Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: listermandan on January 01, 2006, 07:01:56 PM
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I have owned my 6/1 lister clone for over a year now and I think it is one of the things I enjoy most in life. A friend of mine that owns a trucking company came over and checked out my engine as he could not belive that I burn his used motor oil for fuel. The first thing he said was you need to be useing 5/30 Amsoil heavy duty diesel oil in the crank case!! Ed is a very smart man so I ordered some, drained out the 15/40 Rotella,cleaned out the sump and filled her up with the Amsoil, Boy was I shocked!!! I gained 39 RPM!! I went in to emergancy shutdown Too many RPMs for this engine! So I backed off the govenor. Later on I put various loads on the jenny. The horsepower went up 40%!! I can now run my 5000watt clothes dryer and the microwave at the same time! Just thought I would let you guys know if you want to use less fuel have more horsepower and cut out the wear and tear try amsoil! Thanks Dan P.S. I have changed all of my vehicles over to Amsoil with excellent results. Here is a link. http://www.lubedealer.com/Easterniowasynthetics/ ;)
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Oh where to begin . . .
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Do you use Amsoil?
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If in fact this post is 100% accurate, it could very well be that a discovery has been made. The very same one Nascar racers have known about for 2 decades. Thinner oil produces more HP. Of course the oil must protect well for this to work.
Take a look at the viscosity of Amsoil at the oil temps the Lister runs at. Compare with the other oil. You may find some striking differences.
Nevertheless, thank you for the heads up. Used oil analysis will be able to determine if this is safe to do in a Lister.
Chris
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Boy does'nt take much to make someone mad arround here! Anyway my next project is to couple two 6/1 listers together and run them in tandem. Has anyone here tried this before? Thanks again.
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Hmmmm....let's see now, the Lister has a mechanical governor so it can't increase RPM, only change the rack position.
40% horsepower increase ??!!
That's why the warning. Nobody is mad, only tired of wading around in internet BS and we've decided to sit under the tree of truth through experience and swat spammers. ;D ;D
THAT being said--- I'm a firm believer in thin synthetics, whether it be Amsoil, which I've used for thirty five years, or another brand. There IS less load on the engine and auto engines usually idle too high. It DOES decrease the amount of gear drag in transmissions. I've driven over a million miles with it in several very high milage rigs without an oil related failure. THAT'S all *I* know. ;)
I'm going to try (a more readily availble) synthetic in my Lister once I have a date certain for bearing changes. I *think*, from past experiences with used trucks, there will be a drastic increase in oil consumption and probably a knock. With other engines I've had good luck adding STP to kill the knock and just add oil and a filter once in a while and forget 'changing' the oil.
Amsoil is GREAT stuff in manual transmissions and differentials in cold weather. There can be some amazing increases in winter-time gas milage with no other changes.
*your milage may vary.*
<my dad once cornered a fast talking 'gas saver' salesman at the county fair. The guarantee was "10% gas savings, buy two and save 20%." My dad ask why not buy eleven of them and make gas? The sales guy finally had to back off when the heckling started.>
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Boy does'nt take much to make someone mad arround here! Anyway my next project is to couple two 6/1 listers together and run them in tandem. Has anyone here tried this before? Thanks again.
No one is mad, but we have had some people log on to the site with multiple personnalities and start praising each other. You, with only three posts started to look like you would be following that path.
Now, you are going to link two 6/1? THat should be interresting, will they fire 180 degrees off of each other? How will you link them? Make sure you have a video camera avail to film it, that would be interresting to see. Question, why not buy a 12/2?
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After reading this thread, it seems like ListermanDan's enthusiasm for Amsoil may have raised our collective red flags in our "BS-O-Meters", but I am sure a video of tandum 6/1's would be proof that "snake oil" is not his business.
I am writing this though, because I actually need some advice from the forum. All my parts are pretty much in for my VegOil generator, but I have stilll not even started up my 12/2 and the crankcase is still dry because I don't know what I should do about engine oil.
I read that there is pretty much unanimous consent that synthetic oil is a good move for the Listeroid, and that it is in fact best to start from the begining on synthetic oil rather than switch over after using a standard oil. Does anyone have any reccomendation for which synthetic I should go with. Where can I get Amsoil locally? Is there another brand that people have experience with that my local Pepboys or AutoZone would stock? I see that there is standard moter oil that says it is formulated especially for diesel engines, but I have not seen any synthetic motor oil that markets itself for diesel use. Also, since I intend to run diesel and waste vegetable oil, is there any additional consideration regarding my motor oil choice?
I sure am anxious to fire up the 'Roid, any advice would be apprecated.
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I would do more research into using synthetic oil for start up…there is a line of reasoning that it may be too good of a lubricant and that it will affect the ability of the rings to seat etc. After that, there seems to be a lot of opinion on oils/viscosity/temperature/filtering etc….I believe the area most discussed on Listeroids is lubrication….
Joe
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Ditto to Joe.
Synthetic is a poor (too good) choice for break-in.
I do, and have used synthetic oils for over twenty years.
"Dyno" break-in oil for an engine with new cylinders, and/or rings was always V****** 30 wt. Racing (Non-Detergent) oil.
IMPO, to justify the expense of synthetics, you need to have a HIGH Temp and/or HIGH LOAD situation, (and HIGH DOLLAR).
My main use of this was in a 7000rpm air cooled engine that routinely produced 300+ deg.F oil temp, that had to GO with little or no warm-up.
My experience was that the cam lobes wore faster, but otherwise, it is superior.
Oil temps that Listeroid runners have quoted are too low to justify the expense of synthetics.
Bearing loading and speed is also VERY low in these.
See Hotaters (in crankcase) filter screen post. IMPO, changing "fossil" oil two or three times more often is better than paying two or three times as much for synthetics.
Kevin
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It seems like most folks don't want to bother reading this, but this weblink has an incredible explaination about all the different types of oil and the differences between. http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html
Ray
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So are you folks suggesting that I first break in the listeroid with regular diesel engine oil, and move to synthetic only after I have run the engine past the break in period?
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IMPO...Break in on regular oil... Nothing fancy...Synthetics can keep the rings from "breaking in". They lube too well.
Others may disagree...
Kevin
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Guys I am new to Listeroids and the first thing I thought of was running synthetic in them. I would rather use the 10W30-30 Diesel oil just off the top of my head. It has a 12 TBN which is a high additive package for use in heavy truck/off road applications. I would guess the new 4 stroke oil above would not have the high additive package but haven't checked either.
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there has been concern and observation made to the effect of not using any oil with a detergent package on these engines
as it keeps the particulate matter in suspension,
without a full flow filter system this particulate matter makes for a good lapping compound, and wear out your engine
non detergent oils allow for the particulate to settle out as sludge in the bottom of the crankcase.
do they make a non detergent synthetic oil?
also it has been discussed the use of multigrade oil, in that it may not have the sufficient load brg capability, and lead to rod brg flaking
just passin along the info, use as you see fit.
myself i will probably go with 30 weight non detergent winter and 40 weight summer, until i can get a better feel and understanding of the engines actual needs
bob g
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there has been concern and observation made to the effect of not using any oil with a detergent package on these engines
as it keeps the particulate matter in suspension,
without a full flow filter system this particulate matter makes for a good lapping compound, and wear out your engine
non detergent oils allow for the particulate to settle out as sludge in the bottom of the crankcase.
do they make a non detergent synthetic oil?
also it has been discussed the use of multigrade oil, in that it may not have the sufficient load brg capability, and lead to rod brg flaking
just passin along the info, use as you see fit.
myself i will probably go with 30 weight non detergent winter and 40 weight summer, until i can get a better feel and understanding of the engines actual needs
bob g
I did *some* searching for synthetic 30 or 40 wt oil. I don't remember the brand but the only one I found was a REALLY expensive, detergent type.
Thanks, Geno
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The only Syn oil I've found that's anywhere close to what a non-full-flow filtered listeroid might need is the 60 wt Amsoil racing oil. It might be worth consideration in a hot climate with a bypass filter after break in. Otherwise, the viscosity is probably too high for most people, and they don't put a lot of detail in about the additive package, other than to say it's appropriate for air-cooled motorcycles - which, incidentally, means it has plenty of zddp for the motorcycle gearboxes.
Frankly, given the temperatures and pressures involved in any listeroid, getting oil to the bearing is the hard part. If you've accomplished that, the areas and loads just aren't that extreme.
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http://www.renewablelube.com/
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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http://www.renewablelube.com/
Peace&Love :D, Darren
The racing lube is interesting stuff. Might be OK for a broken-in listeroid, but the lubricity and film-forming (they mention polar attraction and GL3 EP properties on the data sheet) might be too good for break-in, as is the case with synthetics.
A question I'd have to ask is: does it biodegrade if I leave it in the crankcase too long?
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A question I'd have to ask is: does it biodegrade if I leave it in the crankcase too long?
Good question the short anwser being no.
When you say "biodegrade" I think you mean oxidize. The amount of certain acids is what inhibits or promotes oxidation.
Vegetable oils with high levels of linolic acid rapidly oxidize.
On the contrary are vegetable oils with high levels of oliec acid which are very resistant to oxidation hense making them more thermally stable and outgas less weight per volume, making them even more thermally stable and loose even less weight from outgassing than convential petrolium/synthetic lubracants. (ie use less oil)
For example looking at linseeed oil it has a very high concentration of linoic acid which actually causes the oil to oxidize, thats why it has its drying properties and would not make a good crankcase lube as it would gum up.
A better example is high oliec acid canola oil or even olive oils as they are very thermally stable and resist oxidization (gumming) they are very resistant to airation and shear.
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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In any case the coolant temps have to be kept at 195F plus and 220 is better. It's difficult to get the oil warm enough in either Lister or in a two cylinder deere. Unless the oil is warmed up to near 212F. The water and unburned fuel that makes it's way into the crankcase will not be evaported away at low temps. Also a cold running engine drops more unburned fuel and water into the crankcase than a hot engine.
I echo the remarks on ring seating and cold weather drag in gear boxes. My GN burned oil until about 75,000 miles before she broke in the rings. Didn't burn oil for the next 150,000 miles. A quality synthetic SAE90wt at 32F is not as viscous as a mineral Sae 90wt.
As for a "quality" sythetic oil? Most are not made from true synthetic stock but are just reformed mineral oil. Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Lubrication Engineers and Amsoil are the only ones I know of for certain. Lubrcation Engineers will even mix a blend just for your application.
As previously stated, dodge the wide span mutli weights like 5W50 etc. 5W30,10W30 & 15W-40 are about as far as you want to go.
Oil viscosity required depends on the bearing journal dia, width, loading and clearance. In short, a tight sleeve bearing requires thin oil and wide clearances require thicker oil.
The shaft/journal rides on a wedge of oil, not unlike a surfboarder on the ocean. Too narrow clearances and too thick oil = no decent wedge. Too wide clearances and too thin oil = no decent oil wedge. In any case the bearing/journal life is shortened.
Many a small 3600 rpm splash lube engine has went "bang" due to too thick or too thin oil because the operator didn't read or believe the engineers who designed the engine.
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If you are talking about grabbing a flywheel and pulling toward and away from you, there is a tolerance for that. I'm afraid I have forgotten what it is. i'm sure someone will chime in. You correct it by using paper shims or joints to shim out the crankshaft main bearing housing. If you have alot of play there you may also have play on the rod. Grab it and see if it will move side to side on the crankshaft. There are shims for it as well.
Change of subject; I have been reading this thread and I would like to point out that diesel truck engine manufacturers recommend NOT using synthetic oils until you have at leas 70,000 miles on the engine. You could convert that to hours for the Lister. The synthetic oil is to slick to break the engine in. In fact it nearly eliminates engine wear. Once the engine is broke in and you switch to synthetic, it stops engine wear. I use sythetic oil in my Cummins. I can start it on the coldest days without plugging it in. It revs quicker also. I think it is a good oil to use. I intend to use it on my genset as soon as I get a filter system set up. As far as 40% HP increase? I think a study would have to be done. Thats a pretty big increase. That makes a 6/1 a 9/1 , almost. I don't think my Cummins had a 40% increase but it is noticable.