Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: hoffman on November 15, 2006, 09:35:19 PM
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This'll be for back-up power generation and general piddling around ;D
Anyone have any input and reasons. I'm familiar with the AL piston, RPM of each engine, oil pump, fuel consumption, simplicity plus the DI vs IDI etc. Lot's of fun to be had searching this forum!
It would be great to hear from someone who has had direct experience with each.
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Here's everything I can think of. I addressed some things you say you're familiar with on the supposition that too much information is better than too little.
12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.
The 14/1 is sometimes (usually? always?) DI, as opposed to the more common IDI, as you noted.
If you want to burn vegetable or motor oil, the consensus seems to be that IDI is better, though there is anecdotal evidence of the GM-90 series of DI Listeroids doing well on such heavy oils.
You might study the price of two 6/1's in place of a 12/2. When I was doing research it seemed I could get the dual 6/1's for almost the same price, which is a better deal in a couple of ways: you're more likely to have some power, and you have some capacity to run low and high loads by driving a single gen head with one or two engines. There are some gearing and clutching issues to be resolved in this scenario.
You seem to be aware the the 14/1 DI is more economical in terms of fuel. Some object to the differing expansion characteristics of aluminum pistons and iron blocks and the increased need for lubrication on the alloy piston for cooling and I've also heard tell of an enhanced capacity for the alloy piston to seize.
DI is generally louder isn't it?
The 14 typically runs at a higher RPM, and engine wear occurs as the square of RPM. It will also be noisier than a 650 RPM machine. George at utterpower.com opines that the 650 RPM machines have a more relaxing sound than the higher RPM Listeroids, but I wouldn't know as I've never heard the higher RPM ones.
Ashwamegh 12/2's have, or used to have, a proclivity to break idler gears.
12/2's do not always lubricate as well as 6/1's, so you might favor one with an oil pump over the conventional splash lubrication.
Spare part convenience is paramount IMO. The 14/1 has a non-standard bore/stroke, right? Some 12/2 parts are different from 6/1's. The standard IDI 6/1 is going to be the easiest to get parts for.
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I wouldn't argue with a word of what procrustes said.
I'll add/reinforce:
Parts commonality might be a concern with the 14/1
If my listeroid had an aluminum piston, I'd definitely have a sacrificial anti-friction coating on the skirt, and carefully measure piston-bore clearance.
I opted for an IDI 6/1 of pretty much "Indian standard" specification. It has the roller bearings and a splash-only lube system, but is otherwise very close to the Dursley original. If my importer goes under, nearly anybody can get me rocker arms, cylidner heads, bearings, valves, etc, that fit.
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Thanks for the input guys! Budget will be a big consideration and the 14/1 seems to fit the bill. God knows how much it'll cost to get one of these to Ga.
I had given some thought to a 6/1 but I really want a gen that will fire off my central AC should the need arise. I have given some thought to the parts availability of the 6/1's though.
I've also considered a Changfa but they don't have the same appeal as the Listers.
I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...
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I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...
Best leave it at better ;D
Bill
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I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...
Yet another route is to build a generator with an automotive engine. If you have natural gas or a propane tank this could be ideal. With all new or remanufactured parts you can build a 30kW genny for $3,000 or so.
Mine is a slant six running at 1800 RPM for about 65hp, directly coupled to a 30kW ST head. Winco charges $15,000 for something similar, albeit with a much fancier head. This gen is oversized so that I can eliminate my electric subpanel and still not worry about ruining a pump or worrying about when the refrigerator turns on or whatever. It is a lot of work though. Here's a parts list:
Impco CA55-500 mixer (natural gas/LP carb)
Woodward/Dyna PF31 actuator/throttle body
Chrysler 225ci slant six engine
Dyna DPG-2103 (?) governor
Guardian Couplings "FH" style coupling (bolts to flywheel)
I-beams
Cement
Siding to match your house
Radiator, muffler, belts, hoses, etc
I love the Listeroid, but as a practical matter I don't want to store the fuel I've become the widely ridiculed Gentleman Collector. Well, minus the gentleman part that is.
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if you live in ga. you have a dealer close by in n.c.// he should have engines in a few weeks/sid
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Procrustes, shame on you. It's my recollection that the 225/6 had sparkplugs :P
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Procrustes, shame on you. It's my recollection that the 225/6 had sparkplugs :P
I know, I know. A few years back the utility ran gas along my road, not even sure why as the road doesn't lead anywhere and not many folks live out here. But it's hard to go to the trouble of stockpiling diesel when I have an unlimited supply of fuel.
I still use the 6/1 to lure the ladies into my home of course. As has been stated here before, it's a chick magnet.
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12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.
The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.
Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg
Peter
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What part of GA are you from? I have a friend with a 10/1 (i think) near Atlanta. I don't know if he has it set up to run his home but he had the engine running.
Firefly
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I live in atlanta. email me some time and i will pass along some info on engines// sid
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12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.
The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.
Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg
Peter
Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.
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12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.
The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.
Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg
Peter
Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.
For someone like me, brought up on 360 degree crank's on British motorcycles, it was a bit of a culture shock to realise that Lister and others had 180 degree cranks looooooooong before Honda and their Super Dream 250cc bike in the 1960's!
Peter
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Right now I live in Warner Robins but I'm selling my house (And shop :'( ) on the 1st of Dec. I'm moving to Schley County and I'll have more land to build a BIGGER SHOP :D
I'm building a house down there so all my plans/projects are on hold for a while until the house is finished early next year. I have convinced my wife that a stand-by gennie would be a good thing at the new place.
I'm actually planning a generator shed that will also hold the mower/ lawn equipment that always seems to be in the way in the shop.
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We have a 14/1 and at rated speed it sounds very busy and the power impulses are real. At 600-700 RPM it is much more fun to be around, though. There is combustion noise from the DI but that's why I like a diesel! I have thiought about getting another Listeroid for a plaything but am also undecided on single or double cylinder. I would hate to have the gear problems that some have had with the twins. I will attract flames for this opinion, but if you need lots of hard part spares, I believe that you have bought the wrong thing.
George
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hello I am a new guy... just had a 14/1 delivered from colorado to CT at a cost of 479 for shipping. can't wait to start working on her. I will post my progress and data with the 14/1. I am putting together a 12KW gen. I plan to link to an inverter/charger with a battery bank.
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Hello Clickclack,
Did you buy from Eric at RMPS ? If yes, let me know how smooth the engine runs & who is the manufacturer ?
I am thinking of trading my shaking/jumping 10/1 for a 12/1 or 14/1.
Also, how much did you pay for it ?
Thanks , Jeff
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I'd love to hear a review.
George, aren't you using yours to run a compressor on a boat? I think I read something about it while searching.
I was thinking about the AL piston in the 14/2's being considered a liability, but wouldn't it make it smoother running without so much reciprocating weight?
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There is an amount of liability in everything we do; aluminum pistons have been used in diesels for decades with good results and were, infact, used first to help deal with unbalance. The Listeriod exhaust temperatures are so low that it is hard for me to imagine piston damage for heat at any reasonable power level. Scuffing and seizure are common even with cast iron pistons if care isn't taken during running. Lube and break in issues are far more important for long life than materials of construction on a low specific output slow speed engine.
There are always backups in marine service, too, so that if the Listeroid should fail for ANY reason there is another generator and another air compressor. I think AN engine of ANY manufacture is a liability if it is the sole source of power for a life support system, but thankfully most applications are not life support.
In any case, the 14/1 Metro I got from Sam Crosby is not a hopper. When running on a shipping skid in the shop it slowly precessed in a circle, taking about two hours to transit it's course. Once the whole assembly was ready to install I test ran it for a week under load with no precession or hop while resting on four pieces of rubber on the concrete floor.
Standing by, ready for flames and criticism,
George
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to answer dieselhead... Yes the engine was from Eric @ RMPS. It is an Ashwamegh from vijay engineering corp. I paid $1450 if i remember correctly. for an extra 200 Eric will do an pre-run exam of the engine... sump for sand and clearences of valves etc . HE is the guy you should email with questions about sales... very cool with the shipping time and answering questions from the new guy. The engine seems to be built soundly..turns over nice I have not run her yet. very soon... I am waiting on a puley, and I still need a cooling setup. But I have looked her over fairly well and I m pleased with the engine valves needed ajusting and a good cleaning on the inside!!!some paint removed from the outside, all is well Time will tell good luck CCBB