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Author Topic: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1  (Read 260 times)

gadget

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After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« on: September 06, 2019, 01:54:48 AM »
I did lots of research many years ago and have had to relearn allot. I have many questions, still researching....

After talking with Gary, I decided on an 8/1 instead of a 6/1. Also getting a 5KW ST head to start with.

Initially I am going to set it up as a backup generator with an interlock to my panel.

Next step is to getting it running on WVO and possibly WMO/Distilled fuel oils and recover some heat for domestic hot water. Will also add a couple of auto alternators for the 12v and 24v batteries to top off what my solar panels can't keep up with.

Eventually I want to build a 24v axial flux generator for my 24v battery bank

I want to also convert my DIY freeze dryer to belt driven vacuum and refrigerant pump and run off the flywheels directly.

One other idea I want to try is to use the exhaust heat to distill WMO. I have done lots of research on WMO and ash. Its a tricky subject.

Gears are turning.......

-Gadget

mike90045

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 06:50:11 AM »
.......

One other idea I want to try is to use the exhaust heat to distill WMO. I have done lots of research on WMO and ash. Its a tricky subject.

Gears are turning.......

-Gadget

I get about 310F on my 6/1 exhaust pipe at the outlet, I don't know if that's going to be hot enough to distill with

ajaffa1

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 12:45:09 PM »
Hi Gadget and welcome to the forum, my first question is what country/continent do you live on? I can point you in the right direction for parts and etc in the USA, Europe and Australia.

When you say Gary, I am assuming you are referring to dieselgman. He has a lifetime of experience and my advice would be to listen to him.

A Lister/Listeroid  8/1 should provide you with many reliable years of service, provided you strip it and clean it before putting it to work, casting sand is your enemy and needs to be eradicated before it gets into your bearings and buggers them.

An ST5 head is a very reliable unit, however the build quality varies a lot between manufacturers. The first thing is to buy a unit with COPPER windings, the second is to check the quality of the bearings. The ST5 head I own, came with the worst bearings I have ever seen and the bearing housings were full of casting sand, a twenty dollar investment in decent bearings and a good clean and it will be good for ten years. The other thing is that the slip rings appear to be epoxied in place, they generally are not concentric with the shaft and need skimming on a lathe, otherwise you will get through a lot of brushes rather quickly. These units do not usually come with automatic voltage regulation, instead they have a  bridge rectifier to feed the field windings. As the current draw through the unit increases so does the current through the field windings thus regulating the generator output voltage. This is a very simple and rather antiquated system, for about $40 it is possible to buy an automatic voltage regulator that will improve the output considerably. Do not throw out the old bridge rectifier as it will get you out of the sh1t in the event of an AVR failure.

The ST heads do not produce a very clean waveform, especially when coupled to a single cylinder engine. They are very good for  standard domestic electricity supply but not so good for sensitive electronic equipment, please buy a UPS to go between your computer and your generator.

Love that you are going for a combined heat and power system, even the most modern generating systems waste an enormous amount of energy by pumping it out through the exhaust gases and cooling system.

Please keep us up to date on how your build is going, good luck.

Bob


glort

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 05:23:12 PM »

Next step is to getting it running on WVO and possibly WMO/Distilled fuel oils and recover some heat for domestic hot water. Will also add a couple of auto alternators for the 12v and 24v batteries to top off what my solar panels can't keep up with.

Sound like you have a lot of interesting projects and Ideas we share a proclivity for.

I have been Running WVO in all manner of diesel engines and vehicles for 16 years next month. If I had just 10 cents for all the times I have been told it will wreck my engine or whatever I'd be commissioning Rolls Royce to build me a stretch Limo with a Diesel engine in the thing by now.

I run a couple of 12 V alternators on my roid with a serpentine belt on the flywheel and a tensioner in the middle. Works great. You could easily run a 12 and a 24V alt at the same time if you wanted. Depending on how frequent you need to run them, external staged regulators on Leece Nevile alternators can be MILES more efficient than standard car alts. The problem is not with the alts themselves that are an efficient and very robust design, it';s the cheap arse but tough and basic control/ regulation that's built in.  Wire them up and take that control externally and you can get a LOT better efficiency... For a price which may or may not be worth it for the time you run the things.

What size solar array you have and are you completely off grid or just saving on power costs?

I have distilled WVO and WMO as has a resident Genius ( whom has been unfortunately absent here of late) Ed.

I don't think you would crack any oil too well with exhaust heat.  What I found and was confirmed by Ed is you want to get it well and truly superheated.
Initially I boiled the oil(s)  and got some product. In the case of cracking Veg I got something like a waxy material when Cooled.  I was using a keg with a
short pipe fitting and a cap welded in and a 3/8 pice of copper line for the vapour Take off. I was heating with one of my waste oil burner designs and I found by looping the outpup pipe under the keg and through the fire which made it glow red hot, the output when condensed by just bubbling through water was a cross between Diesel and petrol.

Ed made like a proper distillation column and take off  something that matches the specific gravity of Diesel and something which matches petrol.

You really do want to get those temps right up there to get the most desirable output and that's going to be way above exhaust temp.  About all exhaust heat would be good for I'd suggest would be driving off the water content.... and that's not worth the effort of a seperate process.
I just bubbled through water and any water vapor re condensed as such and any fuel sat on the top then overflowed into another vessel where it could be taken from and " Bottled".  This was a very simple system that worked very well. Didn't loose any vapor at all unlike other coiled line systems I have seen that bleed off more vapour than they condense and capture as end product.

If you want to crack WMO, make sure whatever you cook it in has a large access hole so you can clean it out. WMO will leave behind about 10% ash by liquid volume.

I did write a piece on using WVO in diesel engines about a year back here.
Might be something in it if you haven't done much of it before. There are an awful lot of Myths surrounding veg like a lot of other things championed on the net. The one thing I highly reccomend and have won over a few converts of is Water injection.  It keeps all the problems of running alternate Fuel oils at bay and cleans the engines of the ash and carbon deposits that are the big risk when using them. Written a lot about that here you can read as well.

Quote
Eventually I want to build a 24v axial flux generator for my 24v battery bank

I built a 7 phase axialout of an old F&P motor many years back.  Just re wiring really. Depending on the model motor you start with, you can get from about 1.2 to 2 KW out of them depending on the setup.

Quote
I want to also convert my DIY freeze dryer to belt driven vacuum and refrigerant pump and run off the flywheels directly.

Be interested to hear more about that. I'd trying to think through a Cold storage setup for using excess solar output in summer for night time Air conditioning.

If there is anything you specifically want to know with the oils, by all means ask away. I'm thick as 2 planks but I have got a lot of experience and hands on testing with that and learned what is internet hype with this ( 90% of it) and what really works.
The basic rule of it is if anyone says it won't work  or will damage your engine,  either  they aren't doing it right, OR, typically they don't know ship from clay  and are just parroting the approved sheeple  opinion as fact.

Look forward to hearing more about your projects and ideas.

veggie

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2019, 01:25:48 AM »
Welcome Gadget,
There's a lot of info here on this forum so make use of it.
There is probably not much that you will run into that has not been discussed here at one time or another.

Veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

gadget

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2019, 06:18:26 AM »
I get about 310F on my 6/1 exhaust pipe at the outlet, I don't know if that's going to be hot enough to distill with

Are you seeing that on the outside of the exhaust pipe? Still pretty low even if it is out side pipe temp. One option could be to put the oil under a vacuum.

Hi Gadget and welcome to the forum, my first question is what country/continent do you live on?

When you say Gary, I am assuming you are referring to dieselgman. He has a lifetime of experience and my advice would be to listen to him.

A Lister/Listeroid  8/1 should provide you with many reliable years of service, provided you strip it and clean it before putting it to work, casting sand is your enemy and needs to be eradicated before it gets into your bearings and buggers them.

An ST5 head is a very reliable unit, however the build quality varies a lot between manufacturers. The first thing is to buy a unit with COPPER windings, the second is to check the quality of the bearings. The ST5 head I own, came with the worst bearings I have ever seen and the bearing housings were full of casting sand, a twenty dollar investment in decent bearings and a good clean and it will be good for ten years. The other thing is that the slip rings appear to be epoxied in place, they generally are not concentric with the shaft and need skimming on a lathe, otherwise you will get through a lot of brushes rather quickly. These units do not usually come with automatic voltage regulation, instead they have a  bridge rectifier to feed the field windings. As the current draw through the unit increases so does the current through the field windings thus regulating the generator output voltage. This is a very simple and rather antiquated system, for about $40 it is possible to buy an automatic voltage regulator that will improve the output considerably. Do not throw out the old bridge rectifier as it will get you out of the sh1t in the event of an AVR failure.

The ST heads do not produce a very clean waveform, especially when coupled to a single cylinder engine. They are very good for  standard domestic electricity supply but not so good for sensitive electronic equipment, please buy a UPS to go between your computer and your generator.

Love that you are going for a combined heat and power system, even the most modern generating systems waste an enormous amount of energy by pumping it out through the exhaust gases and cooling system.

Please keep us up to date on how your build is going, good luck.

Bob

I'm in the US and yes I am getting it from dieselgman. I am definitely going to do a full cleaning. Its delivering to work but I will take it home in pieces and assemble in place.

I remember reading about the ST bearing and something about the brushes. I will check the runout on the slip rings(good tip) Gary warned me about the waveform but I figure it would be a good start with an ST and I can find a nicer head later. Do you have any good links for getting a good regulator?

I think that going with CHP tips the scale on cost effectiveness. I will definitely post on my project(s). I am building some high temp wood burning stoves for my greenhouse and home so updates will be slow


Next step is to getting it running on WVO and possibly WMO/Distilled fuel oils and recover some heat for domestic hot water. Will also add a couple of auto alternators for the 12v and 24v batteries to top off what my solar panels can't keep up with.

Sound like you have a lot of interesting projects and Ideas we share a proclivity for.

I have been Running WVO in all manner of diesel engines and vehicles for 16 years next month. If I had just 10 cents for all the times I have been told it will wreck my engine or whatever I'd be commissioning Rolls Royce to build me a stretch Limo with a Diesel engine in the thing by now.

I run a couple of 12 V alternators on my roid with a serpentine belt on the flywheel and a tensioner in the middle. Works great. You could easily run a 12 and a 24V alt at the same time if you wanted. Depending on how frequent you need to run them, external staged regulators on Leece Nevile alternators can be MILES more efficient than standard car alts. The problem is not with the alts themselves that are an efficient and very robust design, it';s the cheap arse but tough and basic control/ regulation that's built in.  Wire them up and take that control externally and you can get a LOT better efficiency... For a price which may or may not be worth it for the time you run the things.

What size solar array you have and are you completely off grid or just saving on power costs?

I have distilled WVO and WMO as has a resident Genius ( whom has been unfortunately absent here of late) Ed.

I don't think you would crack any oil too well with exhaust heat.  What I found and was confirmed by Ed is you want to get it well and truly superheated.
Initially I boiled the oil(s)  and got some product. In the case of cracking Veg I got something like a waxy material when Cooled.  I was using a keg with a
short pipe fitting and a cap welded in and a 3/8 pice of copper line for the vapour Take off. I was heating with one of my waste oil burner designs and I found by looping the outpup pipe under the keg and through the fire which made it glow red hot, the output when condensed by just bubbling through water was a cross between Diesel and petrol.

Ed made like a proper distillation column and take off  something that matches the specific gravity of Diesel and something which matches petrol.

You really do want to get those temps right up there to get the most desirable output and that's going to be way above exhaust temp.  About all exhaust heat would be good for I'd suggest would be driving off the water content.... and that's not worth the effort of a seperate process.
I just bubbled through water and any water vapor re condensed as such and any fuel sat on the top then overflowed into another vessel where it could be taken from and " Bottled".  This was a very simple system that worked very well. Didn't loose any vapor at all unlike other coiled line systems I have seen that bleed off more vapour than they condense and capture as end product.

If you want to crack WMO, make sure whatever you cook it in has a large access hole so you can clean it out. WMO will leave behind about 10% ash by liquid volume.

I did write a piece on using WVO in diesel engines about a year back here.
Might be something in it if you haven't done much of it before. There are an awful lot of Myths surrounding veg like a lot of other things championed on the net. The one thing I highly reccomend and have won over a few converts of is Water injection.  It keeps all the problems of running alternate Fuel oils at bay and cleans the engines of the ash and carbon deposits that are the big risk when using them. Written a lot about that here you can read as well.

Quote
Eventually I want to build a 24v axial flux generator for my 24v battery bank

I built a 7 phase axialout of an old F&P motor many years back.  Just re wiring really. Depending on the model motor you start with, you can get from about 1.2 to 2 KW out of them depending on the setup.

Quote
I want to also convert my DIY freeze dryer to belt driven vacuum and refrigerant pump and run off the flywheels directly.

Be interested to hear more about that. I'd trying to think through a Cold storage setup for using excess solar output in summer for night time Air conditioning.

If there is anything you specifically want to know with the oils, by all means ask away. I'm thick as 2 planks but I have got a lot of experience and hands on testing with that and learned what is internet hype with this ( 90% of it) and what really works.
The basic rule of it is if anyone says it won't work  or will damage your engine,  either  they aren't doing it right, OR, typically they don't know ship from clay  and are just parroting the approved sheeple  opinion as fact.

Look forward to hearing more about your projects and ideas.

I ran a diesel rabbit pickup many years ago on veggie oil. It worked really well except I don't think I was filtering it or drying it enough. I actually picked up a 12v 135a Leece neville alternator free at work a couple of days ago. Someone put the wrong pulley on and damaged the shaft but I think I can turn it down on a lathe and fit a smaller pulley on it.

I have lots of questions and may start a new thread in the WMO subform. Its all pretty much about the ASH. I'm planning on using WMO when I don't have any WVO to use. This project is centered on running "free" fuel. I can get all the WMO I want. I'm hoping to secure some WVO.

It may not be practical to try and use exhaust heat for distilling, definitely not for thermal cracking. I have learned over the years with projects to weigh the work vs rewards and keep it simple.

If you want to check out my freeze dryer I did a build thread here under the user gadget. It gets good about the second and third page;
https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=234062

I am liking the ideas of a belt driven freeze dryer off the lister. If I run one batch for 5 days that is $10-12 in electricity I could save. I would set up multiple batches. It would need to run 24/7 for many days.

Welcome Gadget,
There's a lot of info here on this forum so make use of it.
There is probably not much that you will run into that has not been discussed here at one time or another.

Veggie

Thanks veggie, I have been reading allot, problem is the more I find the more questions get added to the list

glort

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2019, 07:52:41 AM »

I ran a diesel rabbit pickup many years ago on veggie oil. It worked really well except I don't think I was filtering it or drying it enough.

There was a lot of bad information on using Veg oil. I saw idiots on YT " Filtering " their oil through a perforated Cleaning cloth straight into their tank.
Can't begin to think why that didn't work!   ::)

Not many people do dry their oil but I have always held that out to be of paramount importance. There can be endless problems with wet oil  from growths in the tank, to loss of power to blocked everything and Corroded IP's and Injectors. If you tried to tell people putting Diesel in their engine that had water dissolved in it was OK they would tear you a new one. Why people think putting an alternative fuel in their engines that has water in it I'll never know!

I always have filtered my fuel to either 5 or 1 UM. Pump diesel is filtered to 10Um so my oil was twice to 10 times as clean as commercial Diesel.
I always dried the oil oil to give NO bubbles in a Hot pan test. Again I exceeded that because -MY- test was to be able to add 2-3 Drops of water to cup full of oil, stir it up and STILL have it pass the HPT.

I actually believe having Dry oil is more important than having  clean oil.

Quote
I have lots of questions and may start a new thread in the WMO subform. Its all pretty much about the ASH.

Thinking about ash stopped me from getting into the waste oil thing for some time.  I tested different things by putting them in a spoon and burning them over a blowtorch.  Diesel, Kero, Turps etc all burn with NO residue. Veg, WMO and some fats leave a residue. WMO leaves a LOT of residue.
The oils phase change though when you burn them.  First the lighter fractions burn off and you are left with a sticky black material that is like a concerntrated grease. Burn it a bit more and it hardens up and becomes carbon. Push the burn Further and it will burn like charcoal and leave a white powdery ash same as grey wood ash. My belief is that if you burn the oil completely, it turns to the talk like ash and is simply exhausted out the tail pipe.

If you don't burn it completely ( Over fuelled, late timing , poor compression etc) then you can get deposits on the rings of the piston or at the back of the valves and the engine dies.  Water injection prevents this and keeps the internals of an engine sparkling clean by effectively steam cleaning it.
Old deposits are removed, new ones are prevented from forming. With a proper set up Water injection system, a person would have to try REALLY  hard to bugger an engine up using WMO/ WVO.  WI just makes so many potential problems with running oil disappear.
You don't need anything fancy either, I diy system for $30 will work perfectly.

Ash is just not a problem I have heard of in a LOT of years playing with this. Carboning rings is a big one but if you set an engine up properly and operate it sensibly, you are most likley never to have a problem.
If You fit a WI system, you can do the same as me and break a whole bunch of rules  related to using veg oils and the vehicle won't even hiccup in the slightest. WI really is that good in this application.

 

Quote
I'm planning on using WMO when I don't have any WVO to use. This project is centered on running "free" fuel. I can get all the WMO I want. I'm hoping to secure some WVO.
 

Ed has been running " Sump gunk " for some years now and the addition of WI extended his de carbon tear downs to.... Well I can't remember him reporting having to do it for decoking since fitting the WI.  It will work successfully and long term, like anything else, just need to set it up properly.
Most people find WMO easier to get than Veg but depends where you are. Here I can get any amount I want.

Quote
It may not be practical to try and use exhaust heat for distilling, definitely not for thermal cracking. I have learned over the years with projects to weigh the work vs rewards and keep it simple.
Cracking is a considerable bit of time and effort. If you can only get really poor oil then I'd say might be worth it. Otherwise, just making sure the WMO is well filtered and completely dry should be more than enough for a Lister especially if you have WI working.

Quote
If you want to check out my freeze dryer I did a build thread here under the user gadget. It gets good about the second and third page;
https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=234062

You certainly seemed to take that further on a DIY level than had been done before.
Do you have a suitable compressor for belt driving to suit your needs.  If not, perhaps another way to look at this would be run the engine to power either a generator head or an alternator Running through a battery and an inverter. Would depend on the size of the electric motor you are running but could be a cheaper/ easier alternative if sourcing a compressor is difficult.

Quote
I am liking the ideas of a belt driven freeze dryer off the lister. If I run one batch for 5 days that is $10-12 in electricity I could save. I would set up multiple batches. It would need to run 24/7 for many days.

Solar panels may offset a good amount of your power costs and you wouldn't have to worry about finding and cleaning fuel.  You need to factor in the time/ costs into that as well and see what each approach would give/ cost you.

gadget

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 03:45:31 PM »

I ran a diesel rabbit pickup many years ago on veggie oil. It worked really well except I don't think I was filtering it or drying it enough.

There was a lot of bad information on using Veg oil. I saw idiots on YT " Filtering " their oil through a perforated Cleaning cloth straight into their tank.
Can't begin to think why that didn't work!   ::)

Not many people do dry their oil but I have always held that out to be of paramount importance. There can be endless problems with wet oil  from growths in the tank, to loss of power to blocked everything and Corroded IP's and Injectors. If you tried to tell people putting Diesel in their engine that had water dissolved in it was OK they would tear you a new one. Why people think putting an alternative fuel in their engines that has water in it I'll never know!

I always have filtered my fuel to either 5 or 1 UM. Pump diesel is filtered to 10Um so my oil was twice to 10 times as clean as commercial Diesel.
I always dried the oil oil to give NO bubbles in a Hot pan test. Again I exceeded that because -MY- test was to be able to add 2-3 Drops of water to cup full of oil, stir it up and STILL have it pass the HPT.

I actually believe having Dry oil is more important than having  clean oil.

Quote
I have lots of questions and may start a new thread in the WMO subform. Its all pretty much about the ASH.

Thinking about ash stopped me from getting into the waste oil thing for some time.  I tested different things by putting them in a spoon and burning them over a blowtorch.  Diesel, Kero, Turps etc all burn with NO residue. Veg, WMO and some fats leave a residue. WMO leaves a LOT of residue.
The oils phase change though when you burn them.  First the lighter fractions burn off and you are left with a sticky black material that is like a concerntrated grease. Burn it a bit more and it hardens up and becomes carbon. Push the burn Further and it will burn like charcoal and leave a white powdery ash same as grey wood ash. My belief is that if you burn the oil completely, it turns to the talk like ash and is simply exhausted out the tail pipe.

If you don't burn it completely ( Over fuelled, late timing , poor compression etc) then you can get deposits on the rings of the piston or at the back of the valves and the engine dies.  Water injection prevents this and keeps the internals of an engine sparkling clean by effectively steam cleaning it.
Old deposits are removed, new ones are prevented from forming. With a proper set up Water injection system, a person would have to try REALLY  hard to bugger an engine up using WMO/ WVO.  WI just makes so many potential problems with running oil disappear.
You don't need anything fancy either, I diy system for $30 will work perfectly.

Ash is just not a problem I have heard of in a LOT of years playing with this. Carboning rings is a big one but if you set an engine up properly and operate it sensibly, you are most likley never to have a problem.
If You fit a WI system, you can do the same as me and break a whole bunch of rules  related to using veg oils and the vehicle won't even hiccup in the slightest. WI really is that good in this application.

 

Quote
I'm planning on using WMO when I don't have any WVO to use. This project is centered on running "free" fuel. I can get all the WMO I want. I'm hoping to secure some WVO.
 

Ed has been running " Sump gunk " for some years now and the addition of WI extended his de carbon tear downs to.... Well I can't remember him reporting having to do it for decoking since fitting the WI.  It will work successfully and long term, like anything else, just need to set it up properly.
Most people find WMO easier to get than Veg but depends where you are. Here I can get any amount I want.

Quote
It may not be practical to try and use exhaust heat for distilling, definitely not for thermal cracking. I have learned over the years with projects to weigh the work vs rewards and keep it simple.
Cracking is a considerable bit of time and effort. If you can only get really poor oil then I'd say might be worth it. Otherwise, just making sure the WMO is well filtered and completely dry should be more than enough for a Lister especially if you have WI working.

Quote
If you want to check out my freeze dryer I did a build thread here under the user gadget. It gets good about the second and third page;
https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=234062

You certainly seemed to take that further on a DIY level than had been done before.
Do you have a suitable compressor for belt driving to suit your needs.  If not, perhaps another way to look at this would be run the engine to power either a generator head or an alternator Running through a battery and an inverter. Would depend on the size of the electric motor you are running but could be a cheaper/ easier alternative if sourcing a compressor is difficult.

Quote
I am liking the ideas of a belt driven freeze dryer off the lister. If I run one batch for 5 days that is $10-12 in electricity I could save. I would set up multiple batches. It would need to run 24/7 for many days.

Solar panels may offset a good amount of your power costs and you wouldn't have to worry about finding and cleaning fuel.  You need to factor in the time/ costs into that as well and see what each approach would give/ cost you.

I found out that the burger joint I was getting veggie oil from was dumping cleaners/water in with the waste veggie oil. I think the other thing I should of done was to wash the oil before drying. I was one of those idiots that was not doing it the right way. I was really young and just getting started in the DIY world.

It seems like the most practical ways for DIYers to clean oils is by depth filter, centrifuge and/or distillation. A centrifuge would be nice but to pricey right now so I will be filtering. I have been working on a depth filter that uses free media, probably paper or cardboard. Nice thing about cellulose is the fibers can capture some water and works really well for depth filtering.

From what I have read about ASH, motor oils very from .5% to 1% additives. It is minimal % nowadays so as to not clog catalyst and O2 sensors, a balancing act between protection and minimizing ash. Those additives primarily being metallic in nature with the bulk being in the base additives for corrosion control like zinc phosphates and detergents with lots of phosphates and sulfates. New oil has additives in the colloidal / suspended in solution size range "sub micron" and very difficult to filter out. The only additive that can be filtered is some foaming agents in the 5-10 micron range and some viscosity index improvers in the 1 micron range. So when burning oil, those metals form ceramic oxides during combustion creating abrasive ASH. So for every 100 gallons of motor oil burned, there is potentially 1 gallon of ash created. Good news is because of the very small sizer most of it should just pass through the motor due to its light weight/small size (thats my theory).

I have yet to find out reliable information if the additive package stays with the oil vapor during distillation. Did you ever try burning some NEW oil in a spoon and seeing if the metallic elements stay behind? I have read many white papers and have not been able to confirm either way.

Supposedly with used waste oil, some of those additives come out of suspension and bond with contaminants into larger pieces that can easily be filtered out. If they are not filtered and are combusted they form larger pieces of ash(?) that can cause lots of abrasion.  The other metals from engine wear also need to be filtered out. Aluminum wear particles can form into aluminum oxide during combustion, very abrasive stuff.

It sounds like filtering waste oils to sub micron may make it safe enough to burn them. Like you said, water injection is key along with keeping the larger then 1 micron metallics filtered out. I have still not found any long term reports from any lister users that are filtering sub micron and have run for years. I do know that it is very common in poor countries burning waste oil in slow speed diesels.

Of course there is also the corrosive issue to deal and I haven't gone down that road yet.

You got me thinking it may just be easier to keep my freezer dryer electric and supplement the solar with the lister. My 24v system has 1800w in panels and a very large battery bank. The biggest energy use I have is the vacuum pump. It uses about 750 watts and the compressor about 1/10 of that. I already have a very nice welch duo belt driven vacuum pump. I can get an automotive ac compressor for free that would work for the belt drive. My biggest concern would be running the lister unattended for hours on end when no one was home. I'm not sure if that is a good idea or not yet. Of course either way there is mechanical things running 24/7.



gadget

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2019, 03:52:51 AM »
Christmas came early this year. Wife says this is my presents for the next 5 years.

Engine was exactly what I expected from reading about them. I found some sand right away just by pocking around the crankcase with my pocket knife while still  in the crate.


Took a quick peak at the the cylinder head because I was curious about doing some port work. Definitely going to do some work there. Worst port I have ever seen. That frown face looks like it was a long trip from India


I ended up swapping the ST head for a Stamford clone. I'm very grateful to Gary for doing that for me since it was already on the pallet.  After much reading I am very glad I did. I want to focus on getting the motor blue printed and thought a turn key gen head would be better. The more I read about the ST problems the less the price difference bothered me. Plus I want a good clean waveform and I like the idea of no brushes. It looks really well built from the outside. Its way over rated but they don't make anything much smaller.

ajaffa1

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2019, 12:04:32 PM »
Hi Gagget and congratulations on your recent acquisitions. You are a lucky man to have such an understanding Wife, I would be tempted to do a deal with her, for every power outage where she is still able enjoy the the luxury of electricity you get one xmas present back.

My Wife is slightly less understanding and believes that I am a deluded old fool living in my own little world! At the end of this month she is going to New Zealand with her Brother for ten days, while she is away I intend to build the new shed for my Lister CS. Once that is done I will have to move the CS into position and commission it.

Casting sand has always been the problem with Indian Listeroid engines, I have even found some in my original Lister CS. Get it stripped down and clean everything until it shines. Glyptal or equivalent treatment to all internal surfaces

Perhaps we can share our experiences and post a lot of photos of how to do it/not do it for the benefit of members.

Bob

gadget

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2019, 01:49:07 PM »
Hi Gagget and congratulations on your recent acquisitions. You are a lucky man to have such an understanding Wife, I would be tempted to do a deal with her, for every power outage where she is still able enjoy the the luxury of electricity you get one xmas present back.

My Wife is slightly less understanding and believes that I am a deluded old fool living in my own little world! At the end of this month she is going to New Zealand with her Brother for ten days, while she is away I intend to build the new shed for my Lister CS. Once that is done I will have to move the CS into position and commission it.

Casting sand has always been the problem with Indian Listeroid engines, I have even found some in my original Lister CS. Get it stripped down and clean everything until it shines. Glyptal or equivalent treatment to all internal surfaces

Perhaps we can share our experiences and post a lot of photos of how to do it/not do it for the benefit of members.

Bob

Yes I have an amazing wife. She loves my projects. I only build things that benefits my family in some way or another. She is a prepper so that goes along way. Good luck with the shed build. Did you just build up your motor? How did it go?

I can deal with casting sand. I just hope to get good usable castings all around. Do most just clean out the crankcase and paint over the outer factory paint? I was thinking of stripping everything down to bare metal but I'm kinda scared of what I may find LOL. I noticed allot of bondo but they put it on so poorly I think it might look nicer if I stripped it with some paint remover. I like the idea of coating the inside of the crankcase. I have no doubt these castings can weep oil. I've seen it on cars before.

I asked my kids what color we should paint it and my daughter has requested pink. She assures me it will look very nice. Has anyone done a barbie theme yet?

I am planning on doing a build thread with lots of pictures. I have done many build threads in the past. I'm doing one right now on a wood heater for my green house here;

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3552/el-tornado-experimental-build-thread

It has to get done before I can really get going on my motor cause winter is coming fast.

-Gadget



mikenash

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2019, 07:34:00 PM »
Hi there

I’m looking forward to watching the build with interesr

FWIW if you’re looking at cleaning up the ports & bluprinting the motor - I guess you’re doing that for your own satisfaction?  I would think these old air-gulper engines would resist “tuning” to quite a degree?  There will be experts here who will know

Interesting project Cheers

Hugh Conway

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2019, 11:27:49 PM »
@ Gadget
If you're doing it for fun, by all means try the tuning and blueprinting. IMH0, removing the sand and just reassembling "in the ballpark" is sufficient to produce a reliable engine. Our 6/1 is a daily driver used for battery charging when there is insufficient solar input for our off-grid system. I cleaned out the crud and reassembled taking note of things like ring gap, bump clearance, TRB preload, injector timing, but not much else. I was fortunate in that the balance is not too bad, so never tried to improve that. This listeroid drives a PMG and can manage a 4000W output......it is working hard at that load, usually we run at a bit below 3000W. Been doing it for years.
There was quite a thread several years back (I think lost now) regarding porting. Just for interest, I reduced the 1.5"D intake
down to .75"........made no difference, it could still put out 2800W.
I'm no expert, but can provide some real world experience.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

gadget

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #13 on: Today at 12:46:27 AM »
To be honest, I was using that term loosely since I don't have the measuring tools to do a full blue print. It is comforting to hear that they are not that bad from India as I thought. The crank moved very smoothly on the one I have. I blue printed a Toyota 2LT diesel once but that was in a machine shop with all the tools.

Here is what I am thinking cause I do want it up and running sooner rather than later,

Clean out the crankcase and paint
Balance the flywheels to each other and the keyway
Balance out as much bounce if needed
clean up fuel lines
check valves for seal (brake clean method)
port heads (more on this below)
set timing( not sure best method for this yet)
Fix slop in idler gear(its pretty wobbly and lots of back lash in some positions)
round out cooling port on head and add thermostat
Check rings end cap
maybe check bearing clearances with plastic gauge
Something to do with the gaskets between the block and cylinder????
What else am I missing?

I ported cylinder heads for a living many moons ago for a very well know company that sold turn key heads out of hot rod magazines.I  have a very vast knowledge base in this area. I can tell you there should be some good gains, at least with the head I got. There is chunks of casting protruding into the port about 3/8". To be honest probably doesn't matter much to most setups but I am at 4,400 feet and am looking to help make up for my altitude. I would be happy with a 10% increase or atleast make up for the elevation here.

You all have giving me encouragement. I was mentally ready for worst case scenario to get this thing going.

Hugh Conway

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Re: After waiting 10 years, finally putting together an 8/1
« Reply #14 on: Today at 01:19:29 AM »
@ Gadget
You're gonna enjoy all this. Even with the little that I have done, it was fun. Perhaps I would have done a little more, but I had to get it into service asap. I do have a bit of envy for those guys who have the knowledge and wherewithal to do a really good machine shop job. I have a collection of hammers and files..........
My machine runs in what's basically an open shed, and it is too far from the house to be useful for hot water, etc.
I look forward to seeing your posts/pictures. BTW you are up in the air at 4400 ft! We're not too far from sea level and sea edge here.
Cheers
Hugh
Oh, "Something to do with the gaskets between the block and cylinder?"......that'd be the bump clearance. It is fairly important, but easy to set up. Just put a bunch of cyl base gaskets in place, then remove as necessary to achieve the correct clearance. I think 38AC has a good thread on this somewhere.
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project