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Author Topic: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!  (Read 10475 times)

sid

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 12:27:52 AM »
Jack// been there on that run away///it will get your attention real quick/// I can see something like a choke cable holding the throtle in position//sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

Doug

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2006, 12:05:19 AM »
Kubbota, Duetz and a few other engines I have seen have a manual shut down rod you pull out like dead mans throttle to close the rack or injection pump down.

They work....

Some also have the same thing to rev up the engines and run the hydraulics ( we called it Cruise control on the 520 Cubs ). Not a good idea to confuse them.

Sounds like we're getting ready to head down the shutter road again so I'll quickly sugest the Victaulic 77 series of air/water valves. These are all rubber inards with a simple gate valve in 1 - 2 inch sizes. A little creative welding could make a great emergency shut down I think.

Doug

 

sid

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2006, 10:30:48 PM »
just a reminder for the mini petter owners.. do not forget that they have two water inlet ports. a top and a bottom on..be sure to drain the bottow one too. it will hold enough water too freeze and bust the cylinder.just got back from an engine show and saw a beautiful old 15 hp fairbanks wit a 12inch crack in the side from last winter cold weather/ yes it does get that cold in the south.sometimes.///sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

Guy_Incognito

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2006, 06:47:24 AM »

Sounds like we're getting ready to head down the shutter road again so I'll quickly sugest the Victaulic 77 series of air/water valves. These are all rubber inards with a simple gate valve in 1 - 2 inch sizes. A little creative welding could make a great emergency shut down I think.

Doug
 

I guess you won't have too much trouble with oil getting pulled in under high vacuum somewhere and dieseling with that engine.

Hopefully  :D

I've seen a Detroit 149 run away and a 16 cylinder two-stroke at 1500RPM over high idle is something you don't want to be near. I did my apprenticeship at an open-cut coal mine and we had quite a few trucks with that engine in them. When we started one after an injector changeout one day, it just spun up .. and up .. and up. We didn't realise there was a problem until it went past high idle as they were used in a diesel-electric setup and used to sit at 1800rpm all day.

Holy cow! Abandon ship!

It was possibly the loudest engine note I have ever heard - and the old 149's were loud enough already! Everyone in the workshop scattered, but one brave soul ran up and flicked the switch that released the flaps on the top of the blowers and it dropped it's note for about 2 seconds, and of it went again misfiring all over the place - the blower oil seals were sucked in and it ran on it's own oil until it seized. Turns out someone had dropped a rocker bolt from one of the cylinders and it wedged into the rack at full fuel. The alternator logs showed it had reached 3650 RPM.

The funniest thing about it was that a day or two later, I was talking to one of the maintenance guys at the washplant - about 1/2 mile away - and when I mentioned the engine letting go he said, "Yeah, we were all in the cribroom having lunch and suddenly we could hear this wail over the noise of the plant, so we sprung up and hit the e-stop and the whole place ground to a halt... but the noise kept going! That's when we realised it wasn't us, it was you guys over at the workshop." They heard it let go over the noise of 7 stories worth of pumps, conveyors, centrifuges and vibratory screens.  :o

rcavictim

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2006, 09:26:16 AM »


Sounds like we're getting ready to head down the shutter road again so I'll quickly sugest the Victaulic 77 series of air/water valves. These are all rubber inards with a simple gate valve in 1 - 2 inch sizes. A little creative welding could make a great emergency shut down I think.

Doug

 

I`ve got a 2 inch ball valve here somewhere.  Maybe I should install it on my VW plant.  That engine has no compression release so no way to kill it in the event of a runaway except to stop the intake air.  I have observed that the slightest air leak will allow the VW diesel engine to continue to run.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

europachris

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2006, 12:33:54 PM »
I've seen a Detroit 149 run away and a 16 cylinder two-stroke at 1500RPM over high idle is something you don't want to be near. I did my apprenticeship at an open-cut coal mine and we had quite a few trucks with that engine in them. When we started one after an injector changeout one day, it just spun up .. and up .. and up. We didn't realise there was a problem until it went past high idle as they were used in a diesel-electric setup and used to sit at 1800rpm all day.


We have a 16V-149T powered 1MW backup genset at work.  The muffler is the size of a couple of 55 gallon drums laid end to end.  BIG sucker.  Even still, the set is deafening when running at 1800 rpm.  What a glorious sound, though, when she lights off.

Chris

dkwflight

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2006, 12:53:25 PM »
Hi
On the VW diesel. I remember that on the vw cars there was a modification the the crankcase vent to help prevent the oil vapors from a worn engine produce a runaway. The runaways were fairly mild at first. You could overpower the engine with the brakes and slow the engine down.
I don't remember the details.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

rcavictim

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2006, 01:37:26 PM »
Dennis,

The first VW engine I bought to build my genset from turned out to be in really bad shape.  It was a 1.6 from a `84 Jetta.  Practically no oil pressure once warm and so much blowby that it did try to run away on me more than once during testing of the finished plant but disconnecting the fuel solenoid and a hand over the air intake did the trick to shut it down.

I went to a lot of trouble making a fancy valve cover vent oil separator filter to catch liquid oil and let it drain back into the valve cover instead of being pumped by the blowby into the intake manifold collection box.  It was less than 100% effective.  I finally gave up on that engine with great disappointment and managed to locate another, a 1.5 L from a 1980 Rabbit.  This little engine is in really good shape as far as low blowby and no oil consumption.  It runs like a champ.

I plan to rebuild the 1.6 as a spare engine, ready to drop in when needed.  It is on my engine stand now.  The cause of low oil pressure was not a  stuck bypass valve in the oil pump as I thought but when the last person pushed the intermediate shaft into the block they curled the split front bearing, pushing it out of it`s channel.

I subscribe to the VW Diesel list and the problem of runaway from a well worn engine ingesting it`s own oil is documented by a few members.  You are right, they have been able to in some cases stop them with the brakes but in one case the engine went supersonic and just stopped on it`s own when it ran out of oil.  Never came apart but sure hid the car in a cloud of smoke.  T`was somewhat exciting for the driver we were told.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 10:05:00 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2006, 04:01:46 AM »
Guy_Incognito

I own a Petteroid, its a little different but I don't think the high vaccume would cause a problem uless I sucked in a seal or something. Anothe fellow here with Petteroids snuffs out his Petteroid this way.

Doug

rcavictim

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2006, 05:51:30 AM »
Guy_Incognito

I own a Petteroid, its a little different but I don't think the high vaccume would cause a problem uless I sucked in a seal or something. Anothe fellow here with Petteroids snuffs out his Petteroid this way.

Doug

I own a original Petter PJ-1.  Air cooled 12 HP@2000 RPM.  The crankcase ventillation is a small short steel tube that is inserted through the head from the space under the valve cover into the intake air passageway just ahead of the intake valve.  As such, if one were to manually block the air intake port on the head, lube oil would likely be sucked up the pushrod tubes from the crankcase into the rocker box and eventually through the PCV pipette into the intake valve.  A hard port blockage would surely starve the engine of enough air to bring it to a stop before the oil got very far but a highly restrictive air filter condition could theoretically cause oil injestion by this circuit.  For this reason, and as a diagnostical tool in locating the source of oil in my exhaust I brazed the PCV pipette closed and ran a separate, external PCV line fron the valve cover into the midsection of my outboard mounted oil bath air filter.  Through the external clear hose I discovered that i have no blowby.  My oil in the exhaust appears to be a crack in the head allowing oil from the rocker gallery to penetrate the exhaust pathway on the way to the head`s exhaust connection port, downstream of the exhaust valve.  Aside from this annoyance my Petter runs like a champ.  It can make 5.5 kW electrical output at 1800 RPM wheer it is factory rated at 10 HP.

If the Petter were to try to run away I could simply move the exhaust valve lift lever to release the compression in addition to closing the fuel rack.  The manual cautions NOT to use that as a method to routinely shut down the engine however!

To answer questions others have had about the reliability of the mechanical governors on the Indian Petteroids. I cannot speak for those but my original English Petter governor works well and appears to be trustworthy since my engine has accumulated over 99,000 hours in the power plant it came in.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2006, 04:18:30 AM »
Hard to say much about why the run away happened. I've looked at the cam and the govener rod/linkage/weights and it can't see what may have snapped. However the injection pump does have a return spring that fully opens the rack without something to hold it back incase of a failure of some sort. Others with the adjustable external  throtle have a third spring and linkage that pulls the rack closed.

This is a lot of springs and parts that can add up to trouble.

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2006, 04:38:11 AM »
Guy incog:

interesting story re: the runaway 149 detroit,,

never saw a detroit continue to runaway with the air doors slammed shut, not enough air to do much more than a very low idle at most.

it had to be getting massive amounts of air elsewhere, which is hard to imagine.

as for sucking in the seals, was this a 149 turbo model? or a naturally aspirated engine?

about what vintage was the engine?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

rcavictim

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2006, 04:59:57 AM »
Hard to say much about why the run away happened. I've looked at the cam and the govener rod/linkage/weights and it can't see what may have snapped. However the injection pump does have a return spring that fully opens the rack without something to hold it back incase of a failure of some sort. Others with the adjustable external  throtle have a third spring and linkage that pulls the rack closed.

This is a lot of springs and parts that can add up to trouble.

Doug

My Petter is that way also.  The big spring on the FI pump pulls the rack into full throttle if there is no governor arm at the end to push it back in and close the rack.  FI pump is a Bryce.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Guy_Incognito

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2006, 10:50:14 AM »
Guy incog:

interesting story re: the runaway 149 detroit,,

never saw a detroit continue to runaway with the air doors slammed shut, not enough air to do much more than a very low idle at most.

it had to be getting massive amounts of air elsewhere, which is hard to imagine.

as for sucking in the seals, was this a 149 turbo model? or a naturally aspirated engine?

about what vintage was the engine?

bob g

It was 15 years ago, but the were relatively old then and each one had about 20K hours on them - we'd bought that fleet off some other mine. The newer ones we had had DDEC2 systems on them which were a lot less prone to runaway. They were the 149's with the (quad?) turbos  - they were spec'd at 1800HP. From what the fitters told me afterwards, the boost pressure from the turbo's fully spooled up can either bend up or spring the doors on top of the blower after (or as) they slam shut. It's the blower seals that let go and let all the oil in, something about their seal geometry didn't hold up to high vacuum well. Well, so those cynical old fitters reckoned, but maybe they were leading a young sparky astray too and just covering their arse. It did spin down for what seemed to be an eternity after the flaps were shut before picking up again, but it can't have been more than 4 or 5 seconds.

Alas, I'm fuzzy on the full details now -   ???  Too many beers between now and then methinks!  Doesn't help that I'm the guy that fixed the wiring, not the mechanical bits either - the main thing I remember is spending the next day unhooking all the wiring off it and accidentally dropping the *cough* rather heavy and expensive 50DN alternator about 15 feet off the back of the engine onto the concrete.