts on the first compression stroke, even if the motor is stopped between the two "close" compressions (it's a 180 degree twin remember).
One problem was that being such a small diameter, the flex plate didn't allow for the starter to sit inboard of the flywheel. The other problem was that due to the engine mounting method, rigging up a sufficiently rigid outboard starter mounting looked a bit daunting. The result was a starter mounted directly to the crank by means of a 2" ID x 4" OD ball bearing. A piece of RHS bolted to the bearing housing carries the starter motor, and its outer end is supported to take the torque when the power is applied.Not the most elegant of solutions, but it sure works ;D
Cheers,
Brian
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Earlier in this thread ,I asked if a Chev starter would spin a 12/2 under compression. The answers were generally positive, so I tried it. The answer is now definitely yes!
I mounted a 13"(?) flex plate from a 308 Holden (an Aussie- made Chev) on the crank, and used its matching gear reduction starter (which has 1.4 kW written on the side). The result is that it starts on the first compression stroke, even if the motor is stopped between the two "close" compressions (it's a 180 degree twin remember).
One problem was that being such a small diameter, the flex plate didn't allow for the starter to sit inboard of the flywheel. The other problem was that due to the engine mounting method, rigging up a sufficiently rigid outboard starter mounting looked a bit daunting. The result was a starter mounted directly to the crank by means of a 2" ID x 4" OD ball bearing. A piece of RHS bolted to the bearing housing carries the starter motor, and its outer end is supported to take the torque when the power is applied.Not the most elegant of solutions, but it sure works ;D
Cheers,
Brian
I'd love to see some pictures.
I've found that my own rig of a flexplate and a Chevy starter mounted on a belt worked quite well, and the engine fires right up. The problem is that this arrangement really sounds (and is!) dangerous - it's like a circular saw, and it's outer edge is 3 feet away from the flywheel which adds to the general "danger zone distance" of the whole rig. I'm also not 100% sure of how well the bearings will hold up on extended runs. So I'm trying to find a realy big ring gear/flexplate that I can mount inboard, on the inside hub of the flywheel between the engine and the flywheel. I'll then fabricate a mount that holds a standard starter (whatever kind is needed) right in front of the crank access panel.
The trick is that this probably will need to be a custom-cut ring gear, offset mounted onto a thin plate. There is limited space between what will be the plane of the gear face and the camshaft housing - getting the measurements right will be a trick.
Anyone know how big starter flexplates can get? What are the biggest truck flexplates available?
Before anyone says "This is easy to solve by putting it on the outside of the flywheel", yes, I know. I have space constraints due to the frame the engine is mounted in, so it has to be inboard.
JT