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Author Topic: New Watercooled Diesel Toys  (Read 708 times)

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2019, 04:40:43 PM »
Here also, a vertical west facing array for summer 3-7pm would be a plus for electric cooking. 
Both my neighbor and I find that appealing. 

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2019, 02:44:49 AM »

I was hoping that would be the case with having original engines. Quality over price...for once.
I am also hoping if i need any parts, particularly if i need to rebuild or repair the older looking engine,they are interchangeable with the chinese made parts. Ill have to look into it as im not sure if the chinese engines are kubota or Yanmar copies.

I was thinking of running a belt over the flywheel to drive alternators but the clearance around the cowl looks thin.
Have to look closer after a workout with a chainsaw and a log splitter.

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2019, 02:51:01 AM »
Here also, a vertical west facing array for summer 3-7pm would be a plus for electric cooking. 


I do have some shading from a neighbours tree behind me which is west but fortunately it is very late in the day and the loss is minimal. There is a tree in my own yard which i need to lop which is getting too tall and starting to shade the house.
Trees and houses dont mix well especially with solar.

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2019, 08:46:20 AM »

Finally had a chance to play with the new toys at home today.  Left Dad's at 6:30 last night after dinner and was back home by 11 so back to the world.

Took me a while to unload the engines as I had to dig the crane out behind all the other engines and motors and move them by hand. I sure would like a little forklift!

I put some legs on the good engine utilising some double Unistrut pieces I piked up a while back which were precisely the right length.
Took a bit to fire the thing up though. The electrics are not working, there is a very corroded and Dry 12 Pin plug which I suspect is stopping the push button party.  I got some battery leads, ( luck I stocked up last trip and bolted them to the starter and a ground.

First attempt at starting was by Cranking. This will also be the last attempt at starting by Cranking.  Anyone that thinks a lister takes some effort ought to try one of these things! I have no problem with the roid but I put plenty of back into spinning this thing up and it just stopped when it hit compression.
Next!

Wound it up on my little jump starter pack which had trouble winding it through compression so went and got  a decent N70 battery and put it on that.
Wound it up quite a bit and could see Diesel Vapour out the exhaust but no signs of life.  This thing has compression for days! I know diesels are high but this thing is solid.  After some cranking and Fiddling with no joy, I got the can of mower petrol, put some in the cap and threw it down the intake of the oil bath aircleaner.  Wound it over a Bit On the decompression lever, Dropped it and it went straight into life.

Nice sounding engine but the Noise all coes as usual from the air cleaner.
I run it a bit and throttling the thing up, it runs very clean with no black smoke and just a very light haze under acceleration. The fan on the radiator blows a gale. I couldn't ever imagine really getting one of these things hot even on a 40 o day under full grunt. The thing is quite smooth but you can see the effects of the compression when it slows down and rocks back and forth.  With a better air cleaner, I thik the engine would be pretty quiet over all.  I put my hand over the air intake and the noise dropped about 80%.

after running the thing a while and getting it warm, I re checked the oil and water and went to start it up again. Didn't want to know which was disappointing.  Drop of petrol down the intake and lit off first compression. Hmmmm.
Nothing wrong with the compression, nothing wrong with the way it runs.....
Returning to the learned knowledge of the ancient Diesel sages and years of experience, I went and got a water bottle and started Dribbling it into the intake. These things will digest so much water without dropping a rev it even surprised me.  I fed in about a litre over all and when I finished I noticed the thing had changed sound a LOT and the desirable Diesel Clack was back loud and clear.  First I thoughr, geez it's warmed up and got a bearing knock but that was just a mistaken thought after spending to much time with the dreaded petrol engines...... And a fellow that came in yesterday complaining the engine we sold him a few months ago was making funny noises...... Which we quickly determined was because the Dipstick came out as clean as it went in....

Ran it up some more noting there was also a significan't bark in the exhaust note now and the thing was running totally clean.  The engine was quite warm so I shut it down and went for a relight. Still doesn't want to know which is a bit Baffling.
Compression is Deadly, I would assume the injector is OK given the complete lack of smoke when running or accelerating, and the guy said the fuel was fresh and looks and smells like it.  Starts instantly with some petrol in the intake so I'm  a bit lost as to what may be the problem.  The battery was a wee bit tired after all the cranking so I put it on charge and I'll top off the fuel with the secret sauce additive Veg oil tomorrow and see what happens.
The thing doesn't wind over very fast but shouldn't have any trouble starting especially when hot.

I might set up a little peristaltic pump tomorrow and leave the thing run for a while with a steady water feed and put a few litres through the thing over an hour or 2 and see how that goes. really at a loss as to why it won't start without some help. Thing rocks back and forth under compression when it is slowing down to stop so I can't see lack of squeeze being the problem and it runs so clean and grunty as soon as it does fire.

Next thing will be to see if I can find a stub shaft for the thing without having to sell a Kidney to get it or work out a way to fabricate one up.

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2019, 03:18:17 PM »
Odd starting problem.  Valve lash, inj. spray pattern, injection timing all come to mind. My MB 300D is notorious for having cold start issues if valves aren't right on the mark.

Pity it's so hard to get some loaded run time on a bare engine.


ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2019, 01:05:59 AM »
Hi Glort, sounds like you had a very productive trip. I`m not sure how the bump clearance is set on these engines but it does sound like it might be a bit too tight. A dribbling fuel injector might also have the same effect.

Can you let me know the details of the stub shaft you need, I might be able to turn one up on my mates lathe, next week.

Bob

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2019, 05:19:45 AM »

Went out early this morning inspired by the opportunity to play with the new toy.

I put some new fuel in it with a good bit of new oil. Big battery was well charged and I hooked it up and couldn't get the engine to start. Few drops, and only a few drops of Petrol down the intake and she barked right up.... then proceeded to die as I had put the throttle position back in shutoff. Opened it up as she was barley turning and again she barked nicely.

I let it warm up a bit while I sat listening to the music and Contemplating life and checked the output from the alternator which is producing although the electrics are otherwise dead. I stopped the thing having smelt the aroma of the veg going through but she would not start on her own without some ULP but again with a few drops fired first compression stroke. Let it run a bit more and shut uit down.

I pulled a gaurd off the fan which has shallow clearance to the flywheel and saw a LOT of built up dirt and grime. This one has definitely logged up some hours! Will need to give it a going over with some degreaser ( although it's very dry in that department) and a pressure washer.

Thinking of Bruces wise suggestion of the valves, I pulled the " Rocket" cover as I have seen them called and without measuring, deemed the vale lash to be OK.  Definitely not tight and have what I would eyeball as being the right sort of clearance of around 10 thou. I didn't think it would be that given how hard it is to turn through compression by hand but having made incorrect assumptions before, I can now check that one off as being not the cause.
  Next thing while I was there with half the covers removed was pull the injector.  Given how tight it was and the rust around the body and other adhesive grime, I reckon that has been the first daylight it had seen since it's birth.

The tip looked pretty good, no over the top buildup and polished easy with a rag.  I wondered what it would have looked like before the WI treatment yesterday.  Speaking of which.... I noticed the oil was a tad milky when I checked it this morning. Lead me to wonder about the ring sealing even though the thing has impossible compression. I didn't even really slow the thing yesterday so I'm a bit surprised some water has go into the oil. Was clear yesterday when I checked.

I cracked the injector to find it's internals like every other small engine injector and gave the pintle a clean and a blow out and it looked OK as well.  Put it back together with a cat sitting on my knee the whole time and not being happy with the lack of attention it was getting being taken by this other thing with the 10 Tiny fiddly bits of which I managed to loose none.
Hooked it to the injector line and spun the engine up and saw what looked like an acceptable spray pattern.

Put it back in the engine, moved the puss and ran it up where it slowly fired into life.  Winner! I didn't think I had done enough to make a difference but, was starting now where it hadn't before.  I thought the slow start might have been a bit of air still in the line or injector although I have found these things bleed pretty well so I ran for a bit then shut down again.  Refire was the same as the first. Took a few turns then gathered speed and we are off and running.

I ran the thing for about 45 min while I did some other things so it would heat up and clear out the water in the oil and I never heard it misfire once.  the crankcase gets hot but the coolant is never more than warm thanks to the very powerful fan and cooling. I put a rag over the radiator screen to get the thing hotter but it seems to diminish the output very little even though it was thick cloth and after 10 min the output temps seemed no different. Still cold.
Of course by now there is a bit of oil round the head thanks to breaking the rocker gasket. The will be a clean and careful silicone bead job.
For some things I put them on the scanner and do a copy on gasket paper or single ply cardboard then cut them out. This is a bit intricate  so see how I go with some silicone.

After shutting the thing down, I couldn't refire it without the Smelling salts.
I found another injector nozzle on Alli so I can refresh the one in the machine. Priced to kill at all of $11 delivered.  I'll put that in and see how I go. Hopefully it's the injector not the pump. the fact i can't make the thing blow any black smoke seems odd. Every other engine I have will  Smoke but this one won't which makes me wonder if it is getting enough fuel? thing has a new filter and bowl and the tank is very clean so I don't think it is the supply and in any case I would think it would blacken the exhaust when the throttle is cracked.

The intake is for sure the noisyiest part of this engine.  When it was running I wrapped some cloth around the base of the air filter which it sucked in a bit and the noise dropped Significantly. I'll have to look at either fitting a car air box and runners or getting a new muffler and putting that on the intake .  the Muffler on both engines look new but maube putting another car Muffler wouldn't hurt there either.

I thought I had another Voltage rectifier/ tregulator but can't find it to test the electrics. I'll see if I can find one of those cheap and order one of those as well. For now I'll wait till the new injector arrives and see how that goes. In teh mean time I might try and bark up the other incomplete engine. All it needs is a fuel tank so shouldn't be hard to get some juice into is and see what happens with that.

Might be annoying if it does start on it's own. Spose I'll have the parts for a transplant though on the pump and injector to the other one.

BruceM

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2019, 05:44:12 AM »
Noise at the intake is from early intake opening while still having exhaust pressure left.  The overlap period where intake and exhaust valves are both open.  You might try increasing intake lash to retard it somewhat though that may affect maximum power. There may be a range where noise can be reduced without much affect on power do to restricted intake opening.  Worth a try, costs nothing.

My 1988 3 cylinder Kubota tractor engine has a hell of a clatter and bark, and not from the exhaust. 

 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:33:35 PM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2019, 08:10:56 AM »

Hi Bob,

Thank you very much for the kind offer of the lathe work.  I wouldn't know what to give you dimensions wise. The flywheel has 2 sets of 3 holes, a smaller and larger diameter but I can't find what the pitch circle is anywhere.  Millions of these engines around but I'm not even sure the correct term for what to search for.

I may have come up with a short cut though.
I was looking through the piles of jun.... Treasure, round the side of the shed and found a pair of Brake disks. Pretty sure ironically they were for my W123 Mercs same as Bruces but they never got put on. Unfortunately the many holes drilled in the hub don't line up although appear to be the right diameter.
What looks like a go is to turn the back of the disk to the flywheel as it would be on the car and have the disk drilled to suit the flywheel. It just fits in the rim with about an inch to spare all the way round. That way I should be able to bolt it straight on and the hub will clear the crank nut which is raised proud of the flywheel.  The hub area is about 6" Diameter so I think I have 2 options with it.

1, I can drive a serpentine belt directly off the hub but I will have to get a serpentine Pulley for the motor I want to drive.
 The engine is 12Hp so I'm not sure if a serpentine will drive that reliably so I'll have to wade through the online calcs.

2, The other option is to put a shaft on the end of the hub.  I was looking at the CV shaft I brought back to put on the Mrs car and it looks like the end is big enough to split it off and weld it to the face of the hub. The shaft which is splined is 32mm from memory so could be turned down to 1.5" or 1.25 For a V belt pulley. 

I meant to look at some disks while I was up north. Looked at flywheels but they are no good  but a read disk that has the larger hub for the parking brake shoes May be close.  I think I'd be happy to go with the merc disks for now but I may have to try and get off a flywheel  which will be a job and a half to get the measurements if I can't find them online.

It seems my options are complexity or cost. If I have the disk drilled to mount it on the flywheel I'll have to get the serpentine pulley which are an arm and a leg and far more than the V belts.  If I stick with the V on the motor then I'll have to have the CV shaft turned down, centred and welded.
mate has a lathe so I may be able to do that or kill myself in the process trying. Might be better just to use it to centre the hubs up and weld them although a machine place probablyu would add a lot to the cost for that either.  I could ask BIL but I don't want to wait 12 months to get it back like the last one he did for me.


I was also Looking at my twin cyl 30 Hp Ruggerini today and I think the brake disk may work for that. I'm pretty sure that is drilled to SAE pitch so I'll look into that as well. This would be a real nice engine but not much I can do with it till I get a way to drive something off it.  That is flat flywheel but a brake disk may be an easy and best of all cheap workaround with a the end of a CV shaft welded on to mount a Pulley.
I have grandiose ideas to make myself a tractor with that engine and hook it up to a gearbox and diff.

Thanks again for the kind offer. It's much appreciated.

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2019, 11:12:12 AM »
Hi Glort, try your local Kubota dealer, they should have the original specs for hole spacing, three holes is a bugger (four is much easier to measure). There are ways of calculating the circumference based on the distance between hole centers but I`ve forgotten them, I`m sure they are available on the internet. Failing all else a piece of paper and a ball pein hammer will produce a very good template.

I don`t recommend trying to weld anything to a brake disk, depending what they are made of, you are unlikely to achieve a strong/lasting weld.

If the BIL is too flakey to do the job in a reasonable time my offer stands. Please be very careful about doing lathe work yourself, not that I doubt your talents or determination. I spent years working heavy industrial machinery and still have all my fingers and both eyes. Some of this was skill and some down to luck, I have had awkward shaped pieces fly out of lathes, fortunately they all missed me and my fellow workers. My advice to anyone using machine tools has always been: if you are not sure about it don`t do it!

Bob

mikenash

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2019, 11:28:46 AM »
I think a brake disc may crack if you ask it to accept flex loads . . .

glort

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2019, 12:48:04 PM »
Hi Glort, try your local Kubota dealer, they should have the original specs for hole spacing, three holes is a bugger (four is much easier to measure).

Yes, I remembered too late today there is a Kubota stealer right in town. They may be able to look it up but they mainly sell lawnmowers and compact tractors out here.  Beautiful, gorgeous compact tractors with beautiful sleek orange lines and 4 way buckets with auto levelling and smooth cutting mower decks and hard digging backhoes...... But I digress......


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There are ways of calculating the circumference based on the distance between hole centers but I`ve forgotten them, I`m sure they are available on the internet. Failing all else a piece of paper and a ball pein hammer will produce a very good template.

I thought of measuring with a pair of calipers as there is a nice centre mark in the midle of the crankshaft but the  shaft is raised so even if my measuring were accurate, it wouldn't be. Same with rubbing a crayon on paper. that would probably be worse.  Maybe measuring and expanding the holes a size or 3 would line it up.  That's what washers are for right?

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I don`t recommend trying to weld anything to a brake disk, depending what they are made of, you are unlikely to achieve a strong/lasting weld.
  These are Non ventilated and new/ unused but I see your point as they are basicaly cast iron.  Fluckit! I thought I had found a cunning work around.  I'll ask at the Kubota stealers about the shafts as I have seen they are supposed to come with the engines. I have only found one out of date price online and that suggested a price tag of $300. 

I bought a couple of filters from the stealer in town for Dads RTV Tipper on Tuesday and they were only $15 ea. Of course got them back and take one look, go into the work shop and yep, as I thought, They are Subaru filters.... which are $15 ea as well.  That filter suits a LOT of different things including my twin Cyl Honda mower and a bunch of other cars.


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If the BIL is too flakey to do the job in a reasonable time my offer stands.
Thanks Bob. I appreciate the offer.
Given up on BIL. Everything he wants I get told straight out that he dosen't want it in 6 Months, he'd like it in a timely order.  I asked when was the last time I ever dragged the chain and even his wife said she thought  he should practice what he preached because I always did things for him quickly but he didn't return the favour any time she had seen. I think beggars should not choosers But, nice if the job gets done before the beggar dies of old age.


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Please be very careful about doing lathe work yourself, not that I doubt your talents or determination.

You should Doubt them. I have done little with metal Lathes. Not even sure what tools my mate has .  Come to think of it, I have no clue why he bought it. He knows nothing about them either  It's a big thing though and has an expensive CNC type controller


Quote
I spent years working heavy industrial machinery and still have all my fingers and both eyes. Some of this was skill and some down to luck, I have had awkward shaped pieces fly out of lathes, fortunately they all missed me and my fellow workers. My advice to anyone using machine tools has always been: if you are not sure about it don`t do it!

Thing with me is Bob, I'd do everything wrong, the thing could blow up and I wouldn't get a scratch.  i'd walk out the workshop, A tree would drop a branch and I'd be in hospital having my head stitched back on my shoulders. It's NEVER the dangerous things I shouldn't do, it's always the unforseen noone warns you about or would consider dangerous that buggers me up.

Many years ago, my very beloved father in law was going to teach me how to use lathes and mills and all the gear he had. having just retired I think he was looking forward to it as much as I was.  unfortunately he got sick with cancer and was never in a position to do that. Something I think of often and deeply regret. We lost him a long time ago but I still get teary when I think of him. Another of so many precious people I have lost.


 I had another play with the engine late this afternoon. Was looking at the electrics but still no joy.  I tried winding it up and it wouldn't go.  I had a can of degreaser beside me so I gave it a shot where the aircleaner intake is.  Wound it up and the thing barked up into life straight away. Could not have got anything than the fumes with the cover still on but that was enough.  Why ever it's not starting on it's own it's only just missing out. I reckon I could throw 100Ml of petrol in the tank and it would light up OK.

Gives me hope the injector nozzle and pintle will do the trick.

ajaffa1

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2019, 01:07:05 PM »
In your earlier post you said that you had it running well on veg oil, perhaps you need a blend of veg with a touch of RUG at this time of year when it is cold.

I`m looking to buy a decent lathe and milling machine in the near future, maybe I can teach you what you missed out on with the FIL. I`m thinking Colchester for the lathe and either Bridgeport or Cincinnati for the mill. I`d love a surface grinder as well but the Wife will only stand for so much!  :laugh:

You will always be welcome,

Bob

mikenash

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2019, 08:40:13 PM »
PCD of three holes:

PCD = Pitch Centre Diameter so it's the diameter of a circle that you could draw that would pass through the centre of your three holes (excuse me if you already know this)

(1) clean the shaft with emery & measure the diameter with verniers - that's dimension one

(2) Use the stem of the vernier to measure from the shaft out to the inner edge of each hole.  Average these three to minimise measuring inaccuracy - that's dimension two

(3) Do the same with the vernier to the outside edge of each hole and average as above - dimension three

(4) (dimension two + dimension three) divided by two, plus dimension one, is PCD - or as close as you'll get by measuring

FWIW it's effectively impossible to measure anything to the centre of a hole but usually OK to measure to each edge, add and then halve . . .

mikenash

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Re: New Watercooled Diesel Toys
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2019, 09:41:51 PM »
Sorry, I have that wrong

one + two + three = PCD