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Author Topic: oil sump intake screen blockage  (Read 633 times)

Hugh Conway

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oil sump intake screen blockage
« on: July 17, 2019, 08:54:18 PM »
I was changing oil at 1850 hours a few days ago, and removed the sump oil intake screen to clean it.
I had only removed it once before on the initial cleaning/reassembly.

On inspection, there appeared to be something  INSIDE the screen that would not wash out.
The foreign object could move from one end of the screen to the other and was nearly the ID of the screen.
When shaken, it moved from mid-screen to the threaded end, made of steel (not brass) in this listeroid. I had to use a rod to dislodge it from the threaded end, pushing it back into the screen.
The object was larger in diameter than the threaded end, so could not be removed. Whatever it was, how did it get in there?

I cut the end off the screen to get this thing out and discovered it was a magnet, cylindrical and with tapered rounded ends and shaped like a large very smooth rat turd. I suppose it seemed like a good idea to the manufacturers, but it could very easily migrate to the threaded end of the screen assy and effectively shut off oil flow. Sure glad it did not! With the magnet/oil shut off valve removed, I re-closed and re-installed the intake screen thinking I had dodged a very large bullet!

I had early on put a couple of magnets in the sump, so this OEM one now sits on my shop window sill as a reminder that with a listeroid, ANYTHING is possible!
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

glort

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2019, 11:53:37 PM »

I find magnets in engines to be of little value.
Most engines have little Ferrous material in them to start with, mainly rings and bore.  The particles that come off them is very, VERY fine and anything under about 7 UM according to tests I have read don't matter because they will fit between clearances with room to spare anyway.

If an engine has a couple of thou wear, it's pretty much buggered and needs a rebore , new bearings etc.  That amount of wear would normally occur over 10's of oil changes so the amount of material that could be in each oil change would be minimal. Many engines have filters or ways of catching the particles and holding them for later removal.

Magnets don't catch material from bearing surfaces which a lot of particles will come from as it  is non ferrous.
Up till now I would have said a magnet probably can't hurt if it does not help, but that's been shown here to be wrong. Is there anything on a good original design on these engines the Indians can't Fu... Bugger up?

In gearboxes and Diffs, I have seen where magnets can pull a lot of material from these components, especially when they are new.  I have also see magnetic sump plugs from modern car engines which reaffirms my not worth the trouble position on them.

Bit like when people in the veg Game used to obsessively Centrifuge their oil/ Fuel to sub micron levels though when pump diesel is only Filtered to 10 UM and that's only what most OEM fuel filters were rated to anyway because anything smaller would pass right through pumps and injectors without problem.

Magnet in the pickup probably seemed like a good idea or was responding to a customer request but the possible side effects were not thought through  very well.

I remember back in the early '90s the best selling car here at the time had a GM V6 3.8 L engine fitted.  They had a small pickup  screen about the size of half a Golf  ball.  The screens were notorious for blocking and starving the engines for oil.  First it was thought to be lack of regular oil changed but that turned out not to frequently be the case.
People( Not naming my wife) would see the oil light come on and of course as is human Nature, just want to drive the thing home. She...... errr, THEY, of course never made it.
They eventually went back to the wide, flatter pickup design pickup with a screen area about the size of a large tea cup rim.

ajaffa1

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2019, 11:51:35 AM »
My first car was a Mini, it had a magnet that was built into the sump oil drain plug, at every oil change I would wipe off a tiny amount of very fine steel dust. I suspect that for every gram that got captured by the magnet there were ten grams captured by the oil filter.

If I was going to fit a magnet in a lister/listeroid I would be attaching it to the sump drain plug, this won`t tell you what is going on but will give you an indication if you are experiencing an increase in wear between oil changes.

Bob

glort

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2019, 12:14:33 PM »

Had a lucky escape today.
Was hauling loads of weight around on my IBC trailer and noticed the tractor mower sounded a bit " Tinny".
Checked the oil and it was just on the dipstick.  Topped it up and thing went back to normal.

I was surprised, engine runs really well, doesn't blow smoke and stays clean with no leaks.  I am good on oil with things and frequently check it and this doesn't get used that much.
Must have been working it harder than I thought.

The ironically named " Tuff Torque" transaxle is slipping bad so I yanked that out this afternoon and I'll give that a going through.
Strangely, this one didn't have a magnet in it but there is a filter.
I'll bet that is putrid and costs about $40 for something about a 10th the size of a car filter.

Hugh Conway

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2019, 05:34:53 PM »
Apparently I did not make myself clear enough in the original post. My intention was to alert listeroid owners of a potential blockage in the oil intake screen caused by a well-intentioned placement (by the manufacturer) of a magnet inside of said screen. The magnet could easily migrate and cause a total blockage of the oil intake pipe. Might be worth a check on your engine.
The efficacy if a sump magnet was not the subject.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

miniman82

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2019, 06:56:27 PM »
My first car was a Mini, it had a magnet that was built into the sump oil drain plug, at every oil change I would wipe off a tiny amount of very fine steel dust. I suspect that for every gram that got captured by the magnet there were ten grams captured by the oil filter.

And that's just the ferrous stuff.

The main problem is the gearbox shares the same oil as the engine, so each time you shift gears the syncro rings wear just a little and that material also goes through the engine bearings and is NOT picked up by the magnets. I'm not messing around with my A-series this time around, I have a washable main filter with built in magnets, magnetic drain plugs, and an inline magnetic particle trap that was designed for hydraulic systems. Hope the thing lasts, it's in my '72 Innocenti Mini.

38ac

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2019, 10:04:27 PM »
Somebody on here once said that the only thing consistent with Listeroids is they are inconsistent. I have seen all manner of screens on the oil pickups, most of them junk but never a magnet inside of one.
Add it to the long list of reasons to  tear down a Listeroid before using it. To correct poor assembly if for no other reason.
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BruceM

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2019, 11:22:49 PM »
Hugh's surprising magnet warning is the first time anyone has reported finding a magnet behind the oil screen on this forum or microcogen.  "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Thoreau  An interesting philosophy for engine manufacturing.









oldgoat

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2019, 02:18:49 PM »
The ironically named " Tuff Torque" transaxle is slipping bad so I yanked that out this afternoon and I'll give that a going through.

Thats strange normally they have 2 magnets in them 1 in the bottom of the case and 1 in the plastic  filler plug. Replacement recomended oil is 5w-40 synthetic.

glort

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2019, 04:19:34 PM »

Definitely no magnets in there but it could have been gone through before but it looked OEM to me.
5-40 was what I had on had so it got a good drink of that.

When I was putting it back together I realised that what I thought were tabs for the bolts to spread the force were in fact the mounting points that had been on the frame. They had clearly cracked and broken off a long time before I got the machine. I realised then that the hardware store looking brackets were in fact that and had been added on obviously to keep the arse end in the thing. Wasn't hard at all to weld the tabs back on with an extra bit of re enforcement to make the thing stronger than it was new.... which obviously wasn't strong enough.

Got it all back together and fired it up letting the engine warm up and the oil circulate before I tried moving it.
The thing started to roll back as I reached for something on the ground. Instinctively I slammed my foot on the brake pedal and missed and hit the drive pedal instead.
The thing reared up in a wheelie and took off up the yard.  I nearly shit myself! The thing hauls arse now. SO much power it never had before.
Had my doubts if what I did was right but have to call that a success!

I went for a lap of the place and took it down the front  where the land slopes up steeply from the footpath to the level of my yard. I gave it some moderate pedal and the thing gracefully lifted the front wheels and pulled this long gentle wheelie all the way up the slope and gently touched the front down and proceeded.  I'm going to have to fit wheelie bars to the thing. It would rare up a bit when I was pulling the plough I made before.  Now I'll never keep the front down to steer it. 

The only downside was the reverse pedal is virtually non functional now. The transaxle had been mounted leaning forward and when I put it back in position the adjustment is way out. Seeing that linkage was the most frustrating part of the job, I'm not going back there again. I discovered that If I LIFT the go pedal instead of pressing it, I get reverse... which is just as fast as forward.  I have been riding bikes and up shifting since I was 5 years old, not going to worry me on the mower tractor.

Really pleased how this turned out. may blow itseff up at any time now but it will be a fun ride and do the work I want till that happens!!

38ac

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 06:43:45 PM »
 Oops wrong topic
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 06:45:43 PM by 38ac »
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38ac

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 06:58:03 PM »
Apparently I did not make myself clear enough in the original post.
.
The efficacy if a sump magnet was not the subject.
Cheers,
Hugh

The entire universe is prim and proper subject material for any topic on any forum on this site.
Think of it as a chat room or a ladies circle meeting and you will learn how to get along with it ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hugh Conway

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 10:41:51 PM »
Thanks Butch
I forgot!  :-X  ;)
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

glort

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 01:51:56 AM »

The entire universe is prim and proper subject material for any topic on any forum on this site.
Think of it as a chat room or a ladies circle meeting and you will learn how to get along with it ;D ;D ;D ;D

Seems as if the Forum continues happily along like that and there has only been one person complain about it that I have seen.
The activity here would be very minimal if everything was strictly "on topic" and I believe would actually lead to less still site specific conversation. There aren't that many people interested in this stuff now to begin with and reducing the traffic to what would probably be a handful of specific posts a week I doubt would do much for the sites longevity.

The Microgen site had a topic zealous moderator and pretty clear to see how that worked out and rather quickly.

I'd say given the way a lot of forums are going, all participation is good participation particularly with a limited interest subject like this site address. 

38ac

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Re: oil sump intake screen blockage
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2019, 02:44:11 AM »
 ,,and once more you have to put words in my mouth in an effort make your point.  Talk about anything you want, I could care less. The site has even provided a place to do it. My point continues to be why must every topic turned into a
 free for all when space has been provided for it? Why have
 20 forums? Why have a general discussion forum?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 02:47:20 AM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel