Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: xyzer on October 10, 2006, 06:09:22 AM
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I'm in the process of do a 6/1 power solutions. I am planing on replacing the fuel filter and adding a oil filter. Any suggestions would be appricated. I would like to go with spin on type. Been looking for a compact remote type but getting one to fit where the old fuel filter is tough! Any ideas?
Also has anyone done a 12v starter on the 6/1? need ideas. One I had was use a heavy car flywheel on the ST head pulley to maybe calm some of the pulse. Would it turn the motor fast enough to start it? I figure it would easly get it through compression so it should. Feedback welcome!
Thanks
Dave
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Just about any recent 12v starter has the power to do it. The trick of course is getting that power onto the engine when you need it and keeping the starter disengaged from the engine when you don't.
For me , I'd use a generic reduction drive starter - they've heaps of torque compared to the older types and are very compact. A bosch or nippondenso one would do fine.
If you want to start it without decomp, you'll need a positive coupling and that generally means a ring gear.
Mounting a ring gear on either the flywheel or generator will do the job. Might be tough to find a ring gear that will fit on your ST head with enough clearance around to the ground/etc. I suppose one could take a standard car flywheel and machine the centre to fit to a hub that will go nicely on on the crankshaft behind the engine flywheel. An hour's work for a competant machinist, depending on what kind of flywheel you picked.
I also saw one somewhere where some clever dick mounted the electric clutch section from a A/C compressor on the front of a starter and used that somewhere along the belt drive instead.
Anyway, aim to have the starter drive running at a couple of thousand RPM at a few hundred RPM on the lister. This'll put you within the power and torque capabilites of most small starters.
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Thanks Guy,
What about automotive oil filters? I am looking for a remote mount spin on type. I am having problems finding one theat will use a minium of space...not having much luck. I was thinking of building 2 spin on type but use a smaller automotive type spin on. That is not a problem...my question will a automotive oil filter work OK for fuel? If I can make the the same it will save time and one filter size will help keep it simple.
Dave
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That is not a problem...my question will a automotive oil filter work OK for fuel?
Generally, it should work ok. The smallest micron filter you can get would be good. Really depends on how dirty your fuel is.
Remember that oil is under positive pressure, while generally fuel is gravity fed - this should be balanced to some extent by the fact that diesel is much thinner than oil.... and 6/1's don't really suck down the fuel that much.
But I'd prefer a primary fuel filter up the line somewhere with a water/rock ;) seperator, with a 1 or 2 micron inline filter near the injector pump somewhere. The Lucas/CAV filters with the clear seperator bowl under them are good - you can see if there's crud/water/paint flakes/etc in them.
It's pretty important to have the cleanest fuel possible. The bits in injector pumps aren't really forgiving of dirty fuel. Don't specifically know about the listeroid ones, but you're probably talking about 2 or 3 microns clearance or so maximum.
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Hi Dave,
You might check out what Bruce M did for his starter on the 6/1(in copermine) which was an ingenious air pressure motor with hub against the flywheel to start.
I was entertaining the same type of starter for my 12/2 but the supplier of my engine...John Ferguson (a member here)...came up with a similar design that runs off of 12volt power pack battery...I am pleased with it...I do have picts if you wish to contact me off forum with your e-mail I will send them to you. (never could get through the frustration of trying to post on coppermine).
I also am waiting for a shipment from Mike Montief which will include a Fram type screw on filter for the gas line...to replace the one provided. He bought up a shipment from UPS delivery trucks that were not used...and they are reported to fit our engines very well. I am not too sure if he has any left or not...but you could check with him. Hope this is helpful, binnie
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Newbie here, but what I did with my 24/1 15kw was install a Perma Cool 2 micron filter/water separator (made a wee bracket out of 1/4" plate)...
The starter was a little more complicated, I drilled/tapped the non-pulley side of the ST shaft for 1/2" coarse thread. I put a Grade 9 bolt in there, and spin it up with my 1/2" drill with an impact socket on it. Spinning it like this gives a 2-to-1 advantage (approx), and turns it faster than ya kin by hand... I first tried turning it with a 3/8" drill, and smoked the liddle drill motor... I sit on a shop stool, and brace the 2 handles of the 1/2" drill across my knees, I can easily reach up to release compression lever. If no power to run drill, I have a 12 volt battery with a 800 watt inverter standing by. I think for smaller generators, one could use smaller bolts...
As the engine starts, the bolt backs out - easy-peasy electric start, the El Cheapo way, works every time...
I looked into a portable 12 volt starter from Arrow Engine, it would probably have worked fine, , and not difficult at all to build the required mount into the cradle, but I didn't like the price ($1200).
Cheers,
Richard
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Anyone remember the starter/generators on the Kohler powered Bolens lawn tractors (and probably many others). Thru the early 70's i think. Seems like only yesterday. I believe they would be plenty strong enough if the decomp was used and would also keep the battery charged. Belt driven. I'll give it a try if i ever become too old and feeble to crank ;). In fact, how about a solinoid opperated decomp. for remote starting. hmmmm.... Bill
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I have been contemplating fabricating a rubber wheel to the end of a automotive starter. I would then place it on a hinged lever near the flywheel, arrange a switch and run the starter wheel up against the flywheel to spin it. It's basically a 12 version of a pony starter. My Witte has a pony engine to start it and it works great. The pony engine has the exact starter system I just described that starts it. It works great! Once I get my Lister sorted out Ill work on the starting system.
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Iron works,
That is exactly what I have on my 12/2, a design by John Ferguson...however it has a 3' chrome pipe welded perpendicular to it to apply manual leverage power for the hub against the flywheel and the starter button is on the top end of the pipe, thumb operated....nice, simple, easy to operate with left hand leaving the right hand free to operate the controls on the rack. I hook it up to a 12v power pack. contact me off forum with addy & I'll send you some picts. Never could get coppermine to work...binnie (dunhill at sympatico.ca)
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Hey guys do forget me! I'm leaning toward that method of starting. It seems much simpler than having to mount a ring gear. I was flip floping between mounting a heavy ring gear and flywheel to the gen head to maybe calm some of the voltage pulse. I see the Lister SOM did somthing like that. Now we need to pick a good starter for modification.
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Hey there XYZER!
If you look at the Raycor website you will see what an 120AT fuel/water separator looks like. Raycor is famous for quality and very well accepted in the marine industry. This unit uses a spin on replacable cartridge and has a clear bowl so you can see when it need the water drained off. These are often mounted on Kubota, Perkins and smaller gensets.The 120 fits as close to perfect as one can get on the Listeroid! Fits in the same location as the stocker inside the flywheel and right on the side of the cylinder. Cartridges are available in 2, 10 and 30 micron. You will need to drill and tap 2 new 12/24 holes into the cylinder mount pad just above the existing holes that hold the stock fuel filter.You will also need to borrow a flaring tool to flare the stock lines and will need a couple of 1/4" flare nuts to re couple the lines to the new filter housing. The stock fuel line on my motor were just long enough to cut, flare and re mount. I do have a picture of one mounted on a 6/1 on my website but I don't think I should post it here as I would have a commercial interest and do sell these filters. These filters are available from many diesel shops and should be available locally for you. Good luck to you.
Troy
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I still want some sort of automatic engagement.
I wonder if :
- you put a "cone" shaped wheel on the end of a starter motor.
- and angled it a bit to the flywheel, as the same angle as the cone, so that you've basically got two parallel surfaces, cone and flywheel, separated by 1/4" or so.
- so that when the starter engages and the solenoid throws the drive wheel out, it touches the flywheel.
Only thing is the torque from the starter might smoke it up a bit - it depends on the contact area and how hard it's thrown out.
Any of the "nose-cone-less" reduction drive starters should do the job - it's relatively easy to remove the pinion (usually a retaining ring and collar) and fit something else. Actually..... the pinion spline on the front of the starter and the spline on your typical A/C clutch is pretty similar.... I wonder how close they are? Fitting an electric clutch to the front of a starter and making it belt-driven might be easier than it first looks.
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Eco Diesel,
Thanks for the tip on fuel filters. It's spelled 'Racor' actually. Here's a link to the unit you mentioned:
http://www.parker.com/EAD/displayCatalog.asp?menu_parkerid=46&menu_gid=3&menu_divid=109&catid=9816&subcatid=2551&catdesc=120A%20SERIES&viewtype=1&sMode=Details
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Do you have any idea what the price is for that filter? It looks alot like a Caterpillar filter, only shorter and I'm sure smaller...lol.
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Do you have any idea what the price is for that filter? It looks alot like a Caterpillar filter, only shorter and I'm sure smaller...lol.
This will give you an idea:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=racor+filter&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98024&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&fgtp=
As of right now there's a 120 on auction there.
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I have seen several starters for the listors/ the most common is a ford started from the 70,s that has a long shaft,,they are cheap and available/// the shaft is long enough to mount a small rubber wheel on it and a simple tilt frame to move it against the lister flywheel and a battery and a starter switch and solenoild and it has enough power to start almost anything//I have seen several small 3-5 hp briggs mounted the same way with a rubber wheel to contact the flywheel //it is a simple and cheap way to start one with out mounting a ring gear//sid
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hello everyone i am new to this forum and i must say that it having read some of the trends here this forum is very very informative and i would like to thank the relevant person or persons involved for keepin this site up and running ....
with that havin been said i would like to have some advice with my system....w i am thinkin about adding an electric start to the whole thing and maybe a few instrument panels ....i know it is possible but i would like to know if any one has done it b4? and if so will you be willing to share some pictures with me .....
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I used a Chevy V8 starter and auto trans flex plate ring gear becuase I had them.
I made an adapter on the lathe out of a short piece of round stock. I bored it for the shaft and drilled it for the flexplate bolts. I cut the keyway with a hacksaw and finished it with a hand flie. For the starter I welded up a support that could be adjusted with shims.
For an oil filter, I used a NAPA spin on base that uses the PH8 filter commonly used on Fords, because they are cheap and frequently go on sale.
I would suggest you add some kind of Gib key stopper as security to keep the flywheel on the engine, and my adapter does that. A pulley does the same on the other flywheel. Might never need it, but it makes me feel better.
Plan your work,
Work your plan.
Scott E
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I posted a Pic in the coppermine under SHIPCHIEF2 about my oil heater and filter, then I looked at the pic again and saw that it shows my starter fairly well. It works pretty good, and will pull the engine thru with the decompressors off. It's a 25/2 so this should work on any other listeroid single or twin except maybe the 20/1?
Scott E
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There are generating alternator heads in the 4-pole, 1800 RPM variety that have a built-in DC starter motor function and also charge the starting battery. These are as slick as you can get but they aren`t so easy to find. My 5 kW generating plant that has the 12 HP, PJ-1 Petter engine came with one of these. It is a two bearing job, with shock absorbing coupler, direct driven off the engine at 1800 RPM and uses 24 volts of lead acid starter battery to crank over. Needs the compression release activated. Below 45F I need electric start. The clue to these units is that they have brush commutator gear as well as the slip rings. They are massively larger per kW rating than the simple ST head equivalent.
I recently purchased a JD 175A from Altopro and have it direct coupled to a 1800 RPM, 2 kW Kohler alternator that also has the built in 12 volt DC starting motor/ battery charger feature. This head was a one bearing job I pulled from a 2 cylinder kohler engine in a scrap yard. I paid $100 for it and had to fabricate a end bearing plate and tapered shaft with ket to fit the hole in the drive enf of the armature. Much work but now I enjoy really slick electric start on my latest research directed, mini diesel power plant. This little plant only makes 1800 watts with that engine at 1800 RPM. At 2000 watts it is making black smoke. The 175 is rated at 6 BHP @ 2600 RPM. Getrting about 4 HP at 1800 RPM sounds about right. I`m running a 1.7 kW load test on this plant right now since I have just installed it in the generator room to the outdoor exhaust system and a thermosiphon radiator cooling system. Looking at the exhaust (slight haze, no black) it would be happy at this power level all day long.
My 1.5 kW load test last night at 1800 RPM yielded a fuel consumption rate of 0.75 litres per hour which equates to 0.50 Litres/kW hour of regular store bought pump diesel fuel. So far I have discovered that dropping the load to 750 watts reduces hourly consumption but the efficiency drops to 0.59 Litres/kW hour. Dropping load to 125 watts and RPM to 1200 I get really low per hour usage of 250 mL/hour but the efficiency translates to 2 litres/kW hour. Puke. :(
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There are generating alternator heads in the 4-pole, 1800 RPM variety that have a built-in DC starter motor function and also charge the starting battery. These are as slick as you can get but they aren`t so easy to find. My 5 kW generating plant that has the 12 HP, PJ-1 Petter engine came with one of these. It is a two bearing job, with shock absorbing coupler, direct driven off the engine at 1800 RPM and uses 24 volts of lead acid starter battery to crank over. Needs the compression release activated. Below 45F I need electric start. The clue to these units is that they have brush commutator gear as well as the slip rings. They are massively larger per kW rating than the simple ST head equivalent.
I recently purchased a JD 175A from Altopro and have it direct coupled to a 1800 RPM, 2 kW Kohler alternator that also has the built in 12 volt DC starting motor/ battery charger feature. This head was a one bearing job I pulled from a 2 cylinder kohler engine in a scrap yard. I paid $100 for it and had to fabricate a end bearing plate and tapered shaft with ket to fit the hole in the drive enf of the armature. Much work but now I enjoy really slick electric start on my latest research directed, mini diesel power plant. This little plant only makes 1800 watts with that engine at 1800 RPM. At 2000 watts it is making black smoke. The 175 is rated at 6 BHP @ 2600 RPM. Getrting about 4 HP at 1800 RPM sounds about right. I`m running a 1.7 kW load test on this plant right now since I have just installed it in the generator room to the outdoor exhaust system and a thermosiphon radiator cooling system. Looking at the exhaust (slight haze, no black) it would be happy at this power level all day long.
The comments about the combo genset/starter is really catching my eye. I've spent the last month or two looking for something that would generate 12v and take 12v for generator/starter duty, and I've had almost no luck. The Kohler and Hitachi starter/generators I tried were not able to spin the 12/2 up to even start speed with the compression released, much less with the compression engaged. These were the biggest starter/generators I was able to find, other than surplus aircraft SG units @300amps of 24v, which would probably work great if I they spun clockwise (I have chassis design constraints.) Otherwise, take a look at these : http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006121200113420&item=673&catname= - Getting things surplus is great, but get two if you're considering it since this kind of thing doesn't fall off trees at $169 very often - more like $3000, and good luck finding another one of these units (WWII surplus.)
Could you get me the part numbers for any of those starter/generator devices? They're probably too small for my genset requirements, but it's an interesting path.
I've pretty much given up on the starter/generator concept, and I'm going to build a belt-driven flexplate/pulley/alternator/car starter solution. Ugly and the safety equivalent to a circular saw, but probably cheaper and more available parts overall. I'll just need to build some shielding around the flexplate. I can't opt for the flexplate-on-the-flywheel deal, since again I have some width design constraints that a starter hanging off the side would conflict. I'll post pictures when I'm done; most of the parts should be in this week, and then it's just a SMOW. (Simple Matter Of Welding.)
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a starter idea,
Dave, and folks,
I've been looking at all the ideas for electric start and there are many that would work. I decided I didnt want to machine my flywheel, and I want true push button starting. This narrowed things down to a ring gear mounted on the crank, next to a flywheel. I bought a ring gear from Mike M., bought a heavy pipe flange from McMaster, put them together and started thinking. Seemed like a steel plate donut could connect the flange and the ring. I talked to my local machinist and he assured me I'd never get it right trying to cut the plate with a torch. He sent me to a big commercial shop that had computer controlled underwater cutting machines. These folks were as nice as could be and took about an hour to refine the concept(for free). A day later I had the pipe flange turned out to 2" ID, and a gib keyway added, and a 1/4" steel plate donut all drilled to bolt to the fllange and flywheel.
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/58/58/2/27/98/2237227980100184412ENeOuc_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2237227980100184412ENeOuc)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/57/657/8/36/19/2638836190100184412wIrGkc_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2638836190100184412wIrGkc)
I'm not sure where I will mount this assembly, but seems like on the hand start side would be out of the way of drive belts to the st. Would it hurt anything to mount the starter assy inside the flywheel? That would keep things from getting 2' wider on the side. I've got time to sit and look, and think some more. As always, all ideas are welcome.
ZekeÂ
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Hello all,
New here, but not to Lister's. I have a 28/2,,14/1 and an old GG 6/1 with over 40,000 hours..
The 6/1 is not to bad about hand cranking, but the other 2 are a bear when cold oil and the load of a generator.
What I did was get ahold of a few China, $150 , (Honda) clones. A 8hp for the 28/1 and a 6hp for the 14/1
I am just using a "b" belt running off a 2.5" engine pulley to and around the outside of the flywheel of the Lister. I made some "belt guides" to keep the belt centered on the flywheel.. There is allot of slack in the starting belt,, and I use a little flat faced pulley mounted on a handle that I press against the belt to tighten.. It works like a charm. Once started I just let the slack back in the belt,, and it just floats on the flywheel with no dragging, or nasty rubbing.
Sodbust
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Here is an alternate source for a large ring gear:
GM Part No.: 14001923
OD: 17.107"
ID: 16.267"
Width: 0.453"
Teeth: 204
Pitch: 12/14
Price: $18.43
Source: http://www.rockauto.com/
Apparently this was used on Chevy and GM trucks with 427 and 454 CI V8 engines from 1979 - 1988.
This is somewhat larger than the flexplates I've been able to find and gives a little more room for the starter to fit in alongside the generator.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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a starter idea,
Dave, and folks,
I've been looking at all the ideas for electric start and there are many that would work. I decided I didnt want to machine my flywheel, and I want true push button starting. This narrowed things down to a ring gear mounted on the crank, next to a flywheel. I bought a ring gear from Mike M., bought a heavy pipe flange from McMaster, put them together and started thinking. Seemed like a steel plate donut could connect the flange and the ring. I talked to my local machinist and he assured me I'd never get it right trying to cut the plate with a torch. He sent me to a big commercial shop that had computer controlled underwater cutting machines. These folks were as nice as could be and took about an hour to refine the concept(for free). A day later I had the pipe flange turned out to 2" ID, and a gib keyway added, and a 1/4" steel plate donut all drilled to bolt to the fllange and flywheel.
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/58/58/2/27/98/2237227980100184412ENeOuc_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2237227980100184412ENeOuc)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/57/657/8/36/19/2638836190100184412wIrGkc_th.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2638836190100184412wIrGkc)
I'm not sure where I will mount this assembly, but seems like on the hand start side would be out of the way of drive belts to the st. Would it hurt anything to mount the starter assy inside the flywheel? That would keep things from getting 2' wider on the side. I've got time to sit and look, and think some more. As always, all ideas are welcome.
ZekeÂ
I can't see why you couldn't mount it on the inner side of the flywheel. I would prefer it there as well. In fact, I have seen a picture somewhere of a set up mounted on the inside. I think it came from India like that. Ill try and find it.
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Have any of you guys investigated the 12V starting motor attached to the rubber boat trailer roller, hooked up to the base of the engine mount so it can be tilted up against the flywheel idea? Arrow motors uses this arrangement in their modern oilfield engines and it's discussed somewhere else on this forum. Seems to be a lot simpler than ring gears etc. Just my 2 cents worth.
Stan
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Hi The Arrow portable starter is a nice unit. It is a gear reduction unit that works well, I am sure.
I am not sure it is worth the $900 they charge. I am sure some one could reproduce this design for a lot less.
Dennis
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the 12 v starter and rubber wheel is a very common way to start a lot of antique engines/simple and can be made for very little money// also a small 3 hp briggs with a rubber tire tilted in to the flywheel will start most engines and is very easy to make/actually they a very common at antique engine shows//most people as they get older switch to smaller engines thinking they are easier to move as you get older but the opposite is true// a small engine you will try to move by your self and usually end up getting hurt//the secret is switching to the biggest engine that you can tow on a trailer// that way you never have to pick it up/ just leave it on the trailer and start it with a starter or briggs. engine...sid
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Ironworks:
I've been following okiezeke's posts on this and I believe the reason he didn't mount the gear on the flywheel was that he would have had to machine the flywheel to fit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stan:
I've been thinking about the roller against the flywheel idea myself, but I haven't come up with a good way to force the roller against the flywheel. I'd like to make my engine start remotely, so pulling on a lever or stepping on a pedal won't cut it. For my purposes, I keep coming back to the ring gear drive.
Best regards,
Andy Hall
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Hi Andy, Don't count out the 12 v starter with a hard rubber wheel yet The one thing in it's favour is the flywheel runs very true (hopefully) so you can situate the rubber wheel very close, 1"? to it. If you get a solenoid that will push/pull with 15 or 20 lbs of force and has a 3" extension, you can very easily build up a lever action that will give you a 3:1 advantage. That could give you 45 to 60 lbs of force for the rubber wheel against the flywheel. I haven't tried it ::) but it might be enough force to generate the necessary traction. The Arrow starter has a big ol' metal bar you grab and pull.
Stan
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Guys,
I'm thinking of doing the 12v friction wheel starter with a handle and a solenoid button on the end of the handle. Hold it against the flywheel and push the button, I think my wife might be able to do it except it is still mechanical! I'm looking for a common starter with a open type bendix that can be removed so there is just the shaft coming out of the starter. No bendix housing and bearing support. Basically looking for just a 12v motor without the bendix. I had a 51 MGTD that was that way but not to common now days! Any suggestions!
Dave
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the ones I see most of the time are the ford starters from the 80 s because it has a long shaft to mount the friction wheel and also it is cheap and very available/sid
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Dave,
I'm sure there are a thousand ways to start a roid. I chose to duplicate a truck flywhee-starter arrangement mostly because I know so little about the options. I figure in 100 years of auto design mabe they learned something. When I'm ignorant I KISS.
I'd sure like to see how other methods work, too. Good luck, keep us posted.
Zeke
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I've been looking for starter ideas myself lately. Read this thread and did some other web searches and wanted to report back a couple of things.
It's been mentioned that Ford starters have a long shaft -- useful for the rubber roller method against a listeroid flywheel. Sometimes people have specified the year as 1980. Actually the starter with the long shaft was used prior to 1963 in V-8 engines.
Also, here's a link to a great set of pictures for a portable rubber roller starter motor type:
http://www.herculesengines.com/starter/
I've sent for an old Ford starter motor through Ebay, and a solenoid. Will be making up the rubber roller and lever similar to the one shown in the link.
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Haven't used the hand crank since I did this install. http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4299.msg52147#msg52147
I found it was simpler to mount the ring gear on the generator than the engine also it's easier on the starter with the added mechanical advantage of the belt drive reduction.
Minimal fabrication easy install, cheap.
RF
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If it hasn't been said already, get a toilet paper bypass filter such as the Frantz and add a small gear pump to circulate the oil through the filter. 1/16" inlet is standard to prevent over-pressurization of the filter. No better or cheaper filtration out there.
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ebay item # 130433860254
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What I finally ended up with...............
View of the starter
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/startersidesmall.jpg)
View of the starter pedal and switches
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/footsidesmall.jpg)
Leece Neville 110-555 JHO large frame 160 amp addition……
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/LN110-555alternatorSmall.jpg)
Now that I have 12v I added a 12v fan and adjustable thermostat.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/fannswitchsmall.jpg)
No more KISS.............Here is the thing in action…….
[youtube] _QmWXNo-Gmg [/youtube]
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XYZER, Sweet. What starter did you use?