Author Topic: Roid Bearing Quality?  (Read 661 times)

StrawHat

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Roid Bearing Quality?
« on: August 18, 2019, 06:38:39 AM »
Since a lot of the Listeroids use tapered bearings, who makes these bearings? The steel quality, heat treat, and grinding will have a huge impact on lifespan. I can't see Timken quality coming out of a India bearing factory. It's possible that an old fashion babbit bearing fed by an oil pump would outlast a bad quality splash lubricated tapered bearing. In reality, in a splash system like that, both the mains and the rod bearings would need to be high quality USA made roller bearings to outlast those old time tested oil pump fed plain bearings.

BruceM

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 08:05:09 AM »
The TRB's in the Listeriods have not had a single reported failure in the 10 years or so I've been following the related forum(s).  My own 6/1 Listeroid (a 2008 vintage Metro) had casting sand hidden in a lump of black grease under the crown of the piston; intentional sabotage, apparently. It took me a while an a half dozen bearing shells to find.  Despite this, the TRB's are still in service 3000+ hrs later.  It's pretty clear the TRB's are not of Rajkot manufacture.
There are plenty of quality issues with Rajkot CS Clones and Listeroids, but the TRB's of the Listeroids aren't one of them.

38ac

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 11:52:42 PM »
 As Bruce said I don't recall any TRB main failures being reported here, never seen a bad one in the shop.  Matter of fact I have only experienced worn out mains once and that was on a Lister 6/1 CS.  None the less if one frets the India TrBs are set of Timkins or similar quality is not a whole lot of money.
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StrawHat

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 06:42:28 AM »
Well, glad to hear at least one brand of roid is using professionally manufactured bearings. What about the rest? Are they using split cranks so rolling element bearings can be used on the rod bearing as well as the mains? I would hate to have a splash lubricated sleeve type rod bearing in a unit with tapered bearing mains. The mains would last a long time but the rod bearings would be a definite weak link. I would like to know more about some of these Lister "copy" engines before thinking about getting one.

38ac

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 10:58:50 AM »
 The big end of the rod uses the same split babbit bearing.that was user in the CS lister. 
India engines very in detail from heavily modified and simplified to exact copies or as some of us say, clones.
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BruceM

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 03:00:10 PM »
The concept of "brands" is pretty meaningless for all the roids/clones made in Rajkot.  Parts are made in the same small shops, and assemblers then put various labels on them.  Quality varies wildly for all.  It seems to be all paid per piece work, so some days anything goes. It's not typical India, it's something Rajkot is infamous for in India, according to a native that reported here.  With skill, patience and some rework, a good engine can be built or a CS restored with their parts. A machine shop will often be needed for some rework.

If you can't find a Lister CS, and can accept the parts cost and rebuild labor as part of the deal, they aren't a bad kit of parts.  It helps to buy from a reputable dealer like Diesel Electric Services, as if you do get an part that can't be used, Gary has spares and will ship in a day. I have no connection, just experience helping with my neighbor's DES 8/1.  I give DES a five of five star rating, and I'm not "easy". If buying a used 'roid or clone, set your price assuming you will find a major part that must be replaced (even a cylinder head) and then hope to get lucky.

During the heyday of the Listeroids, before the EPA banned them, some US sellers were touting their brand(s) and suggesting that total tear downs weren't necessary. It was wishful thinking. No one was successful in getting Rajkot to make consistent upgrades to their normal wild variation in quality, from container to next container, despite a great deal of skill, time and effort in trying to work with them. 

I have a 'roid myself, with only splash lube, missing two head bolts, no lower sump or oil pump, plus a cylinder liner.  I don't mind any of those mods, they are all OK as far as service life of the engine. Parts are commonly available.  My neighbor's is a clone.  Some extra plumbing and an oil pump to fiddle with but some real value in having it be a true CS in terms of parts way, way down the road.  In the used market I'd not turn my nose up at either Listeroid, or Clone, but would have preferred a Lister.  I just couldn't find one in my part of the country.













« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:12:07 PM by BruceM »

ajaffa1

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 10:27:00 AM »
Hi Guys, sorry to have been away for a while. I have a Cooper petrol engine in my shed, it has taper roller bearings (Timkin 412/414) the bearing on the output/drive belt end has failed. It is most unusual for taper bearings to fail, I suspect that the belt tension was excessive causing a lateral load that resulted in the bearing failure. The replacement cost for an original bearing and cup are exorbitant (circa $400 each). I will probably have to machine out the bearing housings to take the next nearest metric taper bearings. I will also have to turn up some bushes to expand the size of the crankshaft main journals.

I would not be concerned about a low RPM engine with TRBs, I would however be very careful about getting the end float correct by adding or removing shims/gaskets to manufacturers specifications. You should also check that the big end is centered bellow the cylinder.

Bob

glort

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 01:17:15 PM »

$400 ea?

Do they also fit railway Carriages?
Maybe you could find a cross reference with some more common types, that is ridiculous!

My roid has TRB's. The seals on the thing squeeked for some hours when i first ran it. had to spay them with WD about every 10 Min. Oil didn't seem to get in.

ajaffa1

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 12:04:46 PM »
Hi Glort, yes they want that sort of money. These bearings are imperial sizes and no longer manufactured, SKF bearings still manufacture a 414 taper bearing cup but not the 1 and 9/16 inch bore taper bearing race. I will be going to visit a friend of mine in Grafton next week, he thinks that the Moffat Virtue engine of the same period had the same bearings and he has a yard full of defunct engines. I`m hoping I can find a suitable old bearing race if not, I am back to machining the housings to take more modern metric cups and taper bearings.

After lunch yesterday, the postman arrived with a Lucas RS1 magneto for this Cooper engine. I bought it on fleabay for $35 including postage. It was advertised as incomplete and I thought it was worth a punt rather than coughing up ten times that for a reconditioned unit. It was incomplete but only missing a few screws, insulating washers and a cover plate for the points. A day later it now looks good and kicks out a serious spark, my fingers are still stinging from the first output that occurred when I was tightening up the screws on the Bakelite distributor cover. It still has the original magneto coil/points and condenser made in the 1950`s, very impressed that it made my hair stand on end after all these years. I will probably replace the old condenser and points and try to remagnetize the rotor but if it ain`t broke no point in trying to fix it!

I`ll try to post some before and after pics tomorrow.

Bob


glort

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 01:21:23 PM »

Good to hear about the magneto.
I picked up a bunch of Maggys from aircraft years back that had done their hours and were being sent  back for overhaul. Always thought they would make very good replacements for old engines in a Pinch. 

Willw

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Daily driver '97 GMC W4 tipper on WVO/Kerosene mix.
6/1 clone standby generator.
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38ac

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 05:03:38 PM »
Just a little helpful Timken bearing information.
Timken sold tapered roller bearings either as individual cups(aka races) and cones (aka bearings) or as sets of both. Sets carried thier own part numbers that do not coenside with the cup or cone numbers. Also their are sets that contain cups and cones that are not available as separate pieces for a variety or reasons.  Some have special I.D. some have special O.D. some have special fit to give "X" distance between the back of the cone and the front of the cup.
Thus the suggested 414 set does not contain a 414 cone and it is possible that Bob's combww2ination of parts could have only been sold as a set. Somewhere I have a complete catalog that would give Bob the answer but could not lay my fingers on it this AM :(
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ajaffa1

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 10:41:17 AM »
Thanks guys, I have been researching the replacement bearing issue. Having spoken to a number of bearing suppliers they all confirm the cost of a Timken 412/422 bearing at around $350 plus postage. This is much more than I paid for the engine and more than I am willing to spend on it.

Today I purchased a pair of NTN 32210 taper bearings for around $40 each. These are a metric bearing with a 50 mm internal diameter and a 90 mm outside diameter. I will have to bore out the bearing housings by 1.5 mm and turn up some bushes to take the existing crankshaft from 1 9/16 inches to 50 mm. I will also have to place some shims behind the bearings to ensure that the crankshaft end float is within tolerance. I will try to post some pictures of the lathe work and assembly as I go.

I might have to start a new thread showing how this work is done, don`t want AdeV chasing me down for going off topic!  :laugh:

Bob

glort

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2019, 11:02:25 AM »

Is there anything special about these bearings that justifies that price?

The ones will linked to were 412's and were 14 Bux.  Were they not right?

Seems extraordinary for some taper bearings that are a normal sort of size. For that money, I'd be wanting them to be loaded in the back of the ute on a pallet by a forklift.
Pity there is nothing similar in Holden or ford wheel bearings. Would be cheap as Chips.

My father buys a lot of bearings for  Cam belt tensioners.  Replacements on the rollers are almost $200. He had a tool made  for $50  that pushes out the old bearing and  seats the new ones to the correct depth.  I think the bearing themselves he gets by the box for $12 ea.
Got himself a reputation now for selling these reco idlers cheap and sells a good amount of the things very regularly. He does them in batches when he doesn't feel up to doing anything else and makes good money on them

I laugh every time he picks up a tensioner or that tool. He looks at it with such fondness and admiration and repeats for the 1000th time, that tool was the best $50 he EVER spent.   :laugh:

Lucky you have the skills to do the modifications yourself Bob.  A dollar saved is worth at least $1.33 earned depending on which tax bracket you are in!   :laugh:

ajaffa1

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Re: Roid Bearing Quality?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 12:03:04 PM »
Hi Glort, I`m guessing that the excessive cost of these bearings is that they are a 1940/50 design so are no longer manufactured, if they are still made it will be small batch production with excessive production costs.

Isn`t it a shame that old stuff is valuable but old people are considered a liability.

Your Dad has the right idea, $50 investment to return $12 a thousand times, that is a nice little earner! I am glad that he is still using it and enjoying it.

Yes I still have the skills to do this sort of work, trouble is I no longer have the eyesight to read the instruments, guess we will have to hope it works out OK.

Bob