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Author Topic: CS head - worth bothering with?  (Read 401 times)

mikenash

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CS head - worth bothering with?
« on: June 15, 2019, 03:44:37 AM »
Hi Guys

Some of you have given me a hand with advice on the + 40 thou piston and barrel I have been tinkering with; and that has been much appreciated

When I took the engine apart I dumped the head, injector, pump and a few other bits and pieces in a big bucket of diesel for a couple of weeks

This morning I made an abominable mess in the workshop giving them a clean and dismantling the head etc

See pics?

Getting the valves out was a mission as the head had sat in the weather long enough for the springs to be substantially rusted - I would say the guides would need replacing, too

I can buy a whole new Indian 7-stud head complete from Australia for about $NZ250 and probably a hundred or two dollars in freight - maybe somewhere in the $NZ350-550 range landed . . .

I wonder if it's worth mucking about with this head - or if it's better to just put it "on the shelf" for an occasion when I have more time - whenever that might be

My objective is to have one good engine I know to have sound internals plus a bunch of good spares - and I think that (with a bit of machine-shop repairs to the top ring groove) the +40 thou Barrel & piston out of this engine will have a good service life ahead of them

I'd be interested in thoughts as I don't have the experience to interpret the images in terms of "how worn things are"

Cheers

(similar query underway re pump & injector - bear with me here)

Thanks, Mike

sirpedrosa

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2019, 09:11:51 AM »
Hi Mike

Both the head, valves, pump and injector seem to me to be in good internal condition, of course a good cleaning helps to realize if there are too large clearances. On the outside they have the rust of the time they stay seated.

That alu piston with spoked wheels, and the tricky ring maybe will give you a bitter mouth...

Remove that scale, and disassemble all bits, especially the injector pump, and checks if the element is correct for 6/1 (because of the flow rate), and the injector has to be tuned to the correct pressure.

Good luck.
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx

dieselspanner

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 09:12:57 AM »
Same as the other post, for the injector!

If you are importing parts from Aus, why not go straight to Rajkot? I've found that I can place an order with Devprecision on a Sunday night, have it confirmed Monday morning, pay with Paypal - nicely protected - and the Fedex truck rolls down the drive, Friday lunchtime, prices are reasonable, compared to the uk, even taking postage into account.

I had a problem with an injector pump and after a bit of a moan on here, followed by me sending a link it was all sorted free of charge, no I don't have any other connections with the Sub Continent!!

When I built my 'bitza' I had terrible trouble with balancing, eventually I came to the conclusion that as it was a 3/1 bottom end, with the larger barrel and piston, the flywheels were weighted differently. I had an alloy 8/1 piston and rings sent out from Devprecision, it was a near perfect fit, and the engine is now as smooth as, at 650 rpm. Just a word to the wise for when you are putting the big pile of bits back together......

Cheers
Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 09:38:22 AM »
Same as the other post, for the injector!

If you are importing parts from Aus, why not go straight to Rajkot? I've found that I can place an order with Devprecision on a Sunday night, have it confirmed Monday morning, pay with Paypal - nicely protected - and the Fedex truck rolls down the drive, Friday lunchtime, prices are reasonable, compared to the uk, even taking postage into account.

I had a problem with an injector pump and after a bit of a moan on here, followed by me sending a link it was all sorted free of charge, no I don't have any other connections with the Sub Continent!!

When I built my 'bitza' I had terrible trouble with balancing, eventually I came to the conclusion that as it was a 3/1 bottom end, with the larger barrel and piston, the flywheels were weighted differently. I had an alloy 8/1 piston and rings sent out from Devprecision, it was a near perfect fit, and the engine is now as smooth as, at 650 rpm. Just a word to the wise for when you are putting the big pile of bits back together......

Cheers
Stef

Stef, Hi & thanks

I wondered myself about balance & related issues - eventually I came to the conclusion it had probably been running like that for a decade . . .

That cylinder & what is effectively an 8/1 piston, I guess, might end up on another 6/1 I have been playing with and have yet to tear down to have a look at rings etc - I guess we'll see what happens

I take your point about going direct to Rajkot.  FWIW I quite like to support Rob at OldTimerEngines in a small way as he provides a service with stock and with advice etc.  I doubt he's getting rich doing what he does

ajaffa1

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 11:47:21 AM »
Hi Mike, sorry not to have been much involved on the forum recently, personal family issues. That cylinder head should be OK. The first thing to check is how far below the surface of the head the valves sit, 50 thou is good 100 thou is bad.

Replacing valve guides is not that expensive or difficult, if I remember rightly the inlet guide is a press fit and can be easily pressed out and replaced, while the exhaust valve has a thread on it and needs to be unscrewed, they are made of a very soft iron so they break easily leaving you with half the thread and guide left in the head. Fortunately they are made of such soft stuff that they can easily be cut with a junior hacksaw blade. Make three cuts in the guide and then fold it in on itself with a drift.

If the valve faces were closer to 50 thou below the surface of the head they can be re-cut without a problem, if they are approaching 100 thou the seats will need replacing. 38ac did a very good post about replacing/resurfacing valve seats on the WOK.

In my limited experience, the quality of castings and machining on the original Lister heads and parts is superior to the offerings from Rajkot. I recently purchased a replacement Indian cylinder head because it was the cheapest option, sadly it did not have hardened valve seats. The cost of having it machined to original specifications and having hardened seats fitted cost a lot more than repairing the original. Lesson learned.

Bob


mikenash

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 03:54:47 PM »
Hi Mike, sorry not to have been much involved on the forum recently, personal family issues. That cylinder head should be OK. The first thing to check is how far below the surface of the head the valves sit, 50 thou is good 100 thou is bad.

Replacing valve guides is not that expensive or difficult, if I remember rightly the inlet guide is a press fit and can be easily pressed out and replaced, while the exhaust valve has a thread on it and needs to be unscrewed, they are made of a very soft iron so they break easily leaving you with half the thread and guide left in the head. Fortunately they are made of such soft stuff that they can easily be cut with a junior hacksaw blade. Make three cuts in the guide and then fold it in on itself with a drift.

If the valve faces were closer to 50 thou below the surface of the head they can be re-cut without a problem, if they are approaching 100 thou the seats will need replacing. 38ac did a very good post about replacing/resurfacing valve seats on the WOK.

In my limited experience, the quality of castings and machining on the original Lister heads and parts is superior to the offerings from Rajkot. I recently purchased a replacement Indian cylinder head because it was the cheapest option, sadly it did not have hardened valve seats. The cost of having it machined to original specifications and having hardened seats fitted cost a lot more than repairing the original. Lesson learned.

Bob

Hey Bob, thanks for the reply

I hope you are coping with health & family stuff OK

That's exactly the perspective I needed to hear, thanks

Looking at the spec of the Rajkot head it doesn't mention valve seat inserts which it surely would if they were present

I will pop the valves back in that head, have a measure to establish their depth and see what needs doing.  Y'know, I don't know that I have an imperial set of feeler gauges any longer - but I do have a calculator lol

Thanks for the advice

Yes, I sat up last night and read the wonderful 38AC thread on the head and all the other bits.  What Kiwis would call a "Taonga" - a treasure

Cheers

BruceM

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 05:23:37 PM »
I was waiting for more experienced members to comment first, but I'd also like to say, wow, the head and valves and valve seats look good to me.  Regarding valve guides- I'd check the fit to see if they are sloppy and worn; the engine was clearly rebuilt, and may not have many hours on those valves/guides.

I must also report that even with my limited experience, I've so far seen two Rajkot produced heads that had casting defects.  I wouldn't rush to use them if you have an original that can be brought up to snuff, even if it cost more to do so.


dieselspanner

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 07:55:59 AM »
You don't need a calculator, Mike, just remember 40 thou is near enough a millimetre and do the rest in your head, that'll be close enough for a Lister on a sheep station......

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 08:28:39 AM »
You don't need a calculator, Mike, just remember 40 thou is near enough a millimetre and do the rest in your head, that'll be close enough for a Lister on a sheep station......

Cheers
Stef

Lol Stef, I'll just count on my fingers.  I was joking about imperial/inch stuff.  I live in a metric country but the bread and butter of my industry is working on big irrigation equipment made in Nebraska and Oklahoma - so I have gotten adept at translating inch dimensions into millimetres.  In fact I'm old enough to have grown up with imperial and then truned to metric in the '70s and now having to re-learn inch stuff in the 00s.  Cheers

mikenash

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 08:34:03 AM »
I was waiting for more experienced members to comment first, but I'd also like to say, wow, the head and valves and valve seats look good to me.  Regarding valve guides- I'd check the fit to see if they are sloppy and worn; the engine was clearly rebuilt, and may not have many hours on those valves/guides.

I must also report that even with my limited experience, I've so far seen two Rajkot produced heads that had casting defects.  I wouldn't rush to use them if you have an original that can be brought up to snuff, even if it cost more to do so.

Thanks, Bruce.  Good advice & appreciated

I'll have a play with it all

Cheers

dieselspanner

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 09:48:22 AM »
Same as that, Mike!

I can do miles, furlongs, chains, yards, feet and inches, Kilometres and meters, centimetres and millimetres, Short, long tons and metric tonnes, gallons US and imperial but my Land Rover has to do miles per gallon, litres to the hundred kilometres I just can't envisage, go figure......

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

ajaffa1

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 11:39:11 AM »
Hi Stef, I`m in the same boat, miles per gallon works for me but having emigrated to Australia it`s all liters per 100 kilometers, might as well be furlongs per half hundredweight.

Bob

38ac

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 10:35:28 PM »
I don't see any major issues with the head. I'd repair it but I don't have to send it out to get that done.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

mikenash

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 07:19:25 AM »
Orright then - on the basis that "40 thou is near enough to a mil' . . .

That head's pretty rough, but these aren't precision machines . . .

I have a spacer coming that I hope will prove to be suitable for use in machining the top ring groove of the alloy +40 thou piston

If that ring-groove-repair turns out to be a runner, then it's worth putting the engine back together - even with just a hand-controlled diesel pump - to see what's what if we can get it to run, I think

Basically, I'd like to know if that piston and cylinder are good enough to put in a machine which I'd like to see as "good enough to do a job of work"

The guides are a bit rattly, but, with a bit of oil here and there - who knows if they'll leak or not?  They're pretty long guides

Working on "40 thou to a mil" the valves are 72 and 64 thou below the surface of the head, once I have given them a grind.  I guess "worn but not totally buggered" might cover it

I had a quick scratch around the edges of the head with an old flat file - it looks good.  I'll do something ugly with a big flat file and some emery and it'll come up OK enough to bolt down

I'll be interested to see what happens

I'm off up to my Bay of Plenty property this weekend.  I just bought a car for my daughter - my second-favourite car in the whole world, the trusty mid-2000s 1800 Corolla with the 4-spd auto; second only to the 2,2 litre Camry in the "Tough, Cheap & Reliable" stakes - and I'm delivering that.  While I'm there, if there's time, I'll rob the pump, line & injector off the motor there and bring them back here to see if we can kick this one into life

The pump off this one's a (possibly sad) story for another day . . .

Let's call it a plan, eh?

Thanks for al the advice

ajaffa1

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Re: CS head - worth bothering with?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 09:37:55 AM »
Hi Mike, the numbers you posted suggest that the valves are in the sweet spot between new and worn out. A little valve lapping paste and they should be fine. If the guides are a little worn, I wouldn`t worry about it too much you are rebuilding a Lister not a Ferrari, as long as you can achieve sufficient compression for the fuel to light off she will probably outlive us all. If it burns a little oil and smokes a bit who cares, just keep it away from the washing line, soot smuts on the missus laundry is a conversation you don`t want to be having!  :laugh:

In the past I purchased a second hand injector pump from Rob at Old Timer Engines, I think it cost me $50 Australian, It was perfectly serviceable, he has a lot of used parts available.

I have no idea of the age of your Daughter, please instill in her the importance of careful driving. A 17 year old girl died in a road traffic accident here last week, my best mate was the first responder, not an experience he wants to repeat.

Bob