Dc motor/generator

[mobile_bob]

Dennis:

if i couldnt recover a battery that i knew had lots of life left in it, because of my letting it sit, then yes i would try just about anything
but i would be surprised if after the conventional recovery methods these other methods work as advertised,,, but yes then and only then would i try it.

as far as spending my money and time trying to recover batteries that i didnt know anything about, i wouldnt.  basically i wouldn't spend anytime trying to recover a
dead 10 year battery that was in service for 12 years., unless..

it was a 4000 amp/hr set, and i figured to only need a small fraction of the capacity anyway, and it was free,  then heck ya,,, and it was a hobby, rather than a mission critical or truely offgrid project. then i might try dog biscuits groundup and dumped in the cells if i thought there was a remote possibility it would bring back some life.

remember though my concerns are different from others, in that i am going to mars! 
so i will buy the best batteries i can get, treat them properly, maintain them properly, and charge them properly
and no i won't be taking any EDTA with me

but that is me,,,

now then if anyone can provide me with a university study on the use of EDTA in a controlled and proper double blind test, that clearly shows an
advantage in using it, then i am all ears (or rather eyes, gotta read it)

bob g

as for nickle iron cells, yes very long life indeed, but poor efficiency something on the order of 60% give or take, so one has to factor that in as well.

[bitsnpieces1]

http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/electrics/elc_edta.html
http://www.deathstar.org/~flash/edta.html
and:
http://www.homepower.com/files/edta.pdf#search=%22EDTA%20battery%22

[dkwflight]

Hi
I know that we have taken this thread far astray, But that is why this site holds my interest

The last link postd is the entire article. Thanks

Remember Battery makers are interested in selling batteries for profit and to further their business. I don't think they are too interested in getting more life from a battery.
Dennis

[mobile_bob]

"Remember Battery makers are interested in selling batteries for profit and to further their business. I don't think they are too interested in getting more life from a battery.
Dennis"

i dont subscribe to this at all, the battery industy is so highly competitive that everyone of them would be using edta on failed cells rather than warranty them, and likely would be using it from the git go, if it worked and...

why do automanufactures recommend synthetic oils to extend your engine life? they are only interested in selling more cars right?

it dont wash period, so far no sound evidence, no double blind test, no independant labs nada, zilch, zero.

in Richard Perez's article in homepower, he qualifies his finding as it "may" have worked, "looks" like it "maybe" worked, but alludes to the fact the sample size is too small

also bare in mind these batteries were only a couple of years old, and the first and only method to recover them was with solar, that was cut off a 15volts.
no mention of dump and drain before hand on the solar charge, but they did dump and drain on the edta method.

in my opinion of the three articles Richard carries the most weight, albeit not very much.

the first article is so heavily laced with "may" "maybe" and "likely" that it is laughable,  and their explanation of the battery operation is just not fact, most especially as it relates to sulfation.  this is a typical regurgitation of an old edta add in the back of a magazine.

the second example is just part of the first,,,

there has got to be a better and more pursuasive case to be made for the use of this stuff in good batteries,
notwithstanding the possibility of it "maybe" being useful to salvage young but abused batteries

bob g

[Tom]

I can offer some positive, not quite, anecdotal evidence for the electronic desulfators. I used to have a good friend that lived on my ranch for a while and he worked for Home Power Magazine. He was given some neglected 12V 60 AH AGM batteries and put them on the charger for 2 months and they would not take a charge. Then he took a desulfator and put on 1 battery and left the other on the charger as it had been.

The battery that was on the charger with the desulfator started taking a charge after a couple of days and after a couple of weeks on the desulfator he load tested it at 90% of rated amp hours. I used that battery in my RV trailer for years after that. So they do work.

Don gave me a desulfator with a nice 20 watt panel that came with the instructions to mount it on all kinds of military vehicles BIG BIG ones. So they seem to think desuflators work.

Finally I have taken my desulfator and rotated around the batteries on my vehicles and I am now getting about 5 years of use of a battery instead of the 2 I was getting. I have also used it on a set of 4 L16's for many years and they are still going strong.

Unfortunately my friend Don is not still going strong as he passed away a few years ago from Diabetes.

[mobile_bob]

Tom:

i am sorry to hear about the passing of your friend, i know that is tough

thank you for your report on desulfators, i wonder though if part or all of your success is based on more careful
charging with the desulfators vs. the never pay attention till they fail approach most of us get lulled into.

i would like to believe these things work, and maybe they do on some batteries, i just wish there was a test facility somewhere
unrelated to an edta or desulfator sales company that could do some definitive testing.

from everything i have read, including reports from Sandia labs, they dont work as well as reported, if at all.

it would be interesting if a large user of batteries ran some side by side tests on three groups of batteries of the same type, capacity, loading , age etc.
one following a careful charging routine, with proper maintenance, and
the other following a the same procedure but with the use of a desulfator
the last one being a group with the same procedure as #1 but with EDTA

like i said i would like to believe in this stuff, as i am contemplating a very expensive set of rolls/surrette batteries.

no one including me wants to get anything less than the absolute maximum life out of their batteries

having said that i am concerned with putting anything into my cells that is not approved and proven to work, and perhaps more important, proven not to adversely effect the cells.  There are reports stating that there is a concern about damage to cells or wear on the plates, using either EDTA or desulfators.

perhaps the only way to know for sure is to install the batteries, charge and care for them properly and when they get to the end of their useful life, try some of these other scheme/technologies.

i just don't want to get roped into a fuel line magnet mileage thing, that has any possibility of damaging or shortening the life of my cells.

bob g

[bitsnpieces1]

  Yes it would be nice to have results from an independent, highly respected lab.  Galileo didn't have any, doesn't mean he was wrong. 
  The Wright Brothers planes didn't work very well and nowhere near as well as a modern 747. 
  Maximum life, yes, but how about that set of industrial batteries someone  got for free because they didn't meet brand new specs and were being replaced?
 Like you say the only way to tell is to GO AHEAD AND DO IT, not wonder or complain that there's no hard proof.   
  The fuel line magnets are based solely on someones word, with absolutely no proof of any kind.  At least we have SOME evidence of these working. 
  No ones asking you to do all this on your brand new set of batteries or any of your batteries.  Just please don't tell us that we are idiots for even thinking it might work.  DaVinci appears to have designed the first helicopter.  Just because he couldn't get one to work doesn't mean that it was an idea that was never going to work. 
  Lastly, whatever was Rudolf thinking about when he had the audacity to claim that an engine would actually run without a spark to set the fuel on fire?  Therefore, all CI diesel engines are figments of our imaginations since Rudolf had no absolute independently certified proof they would work before he built the first one. 

[mobile_bob]

Bits:

quite a bold jump you have made, i will endevour to answer some of your concerns.

first of all i never called anyone an idiot for using anything, i just question its use, and if that makes you or anyone else feel like an "idiot" then that is your problem.

if something is reported to work it should stand up to scrutiny, should it not?

how do you scrutinize? unless you ask questions!

the attachment of folks like the wright bros. galileao, divinci, and rudolf, to your arguement really has no bearing on the disussion and gives no validity to the
claim that desulfators either chemical of electrical work or don't work.

i have never said, that one should not use desulfators, what i did say was perhaps more common methods should be used first, then when all else fails use whatever you like.  i also said that i would use a ground up dog biscuit if i thought it might work.

on the issue that no one told me to use it on my new batteries, you are right no one here did, but the EDTA folks recommend its use in new batteries! Funny how no one else does!

oh yes,, and lastly lets look at your apples to concrete block comparison of rudy and his diesel vs EDTA

Rudy built an engine, it could be observed to not only run, but do useful work,,,,,,  by everyone! in every instance, any where, any time!

Unlike EDTA, which might do the job, sometimes, for some folks, with some batteries with some success.

NOW FOR THE FINALLY,, PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY!

if i brought home a huge battery that had been scrapped, and i couldnt get it to work using conventional means, I WOULD USE EDTA AND/OR A DESULFATOR, WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO LOSE,,,, nothing but my time.

if i messed up my high dollar batteries, i would follow recommended procedures to try and recover them, failing that,  I WOULD USE EDTA AND/OR A DESULFATOR, WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO LOSE,,,, nothing but my time.

if however my high dollar batteries are functioning normally, as expected, no fucking way i am going to use EDTA or a desulfator on them , until
i see a report from a lab that backs up their claims.

would you add EDTA to a 4,000 dollar battery bank from the git go, as advertised by the suppliers of this stuff? or would you routinely use a desulfator on them?  or would you follow what 100 years of science has taught us about these flooded cells?

if so you are either,  1. very rich and can afford to experiment on someone elses claims,  2. misinformed,  3. a gambler, or 4. convinced by solid research that they work, or
5. (failing all the previous reasons,) an idiot.

i hope i have made my position clear.

bob g

[mobile_bob]

ok that was a bit harsh,,,

would like to edit #5

if you fail to meet the prior 4, then perhaps you, maybe, quite possibly, under some circumstance, when all else fails, by anecdotal evidence, be an idiot

lol,,,,  its a joke,,," please don't anyone think i am calling you an idiot"



bob g

[slowspeed1953]

Bob, your being a hater again.

Peace&Love , Darren

[mobile_bob]

Darren:

sorry buddy, couldnt help myself



bob g

[bitsnpieces1]

quote::  first of all i never called anyone an idiot for using anything,
  No, but you sure make me feel like you THINK I am one. 

1) Put it in a new battery system? The choice  of the person that spent the money.  I might very well try it on my new mower battery. 
2) Ask questions, yes, put it down because no one can give an immediate answer, no.
3) The various exaples are of things that had no proof whatever that they would work BEFORE they were actually built and shown to work.
  How did Rudolf convince someone to spend the money to build an engine that had never been built before and couldn't be SHOWN to run.  After it's built and runs sure, it's hard to deny the existence of a hammer after you've been hit in the head with it,   but what about before.  In this case no one has shown the EDTA to work, so, do we give up on it until somebody else proves it or try it ourselves.  Trust or belief.

quote: mobile bob,;   if i brought home a huge battery that had been scrapped, and i couldnt get it to work using conventional means, I WOULD USE EDTA AND/OR A DESULFATOR, WHAT WOULD I HAVE TO LOSE,,,, nothing but my time.  unquote.   

   Exactly the point lets try an old battery first.  Maybe we'll come up with proof for everybody else. 


  Quote:  mobile bob:  would you add EDTA to a 4,000 dollar battery bank from the git go, as advertised by the suppliers of this stuff? or would you routinely use a desulfator on them?  or would you follow what 100 years of science has taught us about these flooded cells?     
 No, Maybe?, Of course.    However, I have several batteries at each stage of decay to play with.  Also, you don't have to trust the BUSINESS SELLERS, go to the chemists of the world, or battery rebuilders. 

how about #6, I'm not rich by any means, but, I sure do love to experiment.  Einstein didn't spend a penny getting his brain to think about relativity, he did it in his spare time and so far it appears to be true.  I have plenty of time to think, that helps to sort out what to spend money on. 

NOW,  I don't mean to put you off just please don't put me off.  We're here to DISCUSS things not throttle them.  I for one DO read what you say.  I do the "Devils Advocate" thing to myself all the time. 

[mobile_bob]

Bits:

my apologies to you and anyone else that may have been made to feel stupid by me.

that was never my intent, but rather get a good and well supported discussion, in other words cut thru the bullshit.

EDTA is nothing new, it has been marketed for at least the last 50 years as a cure all, and it may very well be! i don't know and so far i havent been able to find anyone else that know's for sure (that isn't selling the stuff).

sometimes hard questions have to be asked to put those that support a position into a corner so they actually have to prove out their claims, otherwise i could very well give you a ground up dog biscuit in a little vial and claim it to not only fix your battery, but impotence as well.

of course then again the ground up dog biscuit just might work!!! lol

again i am sorry if i made you feel uncomfortable, or made you think , that i thought you were less than intelligent.

fair enough?

bob g

[bitsnpieces1]

  Fair enough. 

  I don't believe ANYTHING is a cure-all.  We just need to find the right people to question.  I would say that it's pretty much a given that you would want to think long and hard before using it on a new battery.  But, you could try it on an old battery to see what you could make it do.  Perhaps a 5 yr battery at 4 1/5 yrs that you're planning to raplace anyway, and see how long it goes for after that.    Aalso, the chemistry says that it will remove lead from the plates and reduce the design lifetime.  Chemistry also says it should be a scrubbing clean type of action.  I would have no cumpunctions about dissecting a battery to see what's happening. 
  I have a riding mower with a bad cell that I think I'll try it in.  I also have a 1982 Datsun 210 with a 5 yr battery going on 8 yrs that's getting weak.  { I haven't driven it much the last 2 yrs and it has gone dead a couple of times.}

  So, a question;  if it has been around a while and isn't in use that much:  Why?  Does it not work at all?  Is it too hard to use?  Does management/engineering figure it's not worth bothering with or workers aren't smart enough to use it?  BOTH of the foregoing I have had to deal with working for Municipalities.  " It's not my money, spend all you want too.  Just make ABSOLUTELY SURE that it won't embarrass [/u]me[/u]."   Right now my bet is that the money suppliers don't feel that it is worth bothering with, unless somebody can prove [with reliable sources that will get them off the hook] that they can save money and get another raise.  Our higher level managers' raises are based on a percentage of just how much they can avoid spending from the current budget and how much they can reduce the next years budget from what is projected. 

[slowspeed1953]

Bits:

my apologies to you and anyone else that may have been made to feel stupid by me.

that was never my intent, but rather get a good and well supported discussion, in other words cut thru the bullshit.

EDTA is nothing new, it has been marketed for at least the last 50 years as a cure all, and it may very well be! i don't know and so far i havent been able to find anyone else that know's for sure (that isn't selling the stuff).

sometimes hard questions have to be asked to put those that support a position into a corner so they actually have to prove out their claims, otherwise i could very well give you a ground up dog biscuit in a little vial and claim it to not only fix your battery, but impotence as well.

of course then again the ground up dog biscuit just might work!!! lol

again i am sorry if i made you feel uncomfortable, or made you think , that i thought you were less than intelligent.

fair enough?

bob g

Bob, your sometimes devils advocate bend really does bring a needed element of reality to the threads so dont be sorry.

I think when people get their man panties in a bunch is when that peticular bend gets to strong of a pessimistic undertone.

So in other words thank you for your usually wise input on many different realms of gearheadedness just try to remember to stay a lilttle shiny when the topics/ideas get dull to you.

Peace&Love , Darren