Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: listerengine2006 on November 21, 2006, 03:38:20 AM

Title: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: listerengine2006 on November 21, 2006, 03:38:20 AM
Hi All,
A brief into...
Living in Ontario Canada, in an old farm house, and currently planning our retirement home on our 33 acre site. The plan is, to first get a listeroid running here at home, to get some experience operating one of these machines. The retirement home will be off the grid, and the listeroid engine offers so much toward achieving the dream of quiet reliable power.

I wanted to share my story because I bet a lot of DIY'ers would kill for a chance to start from scratch, doing the design and building the home with self sufficiency as a key part of the design goals. I also thought if I was willing to share the project with others, it may inspire someone to give it a try also.  Of course, the real motive is to get free advise from real DIY'ers, who actually know what the heck they are doing.  As you may have guessed, I am not a diesel mechanic, I don't own a welder, or an engine hoist, but I do have some electrical background in my past. The success of the project will depend on me, and the help of the kind old timers, who enjoy sharing their knowledge with others, for the betterment of their fellow human beings. 

Scheduled pickup of a listeroid 6/1 is April, 2007. (The taxman is funding this purchase.) Lots to do before I'm ready to bring'er home, and being green as the paint on a lister, I hoped my story will inspire other wanna be DIY'ers, so here's how it begins.....

Stopped by the scrap metal yard today on my way home, and met Bruno, the owner, I would guess he's about 60.  I wanted to see about getting a couple of "I" beams to mount my listeroid on.  Bruno says "what you wanna this stuff for anyway?  I explained, I intend to mount a 700lb engine on it, and Bruno says, "what kinda engine isa dis?"  I tried to explain, but he just scratched his head and walked out the back of the office, into the scrap yard, so I followed. I was coming straight from work, still wearing my office worker attire, he must have thought he's got a real winner here. 

As we walked, its mud everywhere, scrap iron in mountains all around, and a giant electromagnetic crawler crane in the middle of it all.  Bruno sends me to talk to the guy standing next to the crane.  Bruno says, "You go anda see Steve, he willa take care of you.  Justa tell him whata you want".  So, off I go, following the tire tracks of the loader that just went by, creating a soupy path for me to follow. 

As I get closer, I see a big man with a smile the size of a barn door. (Probably trying to hold back the laughter at the guy in the dress shoes.)  "Yes sir, how can I help you", Steve says. So I explain, I'm looking for a couple of pieces of "I" beam, to mount an engine on. He points to a pile of assorted "I" beams, some up to 16' long.  "How about this", he says, as he points to one of the beams in the pile.  I nod, Steve climbs up to the cab of the crane, and then the crane springs to life, as I run for mine.  The crane is grinding, squeaking and roaring as Steve crawls up to the pile of "I" beams and reaches out with the clawed magnet on the end of the boom.  Bang, as a beam comes in contact with the surface of the magnet. It was like watching some metallic monster snacking on hunks of metal.  He swings one of the beams out of the pile and lowers it to the ground, where Bruno is waiting.  Bruno says "you wanta 2 pieces, 6', yes?". I nod again.  Out of his pocket he pulls a tape measure and a sparker. Hanging on the shed wall behind him is a long pair of hoses with a cutting torch on the end.  Bruno grabs the torch, snaps the sparker a couple of times, and a bright flame flairs from the torch. I can tell the torch is in the hands of a master.  In a few minutes, he cut off 2 pieces, 6' long, and waved for the loader to come.  The operator picked up the 2 pieces and motioned for me to put my truck on the scale.  I jogged back to the truck, being careful where I step, and moved the truck onto the scale. 

I can see a women in the office motion that she has it, and the loader operator lowers the beams to the height of the tailgate, he jumps down from the loader and slides the pieces into my truck like he had done this before.  The woman in the office waves me off the scale, and I go inside to pay.  So far, I am not to sure what this is going to cost me, but in my mind I'm thinking, it can't cost that much more than a couple of pressure treated 8" X 8"s, can it?. 

Bruno is back in the office, looks at the number on the scale, turns to me and says, "that’sa 400 lbs."  Then he says, "25 cents a pound, how'sa that sound?"  "Sold" I said, and I put my credit card on the counter.  You would think I pulled a gun by the looks I got.  The woman in the office says to me, "I'm sorry, we only accept cash".  So, now I'm 20 minutes away from the nearest bank machine, but the "I" beams are already loaded on the truck.  Bruno lets me leave with the stuff loaded on the truck, and I was back in 40 minutes, with $100 cash.  When I go in to pay Bruno, he smiles and hands me back a $20. "Thatsa Ok" he grins.  I thanked him, and told him I would be back again.
 
Lessons learned.......
Never try to pay for goods at a scrap metal yard with a credit card. Always bring cash.
Also, If you go in dress shoes, you get a lot of smiles from the staff.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-463
What's next, hummm, how am I going to get these things off the truck? 
Mark
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: rmchambers on November 21, 2006, 01:22:24 PM
Bruno sounds like a salt of the earth type.  My wife's side of the family are Italian, masons, contractors etc and they appreciate hard work and following through on what you say you're gonna do (honesty).

Sounds to me like you've got a good guy there who you've already started to gain trust from.  Hopefully you can send some more business his way, he may have some serviceable tanks, heating coils or copper tubing scrap that you can fashion some heat exchangers from to allow your Listeroid to help heat the new home.

You're in a pretty enviable position starting from scratch.  I've only been on this group for a couple of months but the caliber of talent that freely contributes to these forums is second to none.

I'd be interested to hear how your project goes.

Robert
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: biobill on November 21, 2006, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: listerengine2006

What's next, hummm, how am I going to get these things off the truck?

  Did you ever see an inertia bullet puller?  Just back up quickly and slam on the brakes ;D

                               Best of luck, will be following your progress,  Bill
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: xyzer on November 21, 2006, 02:49:45 PM
What's next, hummm, how am I going to get these things off the truck? 
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=0
Use them as practice for unloading your new 6/1.....Nice I beams! 
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: hotater on November 21, 2006, 03:29:11 PM
Besides the obvious error about the 'tax man funding' (It's YOUR money!) I can see the beginning of a great relationship.

BTW--- the reason you won't find a credit card machine in a scrap yard is that same tax man!!

Spend that $20 change on  George's CD and about 90% of your questions will be answered....but another whole bunch of questions will take their place.  We're ALL trying to answer that second set of questions that comes with additional knowledge.

In designing a place from scratch just remember the natual laws of nature and try to work WITH them and not against them.
  Water will naturally flow downhill.  Hot air and water naturally rises.  Things go wrong at the worst of times.
Title: dup post, sorry
Post by: twombo on November 21, 2006, 04:14:03 PM
I hate fat fingers!

Grrrrr!
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: twombo on November 21, 2006, 04:17:01 PM
Quote
In designing a place from scratch just remember the natual laws of nature and try to work WITH them and not against them. Water will naturally flow downhill.  Hot air and water naturally rises.  Things go wrong at the worst of times.

And Murphy was an optimist!!

(Sorry Jack, couldn't help myself!)

Mike
Title: Attaching those I beams together? Crazy glue maybe?
Post by: listerengine2006 on November 22, 2006, 01:41:57 AM
Ok, that wasn't so bad.  On the ground with my new I beams, totalling 400lbs. I am picturing a listeroid standing on  top, chugging away.  I can picture a lot of it in my head, but some basics are causing some degree of concern.  George's CD is ordered, but I have no idea when it will arrive.

Being the size that these beams are, how do I tie these beams together?  Go ahead and laugh, but I am somewhat challenged when it comes to working with metal.  Is it time to go out and get an arc welder, torches, band saw, all of the above? That might be nice, but I'm sure you have guessed by now, that money isn't piled up all around, just waiting for something to spend it on.

This project is turning out to be a great way to obtain new tools from the boss.  Except she would rather we not clean out the savings account for the sake of the project.  ( she's a bit funny that way, go figure.)

So if you were me, and you had to go out and get 1 tool per month, where would you start?  Grinder, maybe, or how about a couple of smaller tools, like some good metal files, or a big ass drill and some decent bits.  I've got a hack saw, sawsall,  a heavy steel bench, and a vice, a ton of determination, but I really don't have all that much time to get ready before I pickup the 6/1 in April.  I expect alot of the work will have to be done the old fashioned way.  Using basic tools.  I've always wanted to learn to work with metal, now is my chance.  I do own an oxygen / acetylene torch that belonged to my dad, but I'm a bit hesitant to F with it.  Its been sitting for four years, and I have never used a torch before.  "A before O, or up you go" my dad used to say...

Anyone with welding experience care to share some welding tips?   Maybe I should find a pro, and get it done for a fee?
Thanks for all the encouraging words, I know I'm going to get this thing to work, its just a matter of listening to those with experience, and trusting in the wisdom of those who have some hours under their belt.

Mark
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: Doug on November 22, 2006, 02:02:23 AM
You've got guts, I'll grant you that....

If your a novice pay some fellow who is a pro to weld for you. I weld but my welds, but I don't trust my welds so guess what I'll pay for piece of mind.

Buying a tool you only use once isn't cost effective, buying a service that lasts you years is a wise investment.

Last bit of advice:

"When your favourite tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail"

This is trap I often fall into because I expect I can solve most problems with my own ideas and skill. Its a very good thing to get outsiders and specialists like welders to give you input on a job in the planning stage before you commit your self to something that you might be unhappy about later.

Doug
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: mobile_bob on November 22, 2006, 02:22:44 AM
just remember that steel in one way is more forgiving than wood, that is if you cut it off too short you can always weld it back on..

i still havent figured out the heat setting for a 1/4"  oak dowel rod  :)

bob g
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: hotater on November 22, 2006, 03:12:14 AM
LE'06--

 Add and subtract and move is what you want to do.  Haunt pawn shops and used tool places, fleamarkets and ebay (but watch out for shipping.)  You'll want a couple pry bars, a come-a-long or three, start gathering scrap iron of all shapes and sizes...ONE of these days you WILL have a welder....

A drill press, a cutting torch with a few tips and an angle grinder will build about anything, but an arc welder makes it SO much easier and faster and cooler and stronger.

Check for VoTech schools that have classes in the evening.   You *can* learn by book or internet, but its' about ten times better to have somebody looking over your shoulder.

I have an old friend that was 30 years old and didn't understand pliers...he thanks me every time I talk to him for showing him *tools* and how to use them.
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: sid on November 22, 2006, 04:13:54 AM
listerengine2006....been there/ as you will will find out/ the wife will never understand the beauty of an arc welder or the fine crafted hand tool/or how useful an ole hammer can be..buy quality tools and and the most important part// take care of them/ do not but junk unless it is too use once and throw away//buy tools as you need them. just one or two at a time and at the end of a few years you will have a enough to do most repairs/but the best advice is to find an older mentor/ who will be glad to have some one to pass on his knowledge/ my ole friend is 84 and is willing to pass on his experience/ ///sometimes he may have a little remembering but the knowledge is still there/the last engine we pick up was in another state and he had trouble remembering the last time he was in that small little town//he was sure it was 1938 but finally decided it was 1939///sid
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: aqmxv on November 22, 2006, 04:44:26 AM
Sid nailed another great truth.  If you think you'll use a tool more than once, buy a good one.

Where to get good ones?

Well, my favorite place to find good tools shockingly cheap is at estate sales / auctions.  I'm in the rust belt here.  A lot of 40-60 year old houses are being broken up by the kids.  You can pick up tools made in the USA for one or two dollars that are better than what you can buy new most places for ten times that.  The bad news is that "boxes full of tools" are usually grabbed by family members.  So what you look for is the cigar box in the garage with a nice set of hand wrenches used for oil changes, or the junk drawer screwdrivers.  Sometimes  you luck out and get the welding kit, the plumbing torch, or specialty toos for a song at one of these.  I picked up a 30 foot Roe surveyors tape at one of these for $3.  It is older than I am.  I think it's older than my father is.  Chances are good that my son will inherit it and find it just as useful as I do.

If I owned a car from 1920-1950 I'd be hitting all of these sales in the old parts of town.  I've probably seen enough branded tools to make three Model T toolkits.  They typically go for $1 each.

If you get an auction where someobdy was into heavy metal or a farmer you can get better/more specialized/vastly more expensive stuff.  I was at the estate auction of a farm owned by a man who had run his own oilfield business.  Lots of serious heavy metal gear went for very cheap.  I picked up a steel toolbox full of taps and dies starting at about 1/2" dia and going up through about 2" dia along with a small (two foot) and large (four foot) die handle with a plug-in insert for the taps.  I paid $15 for the lot.  About 50 lbs of tools, any one of which (at about one pound each) would cost more than $50 bought new today.  Dusty and oily, packed with an oily rag.  No rust.

Need it now?  Have to buy new?  Sears is open 9-9 six days and has lifetime warranty on all hand tools.  Yes, snap-on, proto, or whomever is better.  But they aren't open at 5 PM on Sunday.  I have a surprising amount of Sears stuff, some of which has been very abused.  I'm on my second 19" breaker bar.  The first did pretty well until the day I was jumping up and down on the 4 foot cheater pipe undoing rear axle nuts on a VW beetle.  Somewhere north of 400 lb-ft the nut gave way, but afterward the pin was so loose in the breaker bar that it fell out.  Replaced no charge.

Most of my big oddball metric sockets came from sears.  Toyota axle nuts, VW gland nuts, all seem to take exactly one size of socket and not much else will do...

Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: t19 on November 22, 2006, 12:19:02 PM
Welcome to the journey.

I too am a novice with all this heavy metal stuff.... I do computers for a living!!

BTW where in Ontario are you?  There are 4 Listers/Listeroids in th Ottawa area.

I bought a SOM with a baseplate to avoid the welding ;)

Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: biobill on November 22, 2006, 02:57:28 PM
 How about an engine/storage shed on the new site while you're waiting on your engines arrival. Don't know if the site work is feasible up there this time of year but if not, you could pre fab it where you're it and assemble it when the weather breaks. Having dry storage and POWER when you are building is great.  It would be nice to have the time to plan it out well too, instead of being in a rush to throw something up. Don't know how far you live from your new site but not having to haul tools back and forth saves a lot of time. I stayed in a tent when I was building my house 'cause the three hrs. it took to pack everything up and drive back and forth to where I was living could be put to much more productive use
  Personally, I would rather have the engine sitting next to me when I built the frame. Check and double check and all that.

                                                              Bill
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: mobile_bob on November 22, 2006, 05:44:33 PM
Jack's comment on not working against momma nature but with her is spot on.

it can be bloody expensive and down right miserable over the long run should you decide to site you house without regard to nature.

and probably the difference in being able to attain any real level of self sufficiency.

bob g
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: hoffman on November 22, 2006, 07:54:53 PM
If you don't have a welder you'll wonder how you made it so far without one once you start sticking metal together!   A small MIG isn't that expensive and is really easy to run. You may want to look into it.  Just be careful or you may end up like me with a MIG, TIG, plasma cutter etc...
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: Jim Mc on November 22, 2006, 10:13:14 PM
...and the listeroid engine offers so much toward achieving the dream of quiet reliable power....



Quiet?  Well, yes a Listeroid can be made quiet.  Mount it solidly, put it away from living quarters, and fit it with a decent muffler.  Not too bad.

Warning, unpopular outlook to follow...

But reliable?  That may be a dream.  Do a little searching on this site.  Be objective.  Compare actual factual statements about reliability to other sources of power. 

Do the math.  How much does it cost to connect to the grid?  How much will it cost to generate your own power?  Consider all costs involved.

Not trying to dissuade you from the 'off grid' ideas, just make sure you truly understand all the costs and tradeoffs...

Having a Listeroid set around for backup power makes perfect sense.  Especially if you enjoy the tinkering bit.  But thinking a Listeroid can't be beat for economic reasons, or represents the epitome of a 'reliable' power source is a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: biobill on November 23, 2006, 02:08:26 AM
  Solar with Lister backup is how God intended it to be.   So sayeth the prophet biobill
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: snail on November 23, 2006, 02:19:13 AM
Quote
Solar with Lister backup is how God intended it to be.   So sayeth the prophet biobill

I'd agree with the prophet. May not be the cheapest,but sure is easy to live with.

We could run into theological problems here. Is the prophet descended from the true messiah of Dursley? :D

Cheers,

Brian
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: listerengine2006 on November 23, 2006, 03:26:34 AM
Quiet?  Well, yes a Listeroid can be made quiet.  Mount it solidly, put it away from living quarters, and fit it with a decent muffler.  Not too bad.
Warning, unpopular outlook to follow...
But reliable?  That may be a dream. 
... thinking a Listeroid can't be beat for economic reasons, or represents the epitome of a 'reliable' power source is a bit of a stretch.

Jim Mc sounds like a man who knows what he is talking about.  Listers may not be for everyone, but my hope is that it is simple enough to repair when things do go wrong.  I have never taken on any project that went completely according to plan.  The keys to my success on projects in the past, have been to be adaptable to the unforseen wrinkles that always happen at the worst times. 

Reduncancy is the only way to mitigate service interruptions.  If you can't afford service interruptions, then plan for outages by having options available when outages occur.  Thats why we have 2 vehicles, because one is going to quit when you need it most.  Often in the winter, the truck will start, but the bosses van can be stubborn.  So I start the truck first, then she tries the van, and we boost it if required. 

Solar, wind, a second lister, battery banks, can all be part of the plan if you are relying on yourself.   What the heck, keep a gas generator around for those times with everything else craps out.  Things are going to break.   As dad used to say, " its not what happens, its how you handle it that matters".

My thinking is, listers may not be the best choice, but if its going to break, get the one thats easiest to fix.  If you can fix one of these engines with basic tools and some baling twine, then this may be the biggest advantage to listers over other prime movers.  If I could use nothing but solar and batteries, then that would be great, but who can afford the solar array big enough to run the compressor?

Another lesson learned.  Stop looking at the lister as a cheap, reliable power.   Start looking at a lister as a maintainable prime mover.
Point taken Jim MC, I still have lots of homework to do.  Fortunately, iI have some time to invest in the planning. 

Mark

Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: Tom on November 23, 2006, 03:59:22 AM
  Solar with Lister backup is how God intended it to be.   So sayeth the prophet biobill

Amen, BB!
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: hotater on November 23, 2006, 04:15:54 AM
At the old 'facility' where I live which is more than $300K from grid power, the place was built for maximum realiabillity and ignored EVERY thing else.  It had to have 24/7 power and a lot of it.

It's much harder to try to compensate for idiotic decisions than to make informed choices to start with.

Onan diesel power for maximum reliability used 2,000 gallons of diesel fuel a month and when one (of a matched pair) broke down or needed service it was a $500 service call, plus parts and time.

Listeroid power takes me an average of 15 hours a month in repairs and maintenence and burns ninety gallons.  Parts are the price of packing peanuts compared to ONAN.

I vote Lister and hydro...the sun don't shine much down in this crack in a giant lava flow.   ;)

LE'06--  I think you've picked the BEST engine to earn your black fingernails with.  It's simple enough even for ME!!!

If you want the best engine at the best price with the most learning potential, get a 'kit'.  Mine will be cranked the first time tomorrow.  They are a HOOT!

 There's a dealer 'near' you.....Canada, anyhow.   :P
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: dieselman on March 01, 2007, 07:54:32 PM
Tools.... one of my favorite subjects! Speaking from experience, don't buy a tool just because you think you MIGHT need it. I have some tools I used only a couple of times and unfortunately a couple that I never used(bought in atticipation of a project that I never did or did something different that did not require the tool). Basic hand tools you will always use, but big ticket items like a welder or a band saw are nice but how much will you use them. Try borrowing or renting a welder if you need one. You will need practice to achieve good results and learning from someone will save you a lot of mistakes....some of wihich could exceed the cost of paying an experienced person to do it for you. Good Luck. I am looking forward to moving to my farm in Texas to do the same thing.

Jim
Title: Re: Starting from scratch. A journey to becoming a gear head.
Post by: wirenutrob on March 04, 2007, 04:12:11 AM
Evening all,

I have been reading this thread for the past few minutes and everything that has been said here is true and has one common thread. Planning!.... Try to plan for every possible different way things can work out. Also keep a journal of your events and plans, you will be happy that you did when you have to go back and revisit an event on a certain day. Get a didital camera and start a photo library of your projects. Down load to a CD or lap top computer for future reference.
Take photos of your engine as you take it apart, this helps too.
Good luck,
Rob