Author Topic: compression/gasket/something = not firing up  (Read 473 times)

tyssniffen

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compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« on: July 19, 2019, 03:29:14 AM »
So, after attempting to deal with my big carbon build up after a couple hundred hours on WVO without a good water intake system, I've now purchased the new gasket and am trying to get it all back together and running.

I put the new gasket in, got everything cranked down tight, and no go.  When I pull the valve-holder, I can keep cranking past what would should stop it if it didn't fire up. 

So I pulled off the head again and what I think I see is fuel going beyond the ring. Image here:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--b5nWvvF8UU/XTEn7ej9EtI/AAAAAAAASJc/VVr3eGT9SsIbteoh5DAKuG7GQ_5SfM-XgCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_2329.JPG

you can also kind of see it on the gasket and under the gasket in this image:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BuopP7dTblw/XTEn7AvW2YI/AAAAAAAASJY/OG-PSibxj9M446Nq9e-NieJ5c56VHUG4wCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_2331.JPG

That would indicate the gasket not working right, correct? 

Did I put it in wrong? Am I supposed to use some other goop as well?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? 






glort

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 04:58:01 AM »

Did you do the Valves and lap them then check for leaks?

Did you do the base gasket?

Did you check the valve clearances and adjust them so they aren't hanging open when the engine is on  compression?

Torque the head bolts town with a torque wrench to the correct settings?

Were the studs taken out and if so were they re seated correctly so you didn't run out of thread?

As always, more info would be helpful.

sirpedrosa

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2019, 10:01:34 AM »
Hi Tyssniffen

This head gasket is a little strange for this cylinder. It is plugging the cooling channels of the cylinder.

Is that really so? Or are you putting a 6-bolt head gasket into a 4-bolt cylinder?

The torque wrench is extremely important, as said by Glort.

BR
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38ac

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 11:29:07 AM »
Hard to tell from the photos but it appears that you have the gasket with all 4 of the stud holes enlarged for the 2 OEM Lister alignment bushings? Those are an attempt at making the gasket idiot proof on a CS but cause problems on India 5 stud engines without the guides. Look closely at your second picture lower left side of the fire ring, you can see where it is not compressed. Also check the head surface to see if it is flat. If you have a lot of liner protrusion and the head was pulled down tight on a soft India gasket it will not be flat and that also causes problems with that style head gasket. Also be certain that you have tbe correct gasket for your cylinder size.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 11:32:55 AM by 38ac »
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ajaffa1

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2019, 11:47:28 AM »
Hi Tyssniffen, I to have concerns about your choice of gasket. please see the attached photo of a proper Lister/Listeroid gasket. My concern is not that your gasket will leak but is in regards to the bump setting. For a diesel engine to cause ignition by compression alone it is essential that the gap between the piston and cylinder head be correct at top dead center(Bump setting)

If your new gasket is of a different thickness to the original, the bump setting will be incorrect, if it is too thin then you will have excessive compression and damage your big end bearing/piston/small end bush and possibly your valves; If it is too thick then you will have insufficient compression to light off the fuel. Bump clearance is adjusted by adding or removing shims at the bottom of the cylinder.

I would firstly check that the new gasket you have is compatible (I have doubts), once you have confirmed that you are happy with your new head gasket check the bump clearance, this is done by cutting two pieces of identical length solder or plastigauge,
Place them on top of the piston, either side, as close as you can get them to directly above the gudgeon pin/wrist pin. Now torque down your head and crank the engine over. Remove the cylinder head and measure the thickness of the now compressed solder/plastigauge. You need to be aiming for between 45 and 50 thousands of an inch. Personally I would aim for 50 thou and re torque the head after a few hours, this is likely to bring the bump down a little as the new head gasket beds in.

Bob

glort

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2019, 11:57:51 AM »

That gasket isn't in place is it?
I thought it was just sat there for the pic?

ajaffa1

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2019, 12:15:42 PM »
No Buddy, it`s just sat on my dewalt saw out feed table, glad I had one in stock to show him what he should have.

Bob

glort

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2019, 12:43:09 PM »

Haha, No I meant the one on the OP's Pic.
Nothing lines up. The water passage holes are half blocked and the gasket isn't sitting in line with the bore. I thought it had just been placed there backwards for the picture.  On closer look it appears to be on the studs but I thought it was sat there reversed.

OP, that's NOT the way the gasket was installed and in position is it??   :o

ajaffa1

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2019, 01:34:06 PM »
Pretty sure it`s the wrong gasket and that it won`t end well but what do I know.

Bob

veggie

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 02:36:53 PM »
Regardless of the gasket, if you had good compression when you cranked it over, the unit should have fired up.
Heating may have been a problem later if the water passages were blocked by an incorrect gasket. But with compression, the unit should have run.
You say you were running WVO before...
One issue that I and others have encountered when running wvo is a sticking throttle slider in the injector pump.
The WVO oxidizes while the engine is sitting for a while. I sets up like glue with a gummy film that prevents easy sliding of the throttle assembly. AND it can also block the fuel line. All depends on the quality of the wvo and how oxidized it is in the first place. Took me a long time to clean that out using zylene.
Check to see if that may be your reason for not running.
WVO is a great fuel but you have to be aware of how your unique collected oil reacts in your system.
I'm not saying that this is the problem with your machine, but it is possible, so check that out.
Break the fuel line at the injector and crank it over. See if there is fuel spitting from the injector line into a rag.
If not, work you way back. Break the connection between the fuel filter and the Injector Pump to see if fuel is flowing the the pump.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 04:40:15 PM by veggie »
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tyssniffen

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 05:15:57 PM »
Thank you for all the replies.   Answers:

So, yes, that was the gasket sitting on the block.   maybe it's the wrong gasket, simple as that.   I had the original copper gasket in there before, and then bought this:

"Lister CS Diesel Engine 5/1 6/1 8/1 Composite Head Gasket 10.6544"    from DP Equipment, which I believe I got as a suggestion in another post. 

Is that not the right kind?   I agree that the water holes and the gasket don't line up perfectly, but I figured that it wouldn't impede flow.  Now, if it's TOO THICK, that's another thing, and I didn't know they came in different thicknesses. Do they?


Did you do the Valves and lap them then check for leaks?

no.

Did you do the base gasket?

no. I left what was there.

Did you check the valve clearances and adjust them so they aren't hanging open when the engine is on  compression?

yes.

Torque the head bolts town with a torque wrench to the correct settings?

yes.

Were the studs taken out and if so were they re seated correctly so you didn't run out of thread?

no, they weren't taken out. still have thread.

FUEL Questions: No, I don't have a sticky throttle.  I've always started and stopped on regular diesel, and that's what I'm using now.  But thank you for asking, as anything is possible.

38ac

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 06:46:50 PM »
That there is fuel pushed out past the fire ring would indicate  compression leakage there. . that being said 5 minutes of diagnostics by you is far better than guesses by all of us. Put it back together,  turn the engine over and LISTEN for the air leak as you bring it up on compression. Listen at both ports, near the head gasket and at the water ports. If you can't hear find somebody that can or spray some soapy water around the gasket joint and look for bubbles. Listeroids with excess liner protrusion seal much better with the OEM type copper sandwich gasket
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veggie

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 02:30:45 PM »
tyssniffen,

The holes in the head gasket do not have to line up perfectly with those in the block/head.
As long as they are not blocked.
AND ... as long as your gasket has openings for ALL the holes in your block.
Some passages can be slightly restricted by a poorly made gasket, but passages must not be blocked by a gasket that does not have a hole corresponding to each passage in the block/head.
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tyssniffen

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2019, 05:02:42 PM »
Listeroids with excess liner protrusion seal much better with the OEM type copper sandwich gasket

Thanks.  1, I don't really think I have 'liner protrusion'... but maybe I don't know. we're talking about the liner.. the ring .. around the cylinder coming up above the plane of the block?   

But, more important, if the fancy gasket company I was directed to and bought from previously is the wrong place to get get the right gasket, where does one buy those copper sandwich types?

Tys

38ac

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Re: compression/gasket/something = not firing up
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2019, 09:19:47 PM »
Depends on where you are located. At least 3 sources here in the states. Stationary Engine parts in England.  Couple places in Oz.
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