Author Topic: New Watercooled Diesel Toys and energy efficent homes.  (Read 1907 times)

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2019, 07:29:04 PM »
Great custom portable design, XYZer.  Nice looking welds, too.

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2019, 11:15:27 PM »

That is a great setup XYZ!
Seeing how nicely that sits I think I might put mine on wheels now.  Would make it easier to move which I know I'll want to do at some point and would allow me to make the mountings in steel and still have great Vibration suppression.

I was also thinking to add a 12/ 24V alternator and now I know how to do it. I have a couple of serpentine Belts that are way too long for just the engine / motor but will be good with the alt and I have a tensioner as well. All painfully obvious when you see it but I don't have the smarts to work it out even though I did something similar with my roid.  Glad you showed me that now instead of seeing it when I was done with what I had in mind. I would not have been happy. It will save a LOT of mucking round with adjustable motor mounts by having the belt tensioner and worth the cost of the serpentines.

Looks like the new welder will come in handy.

Thanks again for the heads up. Great help and inspiration. Between you and Bob I feel much more enthused about this and does not seem like such hard work anymore.... Sitting here at least! :0)

Tanman

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2019, 10:34:13 PM »
Maybe you could throw one of these on your new toy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhG6qqh2ooQ
Yanmar L100-5KW set
Chinese 1115-8KW stamford
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2019, 11:42:45 PM »
Loving that recoil starter, do they make them in different sizes for larger/smaller engines?

Bob

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2019, 01:23:15 AM »

I have seen that before but just seeing it again now I have experience with those engines made me realise something...

He's starting that without the Decompressor.  That thing must have a HUGE amount of grunt to do that!  The electric starter on mine won't do it from a standing start, you have to let it get some momentum on the decomp and then drop it and it will wind it through once it has some inertia. When I crank it by hand I can't spin it hard enough to get it through more than one compression cycle and the thing hits TDC and stops dead. Never found any problem cranking the roid but the the Kubota is a beast and a half.

Love the look of that shop though.  Man they have some nice looking stuff there including what looks like a 4 or 6 Cyl inline engine.  And I'll bet where it is which I'm guessing Thailand, even my Aussie devalued Peso's would make stuff there wonderfully cheap.
Of course the excess baggage charges on the way home may even things up a bit though.  I could probably pay them $10 extra to break everything down to 20Kg packages and just post it home.

I believe I have found a 10 Kw Gen head.  Not celebrating just yet as I have had too many things go south buying online but I remain hopeful I'll be able to get it next week. Only a single phase but given how long I have been searching I think I'll take it. Won't power the 3 phase AC or the 2 Phase stove but other than that.
Will leave me in a Quandry though.
Do I set up with the Induction motor so I can backfeed easy and have a somewhat touchy stand alone generator, Do I have a stable stand alone generator that will be touchy and difficult to back feed with, Do I set up for both, ( that's going to be a lump and a half)  Or do I set up 2 engines with a head each? Might be a bit overkill even for me. I should look up Syncing regular generators a bit more. I know it can be done but the methods I have seen for doing it so far look somewhat Dodgy.

Going the 2 heads on one engine would cause extra wasted drag but I wonder how much? Sure would have some reactive power though the extra rotating mass. I would probably also need some sort of belt tensioning system so I can slack the belt to start the engine  and then pull it in once running.  Asking the starter to turn 2 extra substantial Loads seems a sure way to a fast end for the thing. Then again, With the engine decompressed......  :-\

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2019, 09:48:37 AM »
Once again we find ourselves in the same boat, with too many options available. I am reasonably certain that I now have enough generating power to be completely off grid, while still being able to run my house and all the machinery in my shed. The one thing I am missing is battery storage.

I would love to be completely independent of the flakey/expensive electrical distribution system but my Wife is dead set against it. I am hoping that by installing sufficient home battery storage/solar/generating capacity that I will be able to export all of our present grid tied solar generated electricity to the grid to bring my electricity bill down to zero.

The biggest problem with my plan is the cost of deep cycle batteries. I have more than enough roof space to fit solar panels to charge them and more than enough generators to keep us going in the event of a battery storage problem. I would love to have a three phase and a single phase off grid inverter in place, giving me options on machine tooling and etc.

I am presently trying to design a floor slab and shed to accommodate all of this equipment, not an easy thing to do when you don`t know exactly what you are trying to achieve.

Bob

dieselspanner

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2019, 11:47:59 AM »
Yes there are other starters of a similar nature, I can't remember much about it but I worked on a Deutz engine that was designed to be air portable, without any electrics, and drive an experimental pontoon / bridging set.

It looked like a starter motor and fitted in the same location, you wound it up in the same manner. but with a 1/2" drive ratchet, as I remember, and then let in go, I think it engaged with a bendix. The bosses son over wound one and it exploded like a hand grenade.

Bob, I've spent most of my life without knowing what I was trying to achieve, good, innit!

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2019, 01:22:27 PM »

Bob,

I am yet to discover a way of making power cheaper than you can get it from the grid.  As well as batteries for going off grid you would need an inverter and charger or a unit like a PIP that will do both.
If you are on grid, I firmly believe the cheapest option is to minimise your consumption with solar. As far as I can see, the minute you go to batteries, you are behind the 8 ball.  Yes, I too have ready the reports and testimonials of people that installed batteries and said they were in front in 3 years and I do not believe them one bit. I have seen all sorts of equations to make batteries look like they repay themselves and they are all convoluted and basically flawed.

If you have an analogue Meter(s) you are laughing. You can simply plug in a regular GTI to a circuit on each phase and wind your meter back during the day  and use the " Credit" at night.  NO, it is not actually Illegal that I have seen, it's not actually covered. the worst they could do is install smart meters that won't accept feedback.

If you have to go to batteries, then the best alternative I have seen is forklift packs.  Good old fashioned lead acids  that weigh a ton, aren't particularly compact but are Cheap ( as far as batteries go) dependable, give great life with a bit of Maintenance and are a proven commodity. I have seen people whine about the maintence online.  That amounts to monthly checking and keeping the water topped up which may be weekly. There are auto watering system that can do that for you so you only have to top up the resivour as needed.

Inverters are coming down in price and the Chinese stuff is getting great reviews.
This https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5000w-Hybrid-Solar-inverter-48v-230vac-PV-input-900v-Grid-tied-solar-off-grid/132705076281?epid=10026513497&hash=item1ee5d6c439:g:9lwAAOSw0-BbESEO&frcectupt=true Inverter does 5 Kw and is a 100A charger as well and can be grid tied.
There are a LOT of selectable options in the menus so you can Customise them to do a lot of things. Don't know anything about this inverter, just showing as an example of the many ones available now. Anything in 3 phase gets exy real fast.

People often ask me why I don't have batteries and the reason is I have it good as it will ever get with the ability to do without them and reqind my meters.  When they are replaced as will happen, My plan is to have a small legit system installed.  I will get approval for 10 KW but only install  3 or 5 or whatever  is most economical.  That will give me the feedback ability and I can run my present systems and inverters to make  a decent FIT. That will offset the power I use, hopefully to as little as possible.  I have enquired about this and been told it's not exactly Kosher but is widely done as far as the approval for the larger system goes. The reason to do it that way is so you don't raise flags when you are certified for a 3Kw system and they see you are feeding back 10.  They will never question under rating but they do over rating.

There is a lot to this and it's a very situation specific thing as to which way to go.  What some people seem to overlook is that sometimes the cheapest option is to stick with paying the power bill. Not what we want to do but looking at it objectively, it's frequently the most cost effective solution.
If you can stay grid connected and Minimise your power useage WITHOUT batteries, particularly if your consumption is low to start, then that's often the best thing. As far as I can see, at this point in time batterys are best avoided for the associated cost reasons.

If you have a low bill of say $3-400  a quarter, that's going to take a good while just to recoup if you go batterys.  If you say halve that with panels  and maybe have the Hot water sunning off solar even if that is off grid, one may be well better off.  the lower your bill the less there is to save in the first place and the longer the (fixed) battery costs are going to take to recoup.

I think it pays to crunch a lot of numbers and look at your bill as well.
On another thread I was talking about powering the water heater from solar.  there are a lot of devices to do that, the cheapest I know of is over $300. Most are around double that with a lot being over $1000.
If one looks at their bill and sees their off peak is costing say $60 a quarter which is reasonable for a Couple who don't shower long, then that investment in the diverter is going to take a fair while to pay off. You then have to look at it and say what is the expected Longevity of said unit?

This is where batterys suck the big one. I have yet to see a battery pack that realistically would last long enough to save enough power costs over it's life to offset it's cost. The general consensus is pretty much world wide, battery's would have to come down by 75%  to make them a Viable and sensible financial investment.  Panels however can pay off in anything from 2-4 years on average.

If I can help you with any of my useless knowledge I'd be more than happy to.  It's a fast changing playing field but I do have a grasp of the local situation.  If your goal is to save Money, and I mean in the big, long term real world picture, I would suggest for all but a very narrow margin of people, batterys are at this time best avoided.  If you want to use them for other reasons, then the Forklift packs are definitely the way I'd go and I have looked at all the systems I can find.

I would also strongly suggest to stay clear of the different new versions of water or flow type batteries.  Seems they come and go like japanese car models. From what I have seen so far, they have all fallen well short of promises and expectations.
I am also suspect of the lithium's in various flavours.  Some of these home batteries are made from the same battery as in your laptop computer.  I have never had batteries in a laptop last more than a few years before they seriously degrade capacity.  No laptop I ever had would cycle the batterys daily like in a home battery so i'm wondering how these same cells are going to last 10 years in a home battery? The other thing is they are changing these battery chemistys every month virtually so in reality, who really know how any one of them will hold up in practice?

The one that is known and proven in it's various flavours is the good old lead acid.
Long as you have the space and don't need to mount them on the wall, they are the best bang for the buck I can see.

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2019, 05:02:50 PM »
Glort's right about batteries, and for now, avoiding them.  Sad that wet lead should still (100 years!)  be the most cost effective battery for stationary power, but it is, and by a large margin.

A look at ongoing battery replacement cost should be a huge driver for super insulated off grid homes, but in my very rural area, it's not.  People just can't grok it, and don't want to deal with the 3rd rate builders in the very rural SW. Instead they get a manufactured home and then find their AC eats batteries in no time, their PV and battery system is inadequate, and their propane bills in winter are huge.  They go through the first set of batteries in 1 year, and that provides motivation.  Then they switch to a evaporative cooler and other power conservation measures.  Typically their battery bill is pretty painful, replacing 8 or 16 Trojan L16's (400ah) every 4 years, at $380 each plus tax and freight.  Battery replacement cost of $100 to 150 month is common.  They are energy independent but now battery dependent.

Building codes need to change, big time, and manufactured housing needs even bigger changes.  My work with thermal modeling showed that a very well insulated slab, thicker than usual, was hugely helpful thermal mass for my SW high desert climate, when coupled with Canadian style double framed walls (R40) and raised heel trusses (R80).  My next step is water cooling of the house though the in-floor pex system, which I keep stalling on.

My battery replacement cost is $15 a month, plus $15 a month for refrigerator propane for my larger sized propane refrigerator.  By not having an electric refrigerator, and no 24/7 inverter losses, my DOD is only 10%, and cheap marine batteries do the job nicely. Heating is solar hot water and cooling I open windows at night.  Works well except for periods of wildfires, when I can't open up, though I haven't gotten over 78F yet this year despite a lot of wildfires.






glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2019, 03:08:07 AM »

There would be a BIG problem with your ideas on properly insulated homes here Bruce.
While I fully agree with what you are saying, I can see the big obstacle. Here homes new or old are a stretch to breaking point for people to afford, Even a professional working couple earning good money.

There is huge building projects going on round here and you are right in that people get often the cheapest or most well featured luxury wise home they can afford and that's it. The building regulations specify basic insulation and things like a 500L water tank which few people ever seem to use anyway and they squeeze into their cardboard boxes and every 2nd resident has a story of how lucky they were to get what they got.

The great majority of new homes in the wider Sydney area wouldn't have a hope in hell of being off Grid.  the land size is down to sub 300M Sq which is smaller than the footprint of my home  and they tend to be double story and a LOT of duplexes. As such the roof area and design is such that they would be lucky to fit 6 Panels  on the roof and ZERO attention is given to orientation of homes and snything to do with shading for summer or warming for winter.

I have been to a LOT of home shows and Show home villages over the last couple of years and I can only remember a couple of half hatched energy saving products and NOTHING from home builders.  Here anything energy efficient is architect designed and looked at as a bit " Fringe"  or eccentric.
Building something energy efficient would absolutely be well out the range of first home buyers just for the land required alone. in anywhere near suburbia you'd have to be buying a double block which is automatically $1M + or an acerage.  The ones down the road from me which are the last in the area which is on the very edge of the city are presently going for $1.2 M  Add a minimum for a standard project home of $500 K and a house with good insulation and efficiency is going to go  closer to $2m than anything else.  A couple of Lawers, Doctors or any other decent earning professional couple is going to be stretched to breaking point to pay that off and the average earners haven't got a chance past about $700K which barely scrapes them into the shoe box with the cardboard walls as they virtually have now.

I have looked at how they build houses now. I have no doubts I could demolish one to sit it on the ground with my bare hands and a good pair of boots in 3 days. And I really think I could probably do it in one long as it wasn't brick..... which most of them are not.

The real problem comes back to the people screwing the prices up to breaking point. The gubbermint on a range of levels  from taxes  to having a level of Immigration that means there aren't enough places ( or jobs) to go round for a start, to the fees and levys they put on developers, the average $60-80K+ Stamp duty one has to pay to buy a home to the profiteering by developers and builders in the industry whom are building rubbish to start with.  Rubbish so bad that we are having multiple cases of Buildings 1-10 Yo cracking up so bad they are being evacuated.

A lot of these new homes will be lucky to make 30-40 years old I reckon. 100 yo homes will be the ones that are 50-60 Yo or more now.
Everything is about price now. The message of efficiency would be lost on 98% of new / first home buyers because they just want a roof over their heads and any new roof is a win. On the established market, I looked for 2 years and I -think- there was one place that had some better than average insulation and double glazing but that was about it. I was looking in the $1.5M range as well not the bottom of the barrel. Even at that pricepoint, you are not exactly looking at mansions here. Important things are Ceasarstone benchtops, the quality of the taps and fittings, the pool or spa, the light fittings, how many shitters in the place and and the single glazed bay windows.
Upgrading a place as I discovered is basicaly impractical and if you did spend the considerable cash, I really doubt you would get any sort of return on the investment when you sold and you'd have to be buying at 18 and selling when you were 60 to recover the investment.

I was at the plumbing supplies a while back and saw they were doing away with the metal gal pipe. I asked why when it was no more exy than the plastic crap they are well into now. I was told because it's so much faster to install, just clicks or crimps together.  Something I said and was told it should last 20 years.  Say what?? So in 25 years tops I'll have had to rip all the walls out the house to replace the probably burst plumbing? are you for real.
20 yo houses aren't the builders problem which shows the attitude.

And we think houses should be insulated better?

Not a hope in hell here my friend!

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2019, 04:52:08 AM »
I understand the cost, which is why the codes must change.  In truth, the cost can be near neutral, as big savings in heating and cooling plants can be had.  If your heating and cooling needs 1/6 the BTU's or less, it doesn't take much.  And you can save on windows, as large expanses of glass are a thermal disaster. 

Superinsulation via double wall is way cheaper than thick foam cladding.

No hope for affordable housing in Sydney, it's getting like San Franciso, property wise. 

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2019, 09:49:22 AM »
Hi Guys, when I was building new houses in the UK it was almost impossible to keep up with the ever changing building regulations. It got to the point where I would demand the local council put in writing the regulations on the day I commenced construction, I would then build to that code. I had no end of run ins with building inspectors who turned up and told me that what I was doing was now against the law. I enjoyed handing them of a copy of the regs at the time of commencement of construction and telling them to Foxtrot Oscar.

I am appalled at the poor quality of Australian house construction, I suspect that Glort is right that the land values and government taxes have left the builders with no choice but to throw up the cheapest boxes they can, otherwise they would be unaffordable to any but the wealthiest Australians.

Perhaps Australian planners need to follow the UK example and specify that a certain percentage of new city houses be built to satisfy the demand from essential workers, policemen/nurses/sewage workers/taxi drivers and etc. Non of which could possibly afford to own their home otherwise. I would love to be involved in building/designing mews housing that would accommodate a lot of hard working poorly paid people at a price they could afford. Insulation against heat and cold would be the top priority.

The problem is that the government make a huge amount of money from taxation on energy for heating/cooling so they have no incentive to improve things. It`s a f*cked up world!

Bob




glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2019, 04:28:55 PM »
The problem is that the government make a huge amount of money from taxation on energy for heating/cooling so they have no incentive to improve things.

That is ( as usual) a very insightful point Bob.
They also make money, more money, the higher the price of the home in stamp duty.  The recently ended housing boom in Syd and Melbourne is known to have landed the Gubbermints a huge windfall through the astronomical amounts of stamp duty they got which has funded a great many projects.
It's the same thing as why the whole renewable energy idea is a farce. The gubbermint make billions a year from fuel excises ( the many of them) they money with GST on the price of electricity and from the power co's in tax as well. The past thing they want is people like you and I minimising or eliminating our power bills because thee is no revenue in that.

The clean green idea is all well and good up to them loosing money and then the environment can take a flying just because it's always profit and revenue above and beyond all else.

Another problem with the unavoidability of new and established homes is that it turns in to unaffordability and unobtainability of rental places.
I have been looking at investment properties in Sydney.  I'd be lucky to get anything worthwhile under $700K  and rent it out for $500 a week.  When you put in your initial stamp duty and associated fees you are well north of 780  then you have yearly rates to pay, agents fees for collecting your money and have to insure the property and meet any maintenance expenses.  You might be lucky and get 3% on your money with a lot of risk.
For that I can do term investments, blue chip shares  or just buy land and make more money. 

Of course on the other side of the coin, $500 a week is a big chunk out of a non professionals wage to be paying in rent every week and that's more on the low side than the high  for Sydney Melb and bris now.  I never had to pay rent I was fortunate enough to always live in my own home and even though wages were less, I don't think I ever even paid the equivalent of that in mortgages.
When I bought my second home I only had to mortgage half of the purchase price and I still owned my first home and that got me a better interest as well.  Kinda arse about really, the more you have and the less you need money from the bank the more easily and cheaper they will give it to you.

I went to a 21st dinner tonight for a beautiful and elegant young lady I have known since before she went to school. A highly intelligent girl that used to sit and talk to my son about real estate  when she was 16. She was talking to me tonight about how she would like to take her life to the next stage and move into a place of her own but had deep reservation if that was the smart thing.  Just having graduated Uni and with a very decent job for her age, even sharing a place would put a huge dent in her ability to save  for a deposit on a place of her own.

It's a quandary. Does she do the adult thing and move out all but guaranteeing a much longer and harder road to owning a place of her own or stay at home and get a bit more of a slingshot start when she does leave.  I reminded her how much her family loved her and how much my family love  her and that if she had to move out of home, there was a spare bedroom here that was hers anytime she cared to move in.

When I have my little daydreams of winning Lotto and what I would do with the money, one of the very first thoughts I have is setting her and her brother whom has been a part of our family like a second son, up with a home of their own and a trust fund of some sort. I think of the difference that would make to their lives and their happiness. Instead of slogging their guts out to pay a 30 year mortgage they would have so much less stress and strain in their lives and could enjoy themselves so much more. Wouldn't be a matter of spoiling them rather than just sparing a couple of very deserving kids so much pressure and sleepless nights we have all suffered and giving them a life they could enjoy instead of a life fighting to survive.

For investment's I can do better in country areas where the houses are cheaper and 10% rents can be realised,but there is also low rental demand.  The money is good, -IF- you can get it. Every chance your house may sit unrented for a long time between tenants.

Even if as Bruce suggests the cost of a better insulated home may be no more, I see an apathy in the industry that would still want to build the easiest, fastest way possible and has no motivation to do anything better. They can sell whatever shit sandwich without the bread they can knock together, no need to stand out from the crowd what so ever.

Better building regulations would force their hands but it's pretty clear  for the most part, the industry owns those supposed to Govern them in here the same as in many other industrys where the industry controls the regulators rather than the other way round.

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2019, 02:40:23 PM »
I have thought for years that any new properties being built should be carbon neutral and be built with an expected life of at least one hundred years. I am not talking about the energy that goes into building a house, just the energy it consumes during it`s life time. There are numerous examples of houses around the world that actually export energy, while being perfectly comfortable for the occupants. If we can send people into space with temperatures approaching zero Kelvin is it too much to ask that our own homes are warm in winter, cool in summer and cheap to run?

In Australia this would be easiest achieved by building homes partially or wholly underground. this would produce a home with an ambient temperature of between 17 and 20 celcius, it would take no energy to cool these homes in summer and very little energy to keep them warm in winter. A few solar panels would be adequate to make these homes extremely comfortable.

Perhaps the easiest and cheapest ways to build these homes would be to build them on sloping ground, dig about half of the home into the ground and then use the spoil to bury the other half of the home. This approach would have one other benefit in that it would stop developers building on flood plains, leaving the fertile flood plains to farmers.

My local town, Grafton, is one such area in which the town center is built below the levies, in the event of severe flooding it will be several meters underwater, the insurance claims if it flooded would certainly be half a billion or more. We have seen exactly this played out in Townsville and Lismore in recent times. These towns/cities were built where they are because they needed river access to import/export goods. This is no longer the case, move the people out of harms way into the foot hills with a beautiful view of the productive and fertile flood plains below and let the farmers do what they do best.

Rant over for now,

Bob

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2019, 05:12:38 PM »
I looked into earth sheltered for my off grid home- not so cheap insulation, as it turns out, nor easy to build without having mold and ventilation issues.  Here the stable earth temperature (63F) is down at 12 foot depth. I only have 4-5 foot of dirt on top of sandstone. Just adding insulation, and having the slab fully insulated as valuable thermal mass was the best bang for the buck, for my climate/location.  I bumped the slab thickness to 5.5 inches and used 5/8 sheetrock to boost interior mass on the cheap. 

Every region has it's own resources (such as  ground water) and earth temperature... pity we've made so little effort to use them wisely.