Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Petteroids => Topic started by: Doug on September 09, 2006, 07:31:48 PM

Title: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on September 09, 2006, 07:31:48 PM
Hello Group:

I decided to start a new thread now on my 10/1 Petteroid.

Its a powerline 10/1 Petteroid 102 bore 116 stroke all bushing unit ( no TRBs in this )with elelctric start and a water pump. First impression of the spare parts is they are massive and no one cut corners on the amount material used.
Most everything I see is a little crude but things seems to shiny where they need to be. No rust on anything I can see and no damage to the parts themselves like nicks or course tooling marks so I can let a small sigh of relief on that point. I've run my fingers over everything trying to feel problems an grit looking for obvious signs that might make were worry but so far nothing realy bad jumps out. There are some crude grinding marks on the face of the main bearing jounals, but I don't think this is an issue this doesn't look like a thrust bearing contact point but I have to check this before I give it a passing grade. The oil journal in the crank look a little crude too but there is an obvious attempt by the machinist to chanfer the holes and  it "feels ok".

The 4 inch piston is perfect, the spare bearings look as good as you can get. The grind on cam shaft gear needs a littel closer inspection before I pass judgment.

I can't go out there and open parts to dwell on them long my 2 year old also wants to look things over and he's not helping. I need to get the work bench cleared off and buy a 6 pack and be left alone for a while at my own pace.

Obvious points to those out there thinking of buying any 3rd world engine:

Are you a precision freak? Some things will disturb you.

A work engine isn't going to win a beauty contest ( nor will I ).

Treat as a hobby, move forward and learn as you go. These things are also time machines in many respects and a window into a way of life in the third worlkd most of us will never see.

Photo's and impressions as I progress.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on September 09, 2006, 11:44:40 PM
looking forward to seeing your progress, fun ain't it?

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on September 10, 2006, 12:12:42 AM
Yes its kind of like Christmas Bob....

Gasket set and seal look like top quality stuff. However the head gasket is just like on the Listers copper composit and a little thin....

Cam on closer inspection looks real good. I don't know about the hardness but the grind looks absolutly perfect and the 8 inch cam gear looks "Indian" but its got a hell of a lot of Iron in it. The govener is a big Glytal (type)  coated beast of the thing. There are a hell of a lot of parts going into a Petter cam and govener assembly. The cam is hollow with a linkage runniout to the fuel pump rack. There's a built in bearing on the PTO side for the accesories and its quite a bit more heavily built than you would expect because this is intended to serve double duty for the valves and fuel injection pump, staring handle drive and in my case water pump and alternator drive.

With the exception of the cylinder block most parts have been painted with a red sealant. The cylinder is painted Lister green inside the push rod recess and the finnish is a little rough, while the outside is that blue metalic paint that is seen in the Pictures on my putfile.

Oil pump is a gear driven gear type pump and the machining quality isn't spectacular but shiny enough not to make me worry.

My comfort level with the parts is a little better than it was after I saw the crank.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on September 11, 2006, 02:27:35 AM
Starting to find sand and grit in some of the parts. Fortunately these are spares and were never run and damaged. Sand in the main cam bearing assembly, for this I don't have a spare....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on October 15, 2006, 10:26:05 PM
The tare down is taking much longer than I had hoped because of time or lack there of...

To date I have the case open cam cover off, one head completely stripped and rebuilt and most of the smaller bits off opened and checked.

Nothing realy to complain about withthe exception of some damaged threads on two studs and one stripped banjo bolt. The cam in the engine is far better than the spare I have. The spare head is a far nice one than the one on the engine. I keep finding crud in places but nothing near as bad as I expected and the machining continues to improve the deeper I get into the motor to more critical parts. It apears to be a case of India saving shiny for where its needed rather than where it looks good.

Plaster is used to make the casting look better in a lot of places and this makes for some ugly clean up.
So far the name of the game has been to strip, scrap, clean bead blast fill and prime a little. Spot putty is as far as I will go to make a casting look good and I only go so far as to fill tiny voids. Ive used a little Devcon WR2 epoxy on some parts to smooth casting like the water outlets so a hose will not leak.

Painting is a combination of what ever they had so I have two shades of green inside, red blue and some bare cast. My paint job consists of Glyptal 1201 inside on beaded clean parts. My exterior finnish is red oxide prime, some spot, and intermediate coat of Guillevin "School Bus Yellow" industrial enamel with a final top coat of geniun CAT high gloss.
The CAT paint looks like a million bucks but the colour high lights every defect so on some parts I've begun to sand with an 80 grit -120 - 240 and a light sand between the first prime and spot and the final prime. I'm trying to keep the amount of paint on this to a minimum. These parts are cast and should look like cast when done I also only have 3 can of the CAT paint left before I have to go to the dealer and buy more or switch to a substitute that may not match.

All the fasteners have that blue panit on them too so they go into the steel shot machine for a spin. For rust prevention I follow that up with a light coat CRC Clear electrical varnish. I need to chase the threads on some holes and studs with paint in them for that I ordered a 17 dollar 5/16 Brittish fine tap and a die. Not a common item here in Canada so I might be waiting a few days.

Very little work is needed to clean up these castings for paint thanks to the glass bead. This is a must for doing and indian engine. The casting themselves are sound but the surface prep done at the works was awful. The dampness of the plaster combined with a dirty virgin casting leads to such a poor bond with the factory blue in some places I can remove a lot just with a thumb nail. This is a pityy because the hammered finnish bllue used at the works actualy seems like good paint and would have looked and held up well had it been done right the first time. Internaly there seems to be a mix of about 3 differetn products to seal in anything missed durring the clean up. A lister green that looks like just a standard oil paint, a light green hard finnish low gloss sealer of some kind and a red low luster finnish that looks like Glytal

Why all the plaster?
These casting aren't bad, my guess is they do this so often that now its habbit and the rough grind marks from preping the casting must scream to be plastered to them.

Knicks are dents in the casting are few, but the spare head had a little rougher go than other machined surfaces. Machining surfaces go from crude but acceptable on the head and cylinder block to some realy well done clean and flaw less finnishing on the block and covers.

Thats about it for now. My two year old realy tries to help and this didn't make for much progress today....
More pictures when the next batch of paint dries.
And I think I'm going to make my own manifolds and a third water outlet out of steel and try and make it look like the cast parts.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on October 19, 2006, 04:04:45 AM
Head nuts and gib key are my big head aches right now, I've been looking for a solutions all night.

Head nuts:

My biggest tools won't loosen the 9/16 WS nuts holding my head in place, I even cracked a 6 point 1 inch socket with an impact so the solution is a much bigger wrench and I think I can get a monster 1 inch from the Mill Wrights at work. Round two with the big wrench and a cheater bar if needed is comming...

Gib key:

I don't have the room or leverage of a long output shaft of a Listeroid to keep a conventional Gib key puller like the others have. But I do have a thick fly wheel casting so I'm going to make a puller from two pieces of plate bolted together. One to support the key and one to encircle the crank shaft and bolted onto the first for strength and suport. I'm going to to use 4 jack bolts one on the crank center and the other three against the flywheel. Tightened together they should provide me with enough force to free that key.

Extreme Option: ( prepare to cringe and squirm )
Sacrifice the crank, I have a spare and its only a 20 dollars. I just might be able to squeeze a blade in between the fly wheel and back of the engine and saw it off so I can press the key out and strip this miserable beast. And this isn't such a horifying option because I might still get a longer shaft sub arc welded on to the stub

I have to get that key out now when its new is better than later when I realy need those two spare sets of bushings. 

By hook or by crook, little blue monster won't beat me.

Oh ya stripped all four studs for the rocker box removing it to access main head studs. Something is wrong with the studs Powerline is using. This brings the tottal up to 5 stripped damaged studs on this engine all 5/16 WF studs. All studs were cleaned with a Gasket and Paint remover before I put a wrench on them and three stripped out with moderate effort ( one is probably serviceable but clearly damaged ). I've noticed that the thread fit is rather loose on some of these and it kind of leaves me with the impression that Powerline could be using a fastener with an extra loose fit like a class bolt used for being assembled dirt or with slightly damaged threads. Maybe this is the way WS bolts are suposed to fit I don't know but this is damb strange.
These are clearly new fasteners and look well made and undamaged I emailed Atual Patel about this latest batch of threads that stripped and I'm waiting for his reply. I don't think these were stripped being tightened but maybe someone sold them a bad batch of off spec nuts....

More info as it comes

Doug 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: buickanddeere on October 19, 2006, 04:51:47 PM
  Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook.
  A must read for any tinkerer and I just scored a new re-print at Crappy Tire.
  C.S. reafirms what I've seen for years about fastener woes. My company has sent us on a couple brief intruductory classes on torquing etc.  Eye opening and fear inducing figuring how many critical systems in all machines whose questionable quality fasteners are tightened via by guess and by golly.
  Once used fasteners in critcal areas and many brand new fasteners should be tossed in the scrap pile.   
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: lgsracer on October 19, 2006, 07:08:43 PM
Check out NASA's Fastener Design Manual.

It is available for download in PDF format here:

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?1990/RP-1228.html

ABSTRACT:
This manual was written for design engineers to enable them to choose appropriate fasteners for their designs. Subject matter includes fastener material selection, platings, lubricants, corrosion, locking methods, washers, inserts, thread types and classes, fatigue loading, and fastener torque. A section on design criteria covers the derivation of torque formulas, loads on a fastener group, combining simultaneous shear and tension loads, pullout load for tapped holes, grip length, head styles, and fastener strengths. The second half of this manual presents general guidelines and selection criteria for rivets and lockbolts.

Some other NASA pub of interest are located here:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/5900/5950/Publicat.htm
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on October 22, 2006, 09:18:46 PM
Atual Patel is looking into the matter and is talking to his bolt and suplier....

Gypsum dust and paint might be a factor, my stripper is caustic and may not be penetating deep enough to soften the goo.

Atual sugests trying to pull the fly wheel with the key if all else fails. A mechanic friend familiar with Gib keys drew a picture of something that might work. He also says with a little tension on the key and a sharp wrap on the fly wheel hub the key shoudl fire out like a shot....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 03, 2006, 10:56:49 PM
A second trip to the machine shop exposed a problem with the valve guides on the spare head...

Now its ben there for 3 weeks on a do as you have time sort of deal with the owner.

The head itself is fine, the guides were slighly to loose a fit  for a proper valve job. Fortunately Atul provided a spare set of guides ( Freebie ) in my order so I'm ok. Down side the 3rd set of valve spring retainers and taper lock keepers is even worse than the others.
These parts seem to be the lowest priority in production. I assume from looking at the tooling marks these parts are individualy fit and finnished by hand with a file. A little tinkering and I find I can clean these up and make an acceptable fit between the vavle stem and the taper lock keepers.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 04, 2006, 03:57:12 AM
Pushed out my Liner ( spare ) this evening. Its been moved a couple of inches, but never completely removed.

Its been sitting in crate 3 since September with a coat of oil and now its time to look things over closely....

Impressions:

Wow, I ran some hot water threw the block to warm things up and let it stand for 15 minuts. A gentle push and out it came. PEC ( Powerline brand ) used some sort of lube on the ring so it slid in easily ( they also included a spare O ringe, thanks Atul ). The block casting is kind of dirty inside, a white rag brings up some grit but nothing alarming. This is the cooling system so a little dirt here doesn't bother me. The liner itself is nice and rings like a church bell. The block too is nice, a few little knicks from handling at the works and possible staced like cord wood as we have seen in the Vithada video. I'd have to say the guys at the works did handle this with care.

This is comming to work withme like all parts do some time next week for the chemical strip and cleaning treatment. I'll run this threw the bead and shot blaster to clean the mill scale from it and seal all non sealing surfaces with Glyptal 1201.

Next will come the matchng of the block with the spare head to see how well the coolant passages match and a trip to the machine shop to check the deck for warpage and maybe under cut for the liner if it needs it.

Feeling much better about all these parts as I slowly work at it. Some people here have ended up with real garbage casting and dirt. I've been lucky, or maybe this is proof that PEC is dead serious about building the best tengines they can.

Atul informs me he's having a hard time with one of his casting supliers. Seems the suplier doesn't want to talk about a casting defect I found on Head 1. Atul tells me this is often a problem in Rajkot, even though he buys his parts from the same foundries and suplier as big companies like KOEL he stil gets hit with the ocational blem ,and this one got threw he's verry sory.

Isn't it nice to hear a frank admition from a works that there are problems and they are trying to resolve them?
Isn't even nicer to know these parts are so cheap you can afford to buy lots and have spares?

Doug 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 04, 2006, 07:59:56 PM
Time was on my side today, did the chemical strip at home....

Interesting observations:

Blue hammer tone hides a lot of sin lol....
But seriously these guys need to learn to be a little more careful with the castings. Petteroid cylinder blocks are machined on 5 sides so you can easily see if there was any rough handling and this block shows a few nicks from being stacked.

Another interesting things is the finnish of the casting. Yes Like all other Indian castings I have seen its only nice where it counts so the inside where the water jacket is, its rough. But on the exteroir unmachined surface a suprise was hidden. The suprise is a realy nice finnish.

I don't know why so many engines are coming from India with castings that would make you cry. Even the PS kit engines that are suposed to be the "Top of the Line Listeroid" are crude next to this block.

Atual Patel tells me hw only buys casting from best foundries in the Rajkot area, and he has many to chose from. He tells me he tends to buy castings and forgings from the same the places that KOEL does and generaly this works out well for him ( with the exception of head casting 1 that had a slight flaw, although it has a fantastic finnish )......
 
Photos of the stripped and clean casting and liner will be up in a few hours with a link from this post in a few hours. Today is my 36 birthday so I'm buisy getting things ready for my son to enjoy lol....

Doug
   
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: listerdiesel on November 04, 2006, 09:25:01 PM
It wasn't only the Indians that had casting flaws and blemishes, all of the UK engine makers had some nasties over the years, and many an engine has been paint stripped to reveal lots of filler in the castings.

See our Ruston 1ZHR pages for the new casting flaws in our replacement flywheel, that was a "no-rush but get it nice job".

Peter
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 05, 2006, 03:25:43 AM
I'm actualy pleasently suprised with these castings to date.....

The again there is still a lot of iron to be stripped....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 05, 2006, 05:54:54 PM
Making progress in India on QC:

I've been in touch with the works since I began the tare down of the Petter and the people at Anand/PEC have been very keen to get an objective opinion of the engine and faults I have found.

Atul informs me as of last night all these proviously mentioned problems are being lookd into
Its a lot easier to say this is a fluke or that just can't be. PEC has admitted there are problems they are out to resolve.

 Next Powerline that arrives whom ever buys it let us know what your finding....

Doug
 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: snail on November 06, 2006, 12:49:21 AM
Quote
See our Ruston 1ZHR pages for the new casting flaws in our replacement flywheel, that was a "no-rush but get it nice job".

I don't want to drag this too far off topic but 3 of the 4 Lister (Dursley) Flywheels I've blasted have porosity under the "icing"

Cheers,

Brian
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 06, 2006, 01:35:35 AM
Perhaps they had some issues then too.

However this is 2006, although I was never a foundry worker I spent enough time pacing the melt deck of a local foundry to know what is possible.

From two entirely different end oif the spectrum I know what a quality Candian made brake rotor with a high copper content looks like in the rough and I know what a dirt cheap Chinese clone from a local parts suplier is like.

Both of these show the limmits of what can be done on the cheap and at a premium and too me there is no reason to expect an Indian foundry can at least produce what a Chinese one can.

These casting are better than what we have seen yet from India. Case in point for those who have seen Quin's PS kit stripped of paint the voids and surface rust are obvious and clearly sign of a problem at JKson.

My PEC Powerline engine also has surface rust on some parts that was painted over. There realy is no excuse for this....

I think the first thing we need to ask builders is to stop with the plaster treatment and keep the rust to a minimum. Its not a huge expense to clean parts with a steam genny and oil them when dry if there not to be used right away. Obvious voids and roughness aren't a turn off if they are just cosmetic and if they must use some icing let it be automotive spot putty and not plaster. The acidity of damp gypsum under paint just causes paint bond problems.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: buickanddeere on November 06, 2006, 03:15:01 AM
 I wonder what share of the market goes to the west we we expect quality. Perhapes 99.999% of the engines are shipped in what ever shape to people who are glad to get anything that goes "Putt" for a year or two at the most. 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 06, 2006, 03:47:07 AM
The two fellows I mentioned in Malaysia like the Petter type engines because they are dirt cheap and parts are cheaper. But you get what you pay for and a junk engine is junk you have to know what to ask for right down to asking for brand name parts. Since we don't know who makes the parts we are already at a disadvantage.

Doug 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 08, 2006, 03:24:54 AM
Mostly talking to my self here, I know because no one imports Petters anymore and interest is in decline.

But here are new photo's of the roid ...

Doug

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on November 09, 2006, 03:00:28 AM
Hey Doug,
you are not alone...I've been watching with interest... you're right the cat yellow looks better.. and you QC guy looks like he's a tough inspector.. since my goal is to produce small CHP generators  I like the Petter for small power  more than the listeroid... I mean why not have an engine that is half the size and the same power...  I'm baffled why there isn't more interest in them..  the lister is only 650 RPM but since engine are just pumps a petter half the displacement  would make the same power @ 1200.. I don't see why the petter wouldn't last for over 10K hours and possibly much longer... I have about 15 petters.. 4 are minis... I'm also converting some to spark ignition for operation on LPG and NG... I think they are all fine little engines as long as they are run at low RPM... I like 1200 max on the petters and 1700 max on the minis... I really like the TRB but I see you prefer the bushings... If you keep posting I'll be following the progress...
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: RJ on November 12, 2006, 04:47:40 PM
Doug I am reading with intrest. Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I too am baffled why there is so little intrest in these engines. Did you have any problems getting your engine directly from Patal? (customs and such) I guess I'm wondering why you didn't purchase it from an importer in the states? I'm currently looking for a 25/2 and am having trouble sourcing one.

Please keep us all updated to your progress.

-RJ
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 13, 2006, 01:32:26 AM
I had no real problems with the India end of things...
The engine was delayed in production because of a heat wave, lack of parts for an extra 4 weeks.

Getting from the boat to my home however was a freak show....

New pictures to be posted of the cleaned and painted cylinder block to be posted shortly ( just loading them now.. )

fattywagonman.

I'm going to have to pick your brain off list, sounds like you know quite a bit about these engines and I'd like some of your thoughts about modifications. Especiualy in light of what your doing with the NG conversion...

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 14, 2006, 01:43:49 AM
I've stripped all the paint off the gear case cover now. I'm using a different chemical stripper and I flip flop back and forth between a steel wire wheel and a rubber fingered scrubber on a cordless drill to remove the paint. As you can see in this picture all the metal under that blue hammer tone and hunter green is now gone and what is exposed is something I've never seen in a "Roid" casting, a truely clean well cast part.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3987057

This raises more questions....

Generaly all the parts I have stripped have been good by "Roid" standards to verry good. The exceptions as far as finnish are concerned seem to be the common parts are the worse and special parts are the best.
A standard Petter doesn't have this cover ( unless its a twin or was ordered with the gear oil pump like this unit ). The head and block were good but things like the oil filter cover were far more crude.

The question that needs to be asked.
Was FuddyDuddy right when he said " India sends us the scrap thats been sitting in the corner " ?
Is this a one off fluke that casting came off with a nice surface finnish?
Is this a standard we can hold out and say " I want castings that start out this good, or don't build me an engne at all " ?

Doug

Any thoughts Group?
Do any of you have any Listeroid or Petteroid casting pictures stripped clean we can yard stick against each other. Jack's Fooking pictures showed some gruesome castings I'd like to assume were the worst you might generaly see. What can you guys dig up to show the best Listeroid castings.

Maybe I expect too much....
I was just looking over these castings again and the thought struck me. How well could I make a mold and pack it by hand then judge the temperature of the iron by eye. This may infact be how this is done in Rajkot. Its one things to stand on the bridge of crane looking downon a bull ladle feeding an automated line with parts dropping out the end like sausages and a different matter all together to do it all by hand, on the cheap. How do they measure the carbon content? What are they using as scrap? What kind of sand and binders? How often do they reuse the sand.
So many variables temperature, moister content, metalurgy, casting process, skill, attitude, time, fuel ect ect ect.

 
 

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on November 15, 2006, 01:24:57 PM
Hi Doug,
some suppliers use pressed steel timing cover others use a casting... doesn't matter if they have gear pump or piston ... The first engines I bought were from Gandhar and they used a cast timing cover... the next were from Basant and they use a steel cover... overall I'm happier with the Gandhar engines but the guy is not very responsive when you have questions or issues... From what I understand there are several casting suppliers.. most in Rajkot... so if you want to make an engine you buy a bunch of castings and take to your shop and machine them up.... maybe you can even but pre machined parts.... buy pistons, injectors, pumps, and all the gingerbread.. stick it together and you are an engine manufacturer... I originally got interested in the mini petters after seeing this site http://www.marathonengine.com/
BTW I'm not very good at checking PM's so if you want to get it touch about spark ignition info drop me a line at prontopower@gmail-dot-com   
John
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Mr X on November 17, 2006, 04:26:18 PM
Fattywaggonman Im over come with the desire to expand my indian family and would like to have a Petter. Im wondering, I have a 8 k gen and would like to produce 6 k would a 10 hp running at your suggested 1200 rpm produce enough power to produce 6 k .
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 18, 2006, 02:19:54 AM
Turns out the Indian oil filter in my Petter isn't available in Canada, or 3 different supliers are simply not able to match it.

Plan B replace the cast cover with a steel plate because the starter limmits access to the internal fliter anyhow and replace the BPT oil line from the rear main bearing return line with a BPT to JCI fitting and run that to a remote filter and runthe return to a fitting in the plate access cover.

I'd like to try and convert to full flow filtration but the oil galleries are cast in the crank case and I haven't had time to try and think this threw. Fattywagonman do you have any thoughts?

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on November 18, 2006, 02:54:26 AM
Doug,
I think a by pass filter like this http://www.wefilterit.com/ and a magnet in the crankcase is plenty of protection...

Mr.X,
I would think you could make 6kW at 1200 RPM with a petter...
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 18, 2006, 03:25:57 AM
Thank you for the advice Fattywagonman ( got a first name this is a pain to type ) on the Franz I was considering that BTW. Did you get a bypass filter option on any of yours?
Any luck sourcing hard and flex lines for fuel and oil ?

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 22, 2006, 12:20:48 AM
Did a little shopping around today with my son.

On the list were lines and parts to convert some of my oil and fuel lines to JCI where practical.

Telstar hydraulics, Maslack industrial suply, "Cambodian tyre", Acklands, Henniger's Diesel....

Everyone's reply to they lines was the same " What the hell is this ? " and " Nothing we have is compatable to this, and it doesn't apear to be BSP, Whitworth, metric ect ". So for those of you who follow in our Petteroid foot steps order extra lines and fitings or ask the works to use JCI from the start because what ever they have in India as standard is not even on the radar up in Canada at least...


Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: biobill on November 22, 2006, 02:54:39 AM
  Doug,
 I think the problem is that you are shopping too 'upscale' . Try Home Depot - the aisle with the toilets and sinks. ;D
               Bill
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on November 22, 2006, 03:02:51 AM
Your kidding me...

My Roid is part toilet?

That explains so much lol....

No seriously I'll check that out maybe plumbing fixtures is the solution.

Thank you for the tip

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 12, 2006, 06:58:17 PM
Uploaded some more pictures

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Found some scary stuff this week. Down right ugly pits and voids in the fly wheel.

Atul Patel tells me he has had issues with some casting because they suplier covers over some problems like this with graphite and epoxy.

He also says this he will try and have this problem corrected for future engines.

The Machinist spinning these should have noticed? Why didn't he report it?

I guess I need to ask Atul that question next email.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on December 12, 2006, 07:31:42 PM
Doug:

i think your questions re why the machinist didnt report it will fall on deaf ears

while these voids are unacceptable by first world standards, they are acceptable in 2nd and 3rd world.

after seeing the post and pics on where and how these castings are made, is it any wonder there are voids,
they could make the patterns thicker in section to allow for more material to be turned away thus cutting out the voids, but that
takes extra time and consumables, neither of which they are likely going to invest in.

what do you bet they never screen the casting sand, just use a rake and a hoe to break it up a bit, and go for it.

atlas foundry here in tacoma, casts mostly in steel these days, because of some of these issues
they find that cast steel can be ground and welded to repair castings before they are sent out for machineing.
and i am sure the screen and temper their sand very well.

an alternative filler is epoxy resin and cast iron filings from a brake lathe (free for the taking) and make for a very dense
and very close in consistancy and finish to the original cast iron part.

personally i might take a die grinder and carbide cutter to clean out and remove any flaws that might lead to a crack
before filling, but that is me.

nice job detailing the engine, cat yellow is not my favorite, but it sure looks sweet. :)

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 12, 2006, 11:23:00 PM
I thought about grinding out the voids but after the bead blast revealed them a little better I decided this wasn't much of the threat. These voids look like they were caused by gassing from the sand being a little more wet than it should have been.
The epoxy I used has Iron in it, this was specialy chosen and ordered for this task.
I doubt I'll have any trouble with this, but for Piece of mind I'm derating the engine from 1800 to 1400 rpm.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 18, 2006, 02:19:08 AM
What hellish stuff I chose to fill the voids. Sticks to everything and hard to work. Its hard like th iron now that its set for a week. IF you do what I did use it sparingly and don't think it s going to be a cake walk to shape and clean like bondo.

After much missery ready to prime and paint....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 19, 2006, 12:09:29 AM
The fly wheel has been a source of concern for me. I don't like what I found under the paint. The builder is also uncomfortable about what I found and has stated this is an area that they need to look at.

Progress has been made at PEC on the Lister types and now they admit the Petters need closer examination to try and bring them closer to a western product.

Structuraly I don't think I have a problem, estheticaly it looked like sin but tonight I primed and things are getting better.

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 26, 2006, 06:52:33 PM
Today I finaly opened the bottom end and stated looking....

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Notice the scratches in the bearings and a few odd looking polished marks. The pictures don't do justice the resolution isn't great. The bore does show a few marks but nothing realy bad. 2/3 of the rings were lined up, (big suprize) but the piston is in good shap very little indication any sand was in the machine.

Now that things are lightened up a bit I'm able to look a little more closely at the cam gear. Seems to be a little more backlash than I'd like. I need a dial indicator to tell me exactly what I have. You can't eye ball backlash.

Not shown, no half gaskets or anything wierd, the shims for setting the bump clearnce ( and there are 4 of them ) are steel and look like goo quality... shims ( what do I know about shims? I better post a picture of that next ).

Magnets in the oil screen for the pump pick up grabbed most of the iron. But if you run your fingers in enough places you will find stuff, gritty things and the odd machining burr.

Valve lifter feel smooth and when you rotate the cam they seem to spin.

Noticed some dirt inside the cam on the govener rod.

To be continued.....

Next I have to make some timing marks and pull the rest of the guts out. I suspect I need new bearings all the way around and possibly a new cam bearing. But things are looking up no real damage as I had feared,

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 29, 2006, 10:53:29 PM
I just set up to get some better images of the con rod bearings and uploaded.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4367132

This picture give you a better veiw of the damage done durring the test run at the works in India.
This extreme close up actualy lets you see the embedded material in the shell. I don't thinks this is sand so much as just bad luck and grit got in there. The Petter oiling system doesn't full filter so any material that get washed out of a crack or crevice is going to run the lube system several times beofre the filter catches it.

I think maybe there were some grindings in the crank oil galleryl. Under bright light the imbedded stuff in the brass glitters...

The jounal has some scratches but they are much finer than the bearing material. There's a pattern to the wear on the shell as well and I think the rod may not have been clean on assembly...

Doug

 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on December 30, 2006, 01:10:36 AM
Doug--

I have a stereo microscope....that material is probably 'silcon carbide' and 'aluminum oxide'.  If it glitters it's almost certainly abrasive  and is probably left over from grinding the OD of the piston.  It collects inside the piston and falls back out when they install the piston and rod into the block. 
You can imagine pallets of pistons in a room full of grinders all standing bottom up.

 There's a possibility the *premium* engines get a final crosshatch with the block in place, too! 

Casting 'sand' looks duller and the grains are a jumble of shapes and sizes with a lot of non-magnetic slag.  Actually, in the several engines I've looked at, casting sand is rare except under the paint and in the cam bearing (for some odd reason).  The solid majority of 'sand' is actually black silicon carbide and aluminum oxide grains of 280 and 320 grit, but it's mostly splinters.  According to my 'forensic abrasives' guy that means it was deposited from a working operation.  (not sabotaged with 'new' grit)

Carefully scrape that bearing with a new razor blade keeping the edge flat to the bearing surface.  No gouging.  Use your finger with a drop of oil to feel for stray grains that need more work.  MT-I has run over a thousand hours on re-cleaned shells.

NEVER throw away a bearing!!!  The one that NEEDS changing is a lot worse than the old scrap one on the shelf.   ;)
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 30, 2006, 01:42:17 AM
First thing threw my mind was your scrape with a razor trick Jack....

My gut feeling is your also right about the abrasive from grinding, andf I think it cam out of the crank. they probably forgot to wash put and blow clear the oil galleries.

I have a spare crank and two sets of bearings. The piston is aluminum and clean, so was the spare but the cam that was also ground seems to have abrasive crud in it.

The Petter 10/1 tare down is drawing to a close. I know I'm going to find the same on the main bearings and the cam bearings.

So far:
Bad casting for the head off set ports.
2 sets of valve guides not so far off spec can't be used.
3 sets of valve keeper and retainers all junk bad fitting.
poorly polished oush rods, still servicable.
2 off set and will probably leak water inlets on the cylinder block and spare.
Burs on the cam gears the spare far worse than the one in the engine.
voids in the fly wheel casting, possibly bad fly wheel.
Stripped studs on the rocker box and oil filter inspection cover.
Smashed in Gib key.
Stripped Banjo bolt lube for the rockler box.
Missing O ring for the decompressor lever.
Ruined bearings full of grit

Last things to check are the actual clearances on the rod and main bearings.

At this stage I guess I have to say this engine is probably not worth trouble. I haven't even started looking at things that could cause trouble like the alignment of the cylinder to the crank.

Final tally, aproaching 1700 cdn for engine, duties, taxes, shipping ect and costs associated with trying to fix what I found as I went along.

No one is importing Petter types that I am aware of at this time. No aprts are available to speak of.

Any one steps forward needing Petter parts or electric start parts I'll probably brake the Petter up and sell off the bits.

If not I may put it together and at least start it once, but I think its going to the scrap yard. Pitty so many of the parts and castings looked so good....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on December 30, 2006, 02:19:27 AM
Doug--

It sounds like you have a case of the 3 am Dreads and the OD on Indian goober paint all at the same time!!

I have some friends in the steel business.  He looked at your flywheel pictures last night.  Here's the deal according to Neal:

The voids and pits and orangepeel that we see is there simply because the Indians scrimp on iron.  Instead of cast a rough part and turn it smooth and pretty, they cast a part to 'right' size and turn the slag off of part of it.  He suggest turning it smooth and if you want to add back the weight, add a piece of steel plate to the back side.

Also-- two inch thick plate flywheel 24 inches in diameter is 500 pounds each!! 
Hundred fifty pound flywheels are only 18 inches in diameter from two inch plate.
 It's easy to make a flywheel from steel.  Then there's no doubt about safety.

That way you can certify your own.    ;)

ducking some...
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on December 30, 2006, 03:38:51 AM
yes and while you got your machinist turning it, you can have him add the serp belt grooves as well :)
and if you have room have him cut two sets,,, you can never have too many grooves in my book

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on December 30, 2006, 04:40:07 AM
As your machinist I just threw you out the door, Bob.  ;)

 Those grooves were designed by the Tooling Devil himself and the larger the diameter the harder they are to cut.   ;D ;D

I have a method of dodging hard work that's done me proud...when something is *really* hard work....find a good reason why it's not the *best* way, either.

A ribbed belt running on a smooth flywheel leaves six 'track'.  It's self cleaning because it doesn't NEED the traction the tapered ribs give.  SO,  I've decided by Belk's Dodge #2, that it's best to have big wheels smooth and little wheels grooved.   ;D
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 30, 2006, 09:15:06 PM
Well I apreciat your support Jack and Bob.

I'm going to think about this thing for a while....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 30, 2006, 11:24:06 PM
Conclusions....

It's hammer time.
Thanks guys.....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 01, 2007, 06:36:07 PM
decided to pull all the final bits out.....

Rear main bearing apears to have been installed backwards. There are two holes in the bearing housing one to feed presurized oil to the bearing and the other is return oil line to the by pass filter opposite the presure feed. I need to knock out the bearing to be sure but it looks like the oil inet line was blocked by the back of the bearing. The bearing is heavily scored and the journal is grooved to the point you can feel it with your finger tip.

The front main is lined up properly and is almost serivceable.

This explains why the bypass filter looked so clean, and yet there was all kind of silty material on the floor of crank case. I'm going to knock out the seal and bearing to double check this theory. It is possible there is a chanel connecting the by pass port to the main oil feed port behind the bearing, but all I can see is a return chanel from the space between the seal and bearing facing down to gravity drain.

There's no way this part was installed wrong or the seal chanle would have filled with oil and held it ( probably causing a leak.

The crank is finnished, to be used it will need a regrind and under size bearing or spray weld and regrind, no matter this is not in the budget and I do have a spare crank.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 01, 2007, 07:01:21 PM
THIS is where great bargains are made in the DIY business.   ;)

I'm not sure what you expected, Doug.  These are INDIAN engines!  Take a look at the MT-I pictures...your's sounds like a peach in comparison and I ran MT-I for 19 months straight.

You say the crank is trashed because you can feel the marks?  You can on a brand new GM, too.  Polish it with strips of 400 wet or dry silicon carbide paper shoeshined at an angle to the rotation.  You'll be amazed at how small those scars are.

Check to see if it's ROUND, first.  MT-I wasn't.

The 'budget' is TIME.  If you want perfection you have to pay for it.   Otherwise spend your time to make it so.  There ain't no free lunch..........no matter what the unions tell you.

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: dkwflight on January 01, 2007, 07:32:49 PM
Hi

Clean it up and put it together clean. Put in magnets. Run it an hour, drain the oil and clean the sump. Filter the oil and put it back in and run it some more.
The engine is plenty good and will run a long time.
Dennis
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 01, 2007, 08:29:34 PM
You realy think I can polish out groves I can feel Jack?

Hmm.....

I didn't expect much Jack at not perfection I should say. I expect things to be mostly right possibly too tight in places too loose in others dirtier than I like and a little crudely machined. Strangly I expected the castings with the exception of the fly wheel to be worse and the assembly to be better. Its obvious this engine was apart or at least looked at before shipping. Somebody screwed up the threads in disassembly and reassembly and used teflon tape to stop some oil leaks.

Jack what is crocus cloth equivilant too I have several sheets of it but no 400 here at the house.

Its obvious I expected too much, but I honestly believed they knew what they were doing.

I'm not angery, or upset about this but I am dispointed.
The things I expected to give me trouble were not what I planned for. I see some attention to detail, I 'm suprised a stupid mistake like a reversed bearing would happen or someone would fail to clean parts like your piston or my crank.

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: sid on January 01, 2007, 08:31:47 PM
Doug// looks like everyone has the same advice // like I told you ..put it together run the thing// if it is broke now the worse it can do is break again//save the good crank. put the old one and run it till it lets you know and then put in the new one and run it again/ by the time  it breaks again, you should be close to 75 years old/// good luck //sid
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 01, 2007, 08:40:19 PM
Ok....

I guess we're back on.

I was never a watch maker back when I worked in the electric motor shops but I was expect to hold a tollerence on bearing and bushing fits. Putting this back together would have got me fired if I were caught lol.

The old German up the road do my machine work would have chest pains if he knew what I was doing....

I'm kind of tempted to get him to cut the rear crank journal to match a 63 series ball bearing and make new engine cover to house it.

Have some 4 inch liner plate at work to make fly wheel but this would leave with out a ring gear....

Hmm...

more thinking...
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on January 01, 2007, 08:50:13 PM
Doug: i commonly use 400 grit wet or dry, the black oxide paper.
then follow up with 600 grit, and use diesel fuel , wd40 or whatever as a lubricant

it is amazing how fast it will clean up, and if you have some grooves, oh well, they just hold a bit more oil :)

talk to one of you mine mechanic's and see if he can dig up an old detroit engine service manual, the older ones are good for showing how
to polish up stuff, what to worry about and what to not worry about, and most of the info holds true and is applicable to most all engines.

i wanna see a clip of that thing running :)

because of how lubrication works in plain brgs (wedge forming) tolerances can be pretty sloppy compared to what you are used to on electric motors.

if you make up a flywheel from steel plate, why not knock off the ring gear from your cast iron wheel and have a step cut to mount it on the steel wheel?

bob g
ps. put it together, and like Sid said, it will likely outlive both of us.  i don't know about you, but it seems it is the engine that you don't care much about that keeps on
going, and the one you get anal about the seems to never be perfect. also the engine you don't care about, when it does fail it is no surprise, no upset. the one you spend hours, dollars and all sorts of attention to, is the one that sours your stomach when it has problems.

moral of the story, clean it up and run it.

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: sid on January 01, 2007, 09:08:49 PM
Doug/ it amazing what will run// an engine is not a swiss watch and does not have to be that accurate// unless we are talking about 10000 rpm race engine.. I saw an antique engine run one time that you could not tell the compression stroke.it was gas but it still ran pretty good // would not do a lot of work but it was impressive/I need to send you a picture of the rings that i took out of a 8 stover/they are the oddest shaped rings that you could think of..it is hard to call them round// they are 1/8 in on on one side and 1/4 in on the other side/when they warm up they expand enough to close the gap/ they are original and made that way/ they are 1/2 in wide and 7 3/4 in diameter/ I replaced then with 2 -1/4 in ring per grove/ so it now had 8 rings instead 4/ but run great///sid
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 01, 2007, 11:09:57 PM
Doug--

The first thing to do before major machine work is to establish a base-line.    Run it original first then make improvements as they're  needed.  As long as the  important things like sand removal and several oil changes are done it'll be fine.

Here's the deal on polishing--  It's not enough to make it 'shiny'.  It also has to be flat.  Visualize the ground surface of the crank pin to be magnified 100X.  It's like an otherwise flat concrete floor with light brush marks in the surface.  A  bad crank has an unlevel 'floor' with gouges in it.  Polish everything equally as possible with a slightly angled shoeshine motion.   #1 diesel is the polishing lubrication of choice, but #2 works, just stinks some.   ;)

400 grit while standing in the hardware store, feels like crushed gravel.  Don't worry, it's what you want. You'll need two sheets of 400, two sheets of 600 and then finish off with a around the bias polish with crocus cloth, which is 1/0 or about 1200 grit.

CLEAN the journal with solvent and then motor oil...SCRUB it with a white paper towel and 30W.  If it's no longer leaving a gray mark on the towel, it's  clean.  Until then it's an abrasive lap.

Ask yourself what the tolorences were on the African Queen....
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 02, 2007, 01:30:25 AM
Thanks Jack, Bob and others good advice as always...

I need to borrow a micrometer and see what I have to work wth first....

Just one question...

"then finish off with a around the bias polish with crocus cloth"
Dumb that down a bit please, you mean? straight on with the crocus at the end right not a diagonal like with the corser grits
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 02, 2007, 01:40:19 AM
Doug---

See if you can borrow a micrometer standard with the mic.  Unless you read large mics often it helps to have a reference handy for the 'feel' of it.

......and after SO much polishing you wont believe you can't read the difference so most folks screw it down a little tighter to make it so.    ;D ;D
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 02, 2007, 01:44:22 AM
It's been a lot of years since I used one on a regular basis ( or even just used one). I used to read to the .0001 on some jobs. Most motor shops don't bother with fine tollerences now and the work shows. Guys can't read a mic even if they try and the fits on the bearings are too tight or too loose.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 06, 2007, 12:26:04 AM
Atul is disapointed I decided to pull the pin.

I made promisses about helping with the development of the type and helping with new parts and upgrading
the engines.



****I request you please do not let down your hopes. For building this engines as per your specifications we are ready to support you in each & every aspect. Please send/email us list of spares you required for this engine.
 
As you told us "'ROME CAN NOT BUILD IN A DAY".*****

I like Atul, I remeber in one email he told me about a problem he faced and the delay it had caused. My reply was not to worry, Rome wasn't built in a day so don't worry take your time and we will work this out....

Game on, gonna fix it, gonna find the bugs and iron them out, gonna order a second or third and get this right.

Doug
 



Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: rmchambers on January 06, 2007, 01:48:12 AM
I'm glad to hear it too.  A listeroid doesn't fit with what I intend to do but a petteroid will.  Hopefully you will help them make decent stuff which won't require quite so an intensive teardown and rebuild.

It strikes me that Atul is genuinely interested in improving his stuff, he stands to sell more if they gain a reputation of being dependable and well made.  It's not often you see that kind of attention these days.

If he can get them EPA tested and approved he's sitting on a gold mine.

Robert
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 06, 2007, 01:54:31 AM
If you do some research you will find the KOEL DM 10 meets this requirement already, or rather a varient can.

KOEL will not sell their Lister and Petter types in North America.

Exactly how the Petteroid has been modified to meet the requirements is proprietary information.
I am slowly building apart number list for the modified parts and Atul is also aware of some "Parts of Interests"

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on January 06, 2007, 02:27:08 AM
good to see you dust yourself off and jump back in there :)

lets see you get er done

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 06, 2007, 02:37:37 AM
Game on Bob....

We're playing road apples heh heh heh.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 07, 2007, 04:59:24 AM
I screwed around with the rear main bearing today and found out a few things....

First the bearing was installed correctly, but something that looks like Teflon tape was partial blocking the oil inlet.
When I ( gonna regret this... ) blew in the oil feed very little air would pass, but sucking a lot more air flowed.

A shot of compressed air fired a white stringy gob of something out the inlet fitting across the shed.

So this explains how the engine managed to run with an oil starvation problem and dirt but not actuly get hot enough to spin the bearing and burn anything out....

My best guess is durring the test run the oil line leaked and someone took it aprt and taped it. The fitting isn't very well flared so I can see how this might have happened.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 10, 2007, 08:15:28 PM
Inside Gus:

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Who was Gus?
Well this engine was renamed for a fellow who used to work where I work, and a song by the Hip.

I think the name is fitting.

Shine on Gus, enjoy your pension.
Buck up Gus the polar bear some day your roar will scar people again...

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 10, 2007, 08:31:54 PM
Hmm on closer inspection and consideration, I don't I don't want Gus to scar, rather scare lol...

And man the flash does bring out the dirt Gus suffered from doesn't it?

Started polishing the rear main bearing as you can see in the phots. Gus's crank and bearings are deeply messed up. But with advice from Jack and Bob, I'm trying polish up Crank 1....

The nest time Gus makes power it will be with factorty crank 1 and new bearings.
I also don't like Gus's 1 head and cylinder block, but I'm going to work around the trouble and try and make a runner of the factory parts. Gus has spares, lots of them to try and fix whats wrong, and if push comes to pull when the time comes I will order more spares from Anand, I want these issues corrected on the new parts!

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on January 13, 2007, 03:28:47 PM
Quote
If you do some research you will find the KOEL DM 10 meets this requirement already, or rather a varient can.

KOEL will not sell their Lister and Petter types in North America.


Hi Doug
I looked for some info on this but came up empty handed... any links?
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 13, 2007, 03:39:12 PM
Follow the links at KOEL for the HA series, in sales crap is a short line about what engines are tier 1 compliant and the DM 10 and DM 20 are....

I don't have time to actualy look for link but its there.

Noticed my Cranks actualy have " DM10" stamped into the forging. But I don't believe these are KOEL cranks.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 14, 2007, 09:53:54 PM
Been buisy pollishing out the suffs and marks on Gus's crank...

Its not easy, I bet I have about 6 hours into it now starting at 400 ( actualy went as coarse as 320 on the rear ) and working my way up to 1000 now. Many of the scratches and groves are well beyond fixing. I'm going to work up to the 1500 and call it a day.

Gus now needs some paint stripping on the crank case and a coat of paint before assembly can begin.

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 15, 2007, 08:46:54 PM
Gus needs bearings now although I remain concerned the crank is junk, I have a spare I just don't want to waste it in case Gus turns out too messed up to run reliably.

Somebody may need that crank around here someday...

On with the show.....

Any sugestions on how to get these bearings out?

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4482323

I assumed they would come with some gentle beating with a blunt heavy object.
No but I did try and tap out the front main with a punch and a few taps from my big brass drift.

I email Powerline with pictures of everything asking for advice.
I suspect the Indians may press them out in the shop, in wich case I need to get yet another tool that will push the bearing out of the housing.

Another thing I have considered is peeling the bearing by nailing it with a smaller punch just one side to the seam between the two sides. a few good hits towards the center of the hole should colaps the bearing I suspect this might be the way it done in the field by some Indian mechanics.

In poses a new series if trials as well the new shell has a slight spring to it so I need to cook up some sort of piston ring compressor like jig to squeeze the bearing closed and round at the same time in order to press the new one in.

What the hell was I thinking?
Why did I blow my mad money onthis when I could have just bought an old Refer unit or something.....

Waiting on India now to tell me how they do this....

I'm going to upload more pictures of the bearing housing and the new bearings for all to see



Doug 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mactoollover2005 on January 15, 2007, 11:24:59 PM
  Hi Doug, i do beleive that you have to heat the whole housing to a fairly hot temperature and while the housing is hot u need to cool off the bushing so it while slide out.
 Good luck
Derek
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 15, 2007, 11:31:22 PM
Thank you for the sugestion, its another thing I considered but I wanted some input
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 16, 2007, 12:17:47 AM
Doug-
  Get a bearing puller/slide wrench and make sure the fingers expand to catch all the lip it can....THEN pack the bearing in dry-ice and Coleman fuel (white gas) for about three minutes.  If it doesn't fall out, the wrench will pull it easily enough to not wreck it.  SAVE that bearing.  I don't think I 've had one that GOOD after a couple hours of running.

'Perfection' DOES have it's limit, ya know!    ;D

Polish at an ANGLE....  If you shoe shine it it only gets smaller.  The grooves will always be there if you don't cross polish.

Just to keep your labor in perspective-- 

(http://thumb17.webshots.net/s/thumb1/0/77/12/78707712HoWbnQ_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1078707712028237237HoWbnQ)

That job was about 12 hours from raw casting to 320.

All you're doing is 'glossing' the part, not 'polishing' with anything higher than 600 wet or dry that's worn plumb out.   You're also depleting your lifetime supply of elbow grease and will require zerks, soon.    :o ;)

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 16, 2007, 01:23:11 AM
Jack I have cross polished it to the best of my ability.
The grooves you see are what I'm left with.

As a matter of fact I am all of elbo grease.....

But I've brought it down now to the point where the original grinding marks are about 60% polished out. The surface is as smooth as reasosnable.  cranks. I know theres no point to go too fine the steel and the bearing will find a point of equalibrium and thats how things brake in.

So slide hammer you say....

Dry Ice and Naptha. So pack the whole assembly in dry ice and emerse it in Naptha for about 3 minuts. Sounds like plan.

This bearing is scrap now Jack the other side has some dents in the face of the shell from trying to tap it out. I still have the two sets of spares and can get more so its no big loss.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 16, 2007, 01:33:21 AM
There's NO SUCH THING as too many bearings, gaskets, and 'stuff'. 

With MT-I I pulled the shells and they were dark gray with sand and silicon carbide 'dust' from the piston grinding.  I chunked (Southern for 'flung') them on the bench along with bad gaskets and nasty stuff.  A year later those SAME bearings ran a thousand hours.
  Dented?  yes.  Grimy, gritty and scared up, too.   ANY new bearing can be made to work and ANY bearing is better than one with NO bearing metal left.

After you're gone the kids can throw away the REAL junk, but for now consider everything is a 'spare'.   ;)
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 16, 2007, 01:39:13 AM
You never cease to suprise me. Ok I'll try and salvage it Jack.

If I ever cross that boarder again I need to make detour your way and meet you in person.

Doug

And yes your right about never having too many spares that why I ordered so much extra stuff with Gus....
Rememeber I even got a spare starter handle lol
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: rmchambers on January 16, 2007, 05:01:57 AM
what does the naptha or coleman fuel do in concert with the dry ice?  I know what the dry ice does but how does the flammable liquid fit in?  does it help wick the cold into it or does it help to lubricate the parts when they shrink and it seeps in the gaps?
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mactoollover2005 on January 16, 2007, 07:39:50 PM
Its amazing what simple ideas we over look sometimes unfortunately i dont think  i can get dry ice around here???
Derek
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: adhall on January 16, 2007, 08:04:50 PM
Derek:

I have purchased dry ice from Baskin-Robbins (ice cream store). You might also look for places that pack and ship fish or other meat.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: lgsracer on January 16, 2007, 08:10:56 PM
Its amazing what simple ideas we over look sometimes unfortunately i dont think  i can get dry ice around here???
Derek

Do you have a super Walmart? They usually have dry ice.
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Rod on January 16, 2007, 09:24:44 PM
Gus needs bearings now although I remain concerned the crank is junk, I have a spare I just don't want to waste it in case Gus turns out too messed up to run reliably.

Somebody may need that crank around here someday...

On with the show.....

Any sugestions on how to get these bearings out?

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4482323

I assumed they would come with some gentle beating with a blunt heavy object.
No but I did try and tap out the front main with a punch and a few taps from my big brass drift.

I email Powerline with pictures of everything asking for advice.
I suspect the Indians may press them out in the shop, in wich case I need to get yet another tool that will push the bearing out of the housing.

Another thing I have considered is peeling the bearing by nailing it with a smaller punch just one side to the seam between the two sides. a few good hits towards the center of the hole should colaps the bearing I suspect this might be the way it done in the field by some Indian mechanics.

In poses a new series if trials as well the new shell has a slight spring to it so I need to cook up some sort of piston ring compressor like jig to squeeze the bearing closed and round at the same time in order to press the new one in.

What the hell was I thinking?
Why did I blow my mad money onthis when I could have just bought an old Refer unit or something.....

Waiting on India now to tell me how they do this....

I'm going to upload more pictures of the bearing housing and the new bearings for all to see



Doug 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 16, 2007, 09:27:39 PM
Quote
what does the naptha or coleman fuel do in concert with the dry ice?

I don't know, but that's what the heat-treating places use for "High" temp cryogenics treatments of some stainless and tool steels.  Most cryo treatments are with liquid nitrogen at minus 3xxF.  The dry-ice/solvent mix is said to be minus 100 F, but I've never confirmed it.

 It makes a steaming slurry that'll turn earth worms to ramen noodles faster than anything else I've tried, but dry ice/acetone taste better.   ;D ;D

DISCLAIMER!!  An attempt at humor....don't try it,  and PETA stay off my butt.   ;)
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Rod on January 16, 2007, 09:38:48 PM
Doug: I fouled up one attempt to post this so I'll try again. In regards to pulling that bearing, Snap On made and may still make expanding collets with a flange on the far end. You slide it in till the flange is past the bushing expand it and pull. It will work with a slide-hammer or could be rigged as a puller. They may even make it as a puller - not sure. I've only seen a few, kinda  expensive but real nice. If you have a lathe it wouldn't be hard to make one, although without heat treating, it wouldn't last - but then how many do you need it to work. I would use heat with it. Good luck   Rod
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Stan on January 17, 2007, 01:15:57 AM
Hottater, you otta taste dry ice, ice cream.  Yummmy  Has something to do with the size of the ice xtals which are super small hence the creamy yummieness.
Stan
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mactoollover2005 on January 17, 2007, 03:19:13 AM
Thanks guys, never thought of walmart,will check next time i go to Ottawa,nearest supersized walmart :D  how long does it last if its in a fridge/ or freezer?? If i cant get dry ice is there a substitute for it?

Derek
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Quinnf on January 17, 2007, 03:35:12 AM
FWIW, anytime you dump dry ice in a liquid such as alcohol or (better) acetone, you make a bath that contacts all the surfaces of the part simultaneously so heat transfer is much more rapid and you get faster and more even cooling.  Dry ice/acetone gets you down to -72 C; just above the freezing point of CO2 which is -78C.  No way to get the temp. of dry ice lower than that.  Liquid nitrogen is -196 C.  At that temperature metals can get VERY brittle. Actually EVERYTHING gets very brittle at that temperature.  Methanol is also used with dry ice, but it gets viscous at that low temperature.  Coleman fuel might also.  Whatever works.

Of course any time you work with methanol or acetone or any flammable solvent you have to be very careful about fire, though at such low temperatures the vapor pressure (tendency to evaporate) is very much lower than that of the same liquid at room temperature.

Quinn
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: mobile_bob on January 17, 2007, 05:09:35 AM
Doug:

go with the hacksaw method, it is very easy to do and wont mess up a thing if you are reasonably careful, i would not use a chisel or punch
to cape the thing out, because it is easy to scar the inner surface of the cast carrier. scaring is just another hurdly you don't need to subject
yourself to.

once you get it out, go see your hd truck shop, and have them press it in for you, they have the press plates used for pressing in bushings in
king pin spindles. this is a simple process that is not a big deal for someone that has done it before.

don't use dry ice, there is no way it will shrink it enough to be a slip fit, and will rapidly pick up the heat of the carrier and expand anyway.

alternatively take it to a machine shop, or a hd truck shop and have a mechanic press out the old one and press in the new bushing, it is all of about a
5 minute job.

if i had it here i would do it for free, it is very simple thing to do.

bob g
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 18, 2007, 09:44:36 PM
Well it done....

I took the carriers into work and ask the Industrial mechanics for help.

The front came out with no issues, the guy doing it had plenty fo gray and checked the fit the machining was reported to be pretty good. The rear was  a different matter. All the gray hairs in our little machine shop looked at it, as of last night it was waiting for me at the first aid office ( funny when you think about it eh? )

The old rear main has a scar of the outer part of the shell inspite of all.....

I never recieved a reply from Anand asking for details on how they suggest this be done. Perhaps I have offended them by openly discussing the issues that Gus has. No matter its done now.

If the rear carrier is screwed so be it. The rear main floats, Wouldn't be hard from the look of to tottaly replace the rear carrier with a custom machined replacemet that holds a large ball bearing.

The meter keeps ticking, budget is blown but Gus should be back in one piece in th next few weeks.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 01:32:04 AM
Some of Gus's parts have been quietly on tour of town while experts look them over.

Gus's Fly wheel has been stripped clean of primer and filler again and first stop was the small IM shop where I work. I even asked our resident engineer if he had any thoughts on the subject of casting voids. No one realy had any comment but based on a surface inspection I am told I need more fiber in my diet....

Next stop was a local foundry where more friends in low places work. The melt deck crew and maintinance dept milked me for 3 dozen doughnuts. The lab guy ( a high school chum ) sectioned and did a shear test and polished and examind the grain structure of the iron form the duplicat intake and exhaust manifolds ( these were ordered specificaly for distructive testing ). The conclusions, possible high tramp metal content and the iron is too weak to be made into brake rotors for GM.... The reasons seem to lead to problems with the carbon content of the iron or the structure and how it was cast. I don't fully understand what he meant but on an up note he said for the intended purpose this Iron is ok.

The crank case and spare head, impressed:
With the exception of a few small pits he said this was done well ( foundery guy ). When I told him this was cast in a sand pit outside a small charcoal fired foundry by two guys in sandles he told me "I'm full of fecal matter". A certan amount of sophistication goes into mold preperation and the smooth interior surface shows these guys were using a two step process, green sand and some sort of clay or ( insert word I forget ).
Some shrinkage explains the wierd look of the back of the fly wheel. The risers need to be bigger and the casting need to cool slower to avoid this....

Fly wheel:
He wanted to section it....
This test didn't happen.

Main Shops NDE dept afternoon shift:
Gus's fly wheel again get the go over from a guy who used to check the hook blocks on cranes and other critical components with me years back. No cracks show on the magnaflux, ultrasonic thing used for drum hoists was unavailable. The voids look like sin but the iron apears sound, again told I'm probably looking for problems where non exists. This cost me a bottle of Rye and comes with a 20 minuts 20 kilometer warrenty I am told no one will certify a fly wheel like this unless several are spun to distruction, Iron quality can be verified and an engineer stamps a drawing.

Spare cylinder liner:
Apears to be done using a sophistacated proccess called cetrifigul casting ( ???? )
Material is too hard to make brake rotors out of for GM......

Spare block:
Not done by the same guys who did the crank case......

Crank and rod:
Possibly a Roll forging ( not sure what exactly this means ), followed by a single drop forging opperation.
The rod is as stated drop forged, more steps and sophistication to this part..

Total cost beer, boze, dohnuts, piece of mind is cheap...

So in other words, I may be judging Rajkot to harshly. I know I feel better about Gus.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 19, 2007, 01:45:14 AM
Doug---

I've always known you had plenty of fiber......but the smartgrass component was a little light.    ;D

it's good to hear from guys that know.

Re: spuncast ----   THis is how all cast iron sewer pipe and most all round things, including compressed air bottles are made.  Not much sophistication involved, but did he tell you HOW hard the cylinder liner was?  What material?

Re: Roll forging---  The malleable iron or steel is rolled to a 'blank' profile.  The blanks are fed to the drop forge that 'makes' a rod out of it.   It aligns grain structure and is stronger as a result.
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 01:59:51 AM
I never asked the lab guy for the actual hardness.
Everything was compared to a brake rotor, this is what he does drawn samples form the Ajax and pull rotors off the line. Some stuff goes into tiny brown paper bags and get sent out or stored in a room next to the MCC that feeds the arc furnaces.

Maybe I didn't ask the right questions, he was more interested in flaws and strength/toughness.
His job sucks, he does exactly the same thing over and over, reminds of sweat shop with all the intelectual stimulation of beings a ball sticher or the guy that paints dots on dice.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: rmchambers on January 19, 2007, 02:37:40 AM
Sounds like you ought to be feeling a little better about Gus then.  That's good to hear.  It must be great to have all those friends with access to the proper testing toys!

Looking forward to seeing/hearing Gus back together and in action.

Robert
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 04:29:57 AM
You meet a lot of people when you service electrical equipment.

One thing I have learned the humble doughnut is a currency of " favours ".

That and when Joe melt deck forman or Buddy service manager asks if you could wire his garage everything that goes around comes around. Never turn away the oppertunity to land a hand someday your gonna need one.

Yes I'm feeling better about Gus, and a bit foolish for stressing over things. I've probably also pissed of Anand a great deal by harping on the things that were wrong rather giving them credit for as much as they did right. Its hard to ballance and be objective when your so engrosed in something like this.

I find it funny that guys like Jack or Quin whom I suspect are as big prescion freak ( if not more ) can look at the Lister types and make judgement call on things based on gut feelings and be comfortable with it ( and right on all count so far ).The PS kit engines have offered challanges they more or less solved on their own. I had to know, and ask others, strip things that didn't need fixing, buff the hell out of parts ect ect....

I also asked a lot of Anand, perhaps held them to and expected a standard that a 700 dollar engine can't reach.

The learning curve is steep, but not so steep that I wouldn't consider a Gus2 or perhaps even a listeroid ( call this Bob ). I've had to aborted attempts to buy a KOEL KS6 ( listeroid 6/1 ) and now I'm talking to another group about a twin version of Gus2.

Maybe I need a Listeroid 12/2, a Petteroid 10-1 and a 20/1 GM90 and I can call them Harpo, Zeppo and Groucho ( add a twin Petter and I'll call it Karl )

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 19, 2007, 04:41:01 AM
WHEW!! :P

I thought we'd lost you there for a while.  One snort of lead-bearing green paint and you leaped right off into the deep end....with the rest of us.

Welcome to the world of   'Good enough for who it's for'.    ;)
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 04:52:48 AM
Learning curves are steep ::)

Doug
 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on January 19, 2007, 01:43:29 PM
Wow Doug,
You did a lot of testing.... and thanks for sharing it...

Now you know the material is good enough let me tell ya a little story.... One day several years ago I needed to rebuild the 3-53 jimmy that ran the gen in one of my derrick barges... it was spittin' oil out the stack and making a real mess...  we were building a bridge and had a schedule to keep so out of service wasn't an option. We managed to get a sunday off and so we decided sunday was the day... I ordered a kit and we went to work... everything looked great except the valve stems had worn up into the rocker arms a good 1/4"... I've still never seen anything like it... new rockers weren't available so I took them down to the deck and filled the ends with 7018 and used a grinder to make a radius... Well those rockers lasted another 3 years most times 24-7 ...and then I sold the business... last I heard the gen was still in service with something like 20,000 hours on the rebuild... the moral of the story is that some things (like a rocker assembly) just don't need to be perfect to do their job... Remember the Indians use these things right out of the box... we just happen to have the luxury to re-build these engines
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 07:44:35 PM
Today was the very last of the part inspections.....

Back to the machine shop to pick up the rebuilt head head. The factory head had an issues with the intake port being off center I didn't like and the spare had a less than inspiring job done on the seats as well as valve guides a little to large and not to be left out the valve keeper were not well made.

For 90 bucks I now have a head made from the best parts of the two and spares guides, valves and assorted parts.

It looks good and I'm happy!

I asked the machinist to double check the cranks I have, original VS the new one and check the fit of the bearings to the carriers. There's less the .0005 difference between the polished and new crank. There is a slight out of round and taper of .001 from my excessive polishing.

The carriers have no issues and I'll have about .003 to .004 clearence on the mains with the old crank. The old German looked over the old bearings and new ones in the carriers no comment from him. I work for a German years back and picked up a few phrases, I believe I heard this guy make a refernce to the back side of a barn animal about me  ::) under his breath.

I thought I was doing something wrong using the vernier and micrometer I borrowed at work so I didn't bother checking things over like the bushing. Turns out I just lack the skill the to measure the difference between the new and used cranks.

Valve lifters aren't very nice but he says I'm wasting his time and my money having him resurface them.

Last comments from the machine shop:

You need to relax...  What do you expect from a 50 year old engine ? And these parts don't seem to be bad at all consider yourself lucky you could find them at all......

I thought I told him this was new ( maybe he forgot ) and not a rebuild of an old engine.

So my revised shortened list of issues with this engine:

Dirt, possibly from the grinding opperations.
Over tollerence vavle guides that lead to a poor job on the vavle seats in the spare head.
Crumy vavle keepers that had to be mix matched, filed and hand fit.
Off set casting intake port ( not realy Powerlines problem, but they should have not used this head )
Off set machining of the water inlet on both cylinder blocks that'll require a little extra causion to ensure there is no coolant leak.
Ugly flywheel surface voids I have to fill and cover up.

What I've learned:

I can't cast a block and flywheel in with a small charcoal fired furnace my drive way, but India they can and they do it they manage to produce resonable quality metal.

Machining is a matter of perspective there's a difference between what looks shiny and what's shiny enough.

Quality control over there still needs some work, some parts are perfect and absolutely flaw less others make you scratch your head.

I'm done here now, new thread for the assmebly

Again thank you guys for all your help and advice
Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on January 19, 2007, 09:11:06 PM
Its been interesting following your angst, Doug. 

Would it be fair to say that in the final anaysis you found pretty much the same thing others have and the same level of quality and cleanliness between your engine and others?

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 19, 2007, 11:56:01 PM
Yes I think it would be fair to say that is correct Jack.

Where I excell was fretting over it....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Stan on January 20, 2007, 07:08:07 PM
Remember the phrase (attributed to a good friend)  "It's good enough for the girls I used to go out with"
Stan
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 23, 2007, 09:50:00 PM
Started making some some cooling system parts....

The housing for the thermostat is a # 16 JCI fitting, 1 1/4 niple, 1 1/4 union and this i a small jap thermostat and cooling fan switch. The watrer blank will cover the small oulet on the Petteroid head that was used for run threw cooling ( Ford tractor sending unit ). I'm going to use the injector side coolant port as an oultet for termo syphon.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4584421

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 28, 2007, 11:06:25 PM
Gus had sand....

The paint seems to have prevented it from moving but, thats like betting a seat belt made of duct tape will save your life.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4627756

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on January 31, 2007, 11:29:21 PM
The painting has begun:

Body filler was a dumb idea, now I've made more work or myself!

For those interested this is what a good coat of Glyptal looks like. When its thick enough the finnish changes from a semi gloss to near full gloss.

I was going to buy some more spot putty and bondo when something new caught my eye. A gray filler from Bondo that dries up hard instead of the softer easier to work body fillers. I'm going to try this and report back how well it works.

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: twombo on February 02, 2007, 05:38:45 PM
Doug

Gotta tell ya,  Gus is looking damn good to me! Keep up the good work and the QC guy will be running him when he is a "gray hair".

Mike
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 04, 2007, 12:48:37 AM
Found 3 pockets of sand semi covered in the cylender block today after a chemical strip....

About 1/8 tea spoon of sand in all at most hidden, this may be the source of the grit that ruined my bearings. Realy hard to say. The whole point of painting the insides was to prevent the movement of sand. Hard to judge what clumps were problems and what clumps were stable.

Pictures to follow shortly...

Doug

Wear your safety glasses when using chemicals and and tools that could throw material. I broke that rule today and had to wash my right eye for about a minut.

Safety first!

As promissed I uploaded the casting sand pictures today. I used my die grinder to liberate the sand, it looks like there's a lot more but rememeber there a mixture of paint steel wool in one photo and sand and iron filings in the other. As Always the casting has been sealed with Glyptal 1201A, now I know nothing will ever move and cause me trouble again.
 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 05, 2007, 03:28:48 AM
Here's a new complaint I never read anything about here before.....

I just noticed A huge bur on the side of my intake cam lobe. Looks like the metal curled over the edge durring the grinding process. Easily removed....

The Exhaust lobe has some heavy scratches. Tough to say if thats a case of poor polishing or if something was stuck to the lifter base durring start up.

I wonder if I should try and polish the lobe?

Pictures later....
( spare cam sure feels like it was a wise investment now )

I've some realy interesting photos for you guys today!
Look at the abrasive crude on that cam. Funny how I never noticed this before....
The scracthes in the exhaust lobe seem to be from this stuff.

And to my suprise with a little effort and 400-600-1000 sand paper 90% of this trouble polished right out.
I'm going to reuse this cam and keep the spare as a spare.

Side note, the spare cam has no exterior crude but I know there is some in the bearing I can feel and on the govener push rod when. 

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4694389

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 09, 2007, 06:25:00 PM
Lifters are back from the machine shop today....

I just need to hone my cylinder and finnish fabricating an oil filter, finnish the intake and exhaust, make the coolant parts and assemble....

Of course I still need a head ( third attempt seems to have fallen threw ), build a frame and build all my controls and wiring.

At this rate the engine will last forever, cause its never done anything lol...


Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 13, 2007, 07:45:33 PM
I decided to try and make a preheat device from a glow plug for Gus.

This is where my idea of using JIC fittings for the intake shines. If this doesn't work, I can quietly toss the part out and make something else...

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4763268
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: rmchambers on February 13, 2007, 07:55:41 PM
Looks like a medieval thumb torture device or worse!

so this fitting goes where? right on the head, or somewhere inline with the intake but after the air filter?  apply juice to this for mumble mumble seconds, then initiate start sequence alpha sucking in a charge of super heated air which will fire off at the first compression and shot of diesel.

Looks good Doug.  Keep plugging away, make sure you get a sign-off from the QC guy and get that baby running.  I want to buy it from you when it's done.

Robert
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 13, 2007, 08:12:44 PM
This part threads onto the intake manifold I made with what looks like a giant flaired compression fitting ( because thats what it is inside diameter is 1.5 inches). The manifold isn't quite ready yet, I have yet to make an exhaust from the same parts and eventualy a an air cleaner is going screw onto the preheater.

Too my way of thinking this is the easiest way to go. I just don't like the fit and finnish of the Indian parts and with cold snaps like last night -28 c I need to come up stuff better adapted to Northern Ontario. I was going to use 3 glow plugs placed 120 deg apart but this was such a pain in the back side to weld, set up drill, tap and fit I stopped at one.

Who knows maybe this will end up at the igniter in a flame start system.

Thats the Beauty of JIC fittings no bolts, no pipe fittings to fight with and worries about sealing. It also have a nice 45 deg upwards bend from the head and the bend on the fittings is a very smooth clean radius so I may have a modest improvement in air flow.

I also bought a bottle of Muiric acid and descaled the original liner and cylinder block. This worked realy well ( thanks for the tips guys ) but it stunk up the laundry room and no matter how clean I also got the laundry tub the wife wasn't happy. I used a 5:1 solution in three steps and each step was a little weaker. At first the bubling scared me I thought I was doing some more harm than good, but the mixture wasn't as strong as recommended for cleaning.
 
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: fattywagonman on February 14, 2007, 02:10:13 AM
If you want to improve cold starting try heating the injector...
Makes a huge improvement..
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 15, 2007, 01:19:33 AM
Thats also in the works....

I was thinking of a fiber glass sleaving over the injector line and and injector and a winds of nicrome wire as a crude heater....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on February 17, 2007, 02:11:12 AM
A trip to the auto parts place lead me to believe a PH 6009 filter would be a good option to replace to the filter from India on Gus. So the QC guy and I took the filter housing to Canadian tire to try and fit the filter.

The QC guy ( My  2 1/2 year old quality control inspector ) and I discussed the possibility of replacing the by pass unit with a full flow off the main oil gallery and feeding the rear main and rocker box oil. By the time we reached the parts counter the QC guy had misplaced the bolt that held the Indian filter, so we are going the full flow route now I guess, with a drain off the rear main less the bypass.

The QC guy was quite upset about his missing "machine part". I wasn't so tickled myself, but its just one more thing to add to the list of spares when the order goes out.

Thankfuly Powerline is still there aswering all my emails and telling me I can getr anything I need....

Dough!
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on March 06, 2007, 11:44:54 PM
New pictures up of my upgraded intake air filter and beefed up cooling system flanges built around JIC # 16 and  # 24 fittings....

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Doug

Trouble with Putfile seems to be fixed now and I reloaded some pictures, enjoy
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on March 14, 2007, 01:54:30 AM
More fab work, more frustration.....

Dave has been buisy on work welds so, the Petteroid parts production line has slowed. The last of the coolant parts is waiting for welds and final fit and the exhaust manifold is in layout. Actual exhaust system parts beyond the manifold are a build as you go item so Gus will test fire on the factory original manifold and silencer.

Final painting has begun.

On to an ST head.
Venders don't seem to like to negotiat price in Canda. I had a nice little conversation going with one fellow untill I provided him with some figueres on the cost of ST heads form several manufatcurers and shipping, duties ect ect. I never made an offer, I asked him for reasonable price....

This kind of pissed me off so I think I'm going to post a list of prices for ST heads from Chinese manufacturers so everyone can see and gauge the prices paid.....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on March 14, 2007, 02:10:46 AM
Ever wonder what kind of hoops you have to jump threw to import something like an ST head
I hope this helps you guys buying heads to see the wide difference in prices, but the reality is these are still cheap.

What kind of difference do you think there is between the $115 dollar head and the 202 dollar head????????

 
************************************************************
Mindong Yanan Electrical Machine co., Ltd.
No.14 JinLin Road, Fuan, Fujian, China,355019
Tel:0086-593-6350898, Fax: 0086-593-6350889
http://www.yanan-motor.com Email: sales@yanan-motor.com
http://yananmotor.en.alibaba.com/

************************************************************
Dear Mr Doug
Thanks for your e-mail, we are sincerely looking forward to cooperation with you,
Regarding to your email,we can produce the 600/347 and 208/120 Vac 3 phase 60 HZ alternators ,
Following is the price for ST-5 single phase 120/240 Vac 60 Hz unit
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ST-5KW  $115
 
Above is for your information if you have any question please do not hesitate to contact with me any time..
 
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Offer          Sheet
Re: ST series A.C Single phase synchronous Alternator
Contact: Power Chen                       
Email: powermotor@163.com       
Mobile: 0086-13599199280
Item   Output   Dimension(mm)   Gross Weight   FOB Fuzhou
(US Dollar)
   KW   KVA         
ST-2   2 KW   2.5 KVA   520x285x455   53 Kg   $ 85 FOB Fuzhou
ST-3   3 KW   3.75 KVA   520x285x455   58 Kg   $ 93 FOB Fuzhou
ST-5   5 KW   6.25 KVA   630x380x545   100Kg   $145 FOB Fuzhou
ST-7.5   7.5KW   9.38 KVA   630x380x545   105Kg   $158 FOB Fuzhou
ST-10   10KW   12.5 KVA   680x425x585   120Kg   $182 FOB Fuzhou
ST-12   12KW   15.0 KVA   680x425x585   130Kg   $198 FOB Fuzhou
ST-15   15KW   18.75KVA   730x460x650   180Kg   $262 FOB Fuzhou
ST-20   20KW   25.00KVA   730x460x650   195Kg   $275 FOB Fuzhou
ST-24   24KW   30.00KVA   730x460x650   208Kg   $287 FOB Fuzhou
ST-30   30KW   37.50KVA   920x550x730   290Kg   $466 FOB Fuzhou
ST-40   40KW   50.00KVA   920x550x730   320Kg   $508 FOB Fuzhou
ST-50   50KW   62.50KVA   920x550x730   370Kg   $621 FOB Fuzhou
We also can supply STC series three phase,; T2H series phase compound excitation type(64KW—120KW); TFW series brushless alternator(from 8KW---120KW);   

YANCHENG JINGWEI INT’L GROUP CO., LTD
Add: 12 EAST YANHE ROAD, YANCHENG, JIANGSU, CHINA
PROFORMA INVOICE

To   :                                                        Date and No.:
   No.   :   
      Date   :   
From   :   Shanghai to Port of .   To   :   
Insurance   :   TO COVER ALL RISKS BY THE SELLER   Shipment   :   
Payment   :   BY 100% T/T at USD5190, upon the LCL SHIPMENT by B/L SCANNED COPY from Shanghai
QTY
   Commodities & Specifications
We order some ST gen heads(brush alternators: 120/240V, 1-Ph,60Hz,1800rpm) with A.V.R. with better heavy steel electric boxes with 220V circuit breaker inside rated for the generators’output AMP:
7 - ST-5 x USD202 =USD1414
2 - ST-8 x USD228 =USD456
2 - ST-10 x USD264 =USD528
2 - ST-12 x USD302 =USD604
2 - ST-15 x USD339 =USD678
2 - ST-20 x USD365 =USD730
2 - ST-24 x USD390 =USD780
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL:     19 UNITS      US$5190.00 ONLY, CIF
Transport mode: BY LCL container SHIPEMT FROM SHANGHAI TO . THE ABOVE PRICES HAVE INCLUDED THE TOTAL OCEAN FREIGHT.
THE DELIVERY DATE: Around Feb End/ early March.   Unit Price   Amount
   ST 1 PHASE BRUSH ALTERNATORS with AVR, with better electric boxes
CONSIGNEE/NOTIFY PARTY of B/L:

Phone:       
   BENEFICIARY: YANCHENG JINGWEI INT'L GROUP CO., LTD.
            12 EAST YANHE ROAD,YANCHENG, JIANGSU, 224001 CHINA
             BANK: BANK OF CHINA,YANCHENG BRANCH
             20 EAST JIANJUN ROAD,YANCHENG, JIANGSU, 224001 CHINA
             SWIFT CODE: BKCHCNBJ940   
Our bank A/C No.:     
      
   CONFIRMED BY THE BUYER                                CONFIRMED BY THE SELLER
   
                                                    
         
         
         
         



Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on March 30, 2007, 10:17:20 PM
I have purchased an ST-5 from Altopro.
He's flexable on a lot of fronts and I am pleased with the deal we struck, not the cheapest head I could get but the least trouble.

Dave finnished welding the exhaust manifold for me this week and I started draw filing it flat. Next finnish the thermostat housing and maybe I ask Dave if he has time to weld up one more flange and fitting for my 7/8 ID cooling system parts.

I work with a weld who can do real magic. Welding in the hands of most people leaves a lot of distortion. A true master of the trade like Dave can held stuff out of fittings and plate and leave you with a half hour of filing to get things true.

Gus's cam came to Petteroids labs for detailing this week. A litttle  grinding followed by 1201 and its perfect.

So tired.....

Lights are on now at the end of the line....

Doug   
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on April 15, 2007, 03:59:17 AM
Slight hitch, the head Pat sent me has some damage, after a few email he's going to eat the loss and replace the end bell that has some cracks from shipping I guess.

Pat generaly sells stuff no warrenty or refund. The fact he is replacing parts tells a lot about the man. I guess if this happened often he would say buyer be ware but no he stood up and said he's cover it.


Bravo Altopro

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: rmchambers on April 19, 2007, 01:12:31 AM
Doesn't surprise me,
   I was kicking the tires on a petteroid he had, and he was willing to go to some lengths to make it easy for me to purchase it, and that's without knowing me from Adam.  At the time I didn't have the funds to deal with the purchase so it got sold to another bidder.  But the way he treats people says a lot about the guy.
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on June 16, 2007, 06:08:04 AM
Agreed!

I think I'll buy more from him.......

On a lighter note today was mop up day, I cleaned some space for Gus.
I've been very quite last month or so as I work threw some issues on my home grown parts. I still have alot things needed to be made and fitted.

The final count down has begun:
I did a mock up this evening and most of my custom parts fitt well, I have to mount the starter to make sure the lower coolant fitting clears. The oil filter and modified oil filler( Kubota )-cover plate-crank case access door have to be tested with the starter. The fuel filter( Kubota )  has to tested with the lines and the existing block studs.

2 more shifts and I'm off for a few weeks of holidays and hopefuly it will be time to build a frame for the engine and head.

Head is now ready but for the wiring.

My but this became involved.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on June 22, 2007, 02:39:42 AM
Everything fits.....

Some issues with the rocker box and rocker arms. I don't like the way things fit and I may strip it yet again and try and build a better one with the spares and original parts.

There also seems to be a warp somewhere. I haven't looked into it closely enough to guess but can manage to shuv the corner of a cig pack under the corner of the rocker box.

Front bearing carrier was much tighter to squeeze in than remove. I chilled and well lubed it no problem

I noticed now that the oil lube hole in the bearing was in the 6 o'clock possition. I know thats how I took it apart (center punched the castings). I rotated the carrier so now its at 11 o'clock, This doesn;t present any oiling problems because the outer race of the front carrier hsa a relief machined in it so oil can feed up and around to catch the cam and main oil gallery. Hopefuly some of the gray beards will jump in and tell me if this was a mistake ( its still easy to spin things right up untill I close the  cover.

Oh ya crud in the cam, noticed the balck specs as I prelubed it. took me about an hour to finaly get it clean.... 

Oh ya and that iron casting that holds the crank gear and torques the preload on the trust bearings. It looks black in my early pictures and now its painted because a little rub with some oil released all kinds of crap. I washed it, scrubed it and fianly resorted to Naval Jelly ( I love that stuff thanks again Jack ). One clean and painted I now believe I have sorted out all the dirt

Also of interest but little practical use, the oil pump can be flipped. I guess if you order the counter rotating cam you can simple flip the pump and run the engine back wards.

There's an interesting hole bored down from the deck orependicular to the rear cam bearing. This is acst iron bearing so lubrication is critical. Oil travels threw the cam center, but I think at one time this may have been a presurized bearing. Might try and do someth ing with this if I can find a way to tap into it connect it to the gallery below. Notice it to the left of the exhaust lifter and block studd

So here's the pictures
http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on June 22, 2007, 03:35:31 AM
OH.... MY..... GOD.....

I'm such a twit I put my oil pump in backwards lol.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5755302

Thats what you get for not paying attention to what you are doing.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: t19 on June 22, 2007, 03:50:00 AM
well there will always be a job for you in India

LOLOLOLOL  WOW
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on June 22, 2007, 05:49:44 PM
Indeed Rajkot has a great deal to worry about. I may start my own works here in Canada create some western competition by employing like mindedly short sighted people to badly assemble roids lol....

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on July 04, 2007, 12:20:16 AM
And the fat lady sang......

Just a Gib Head key to fit left.

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: hotater on July 04, 2007, 02:01:49 AM
Doug--

The practical joker in me wishes there were a way to hook up some smoking, spewing, popping and colorful fireworks to your engine for it's test run..........   :o
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on July 04, 2007, 02:37:26 AM
Well, there are still things I don't like and wish I could change.

Fireworks and coloured lights, who knows I might have missed something lol....

Doug

Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on July 16, 2007, 03:03:47 AM
Knocked Gus off his dolly tonight.

Bent govenor arm and fuel rack and snapped a fuel line fitting off.

Should have asked for help to move it.......
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on July 31, 2007, 06:01:48 AM
Found all the parts needed to convert the Existing oil lines to JIC fittings from Kubota. These are standard easy to find fittings all BSP to JIC #4 and can be had at any good hydraulic shop....

Same goes for fuel lines but the inector return is a 10mm banjo bolt you can get from any diesel shop

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: dkwflight on August 02, 2007, 01:36:35 AM
Hi Doug

It sounds like you are getting close to putting the petteroid to work.
 Good luck

Dennis
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on August 03, 2007, 03:14:50 AM
Things move slow, I need to nuild the new garage and knock down some old shacks before thegenerator shed goes up.

Sadl this may not happen this summer. U  have to gut a kitchen, knock down a wall, build a new kitchen, gut a bathroom ect ect ect.

I wish I was dead right.....

Upgraded:

Someoil ines are now a larer #6 JIC.
# 4 JIC for the rocker arm has a brass restrictor to reduce oil flow.
Need a presure resliefe for the oiling system.
Need to rethink my 12.75 inch alternator puly. Material this sizer is hard to come by, found some 4 inch plate and some 1 inch mild. More thought required.


Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on September 13, 2007, 12:41:23 AM
No work done lately but its cool in the nickel city this evening ( around 60 F ) so I decided to do a test of the upgraded grid heater.

90 seconds with the two NGK glow plugs ( salvaged from a Kubota 520 mini loader ) brought the intake up to bloody hot. Too hot to handle and the paint has softened enough to make the two parts fuse...

I would call this a succesful test, the air cleaner didn't burn, no pealing paint and the head even seems to have warmed some.

The final product will probably not need anything else for a cold start...

Doug
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: buickanddeere on December 09, 2007, 07:03:02 PM
  What is the most recent report on that cleaned up and blue printed Powerline 10/1?
Title: Re: Powerline 10/1 inspection
Post by: Doug on December 09, 2007, 07:35:09 PM
Well things are kind of at a stand still since the Kitchen reno that went wrong ( Home Depot "You can do it the rest we'll screw up for you " ).

Updates building a bracket to hold a Kawasaki diesel waterpump and thermostat housing.
I have since given up on the other attempts using individual parts.
I have aquired a 5 imperial gallon steel fuel tank with a sight gauge ( also from the Kawasaki Mule ).
Looking for a smaller doner Alterntor to hang off the water pump bracket ( and provide belt tension )
Incomplete ST doghouse replacement still needs wire ( all parts mounted I'm just too buisy )
All steel cut and springs and soloniod mounted for the Fuel rack auto shut down ( just not assemebed and tested this might be abandoned since it makes things too complicated )
Still hunting for something to build a 13 inch pully for the ST 5 ( would like some 1 1/2-2 inch plate, hard to work with material that thick, too cheap to farm the job out right now ).
Electric decompressor, still born project.
New air cleaner, done
Mufler, have one needs a new neck welded onthe match the petteroid.
Remote oil filter done and all lines converted from BSP to JIC fittings and hydraulic lines.
Oil presure relife valve made from scratch needs to be tested and.

Engines is otherwise assembled and ready to run.

Need spring and warm weather top build a new garage and time to putter.

Would like to swap or buy a short style PTO cam Petteroid shaft for the long ones I have
 

Doug