Author Topic: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special  (Read 586 times)

mikenash

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playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« on: June 04, 2019, 08:51:56 AM »
Finally got around to seeing if the old CS that has been sitting up in the Bay of Plenty is a runner or not

I bought it off a chap who thought it had been in his yard for "quite a few years" but also thought it "probably wouldn't take much to get it going".  A familiar story to one and all here I am sure . . .

I said recently I paid $300 for it, but I think I actually paid $500?  Details a bit blurry as it was a few years ago now.  It has been sitting on the base built out of heavy RSJ for a couple years waiting for some attention

I did the on-the-fly measurement of the rim circumference thing to calculate inlet opening & zorst closing etc etc and fitted a new pump and injector & it bled up good.  A good clean "crink" with each injection

Doesn't want to go, though

I gave it a lot of heat from the butane and a bit of Aerostart but no go.  Just not quite enough compression.  If you try really hard you can keep cranking it over and over the compressions after you let the valve lifter go - and I could feel a little "pop" most compressions and a wee puff of white smoke and a bit of a hand from a partial ignition

It'll have to come apart - my guess would be the rings are stuck

Actually it's good that it has to come apart since, as it has work to do, I'll have to address any issues properly rather than just giving in to the temptation to get it going and use it . . .

They're nice looking machines, aren't they

Jordan

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2019, 10:33:20 AM »
Yes.

38ac

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2019, 11:10:10 AM »
I wouldn't jump into it just yet if it was mine. When an engine has set for a long time low compression is often rectified if you can get it to run just a bit.  Listen for leaks from the vaves, if so you can often fix that by tapping(not beating!) on the rockers hard enough to take the valve off the seat. Pull the intake elbow and turn it until the valve is open and give it 5 to10 pumps of 30W don't go overboard as you can hydraulic it and cause damage. That should raise compression enough to get it to fire. Another option is to belt it up to another engine. Starting fluids are last resort and used VERY sparingly, a wiff from a good distance away.
Often if one can get it to fire and run for a few minutes they will go after that.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 10:03:28 AM »
Yes, you're dead right about all of that, of course

I gave it a couple of teaspoons of oil at one point without much improvement except that it was harder to turn over

To put things in perspective - the property where it is concreted down is my "retirement" project and it's off-grid.  I'm just beginning to have a play with some solar stuff . . . .

The CS - I hope - will serve as a prime mover for backup power.  I have a nice Markon and an un-tested ST-type Chinese head, either of which can end up attached to it, plus a great pair of heavy Leece-Neville bus alternators to make some 24VDC which I'd like to see attached as well, perhaps

So it has work to do.  I already have a CS which is a nice runner and starter with a worn barrel and a 5-stud Indian head fitted with no COV at all.  So, because this one has work to do, and cos I'm looking ahead to a time when I may not have the energy or inclination to rebuild one of these, it's probably worth taking this one apart to see what needs doing.  I have piston and rings on the shelf, along with a wrist pin, some odd gaskets and bits-and-bobs, plus a spare, complete, 7-stud head with a heater element glow plug insert thingie for where the COV should be.  So I may not have to buy much if it's worn internally.  Depends on the barrel, I guess

All of which is a long-winded way of saying I'd like it to end up as mechanically sound as I can get it without any real $$ expenditure

If, some time in the future, it can serve to run the welder or big power tools, to charge batteries if we get a few days with no sunshine, or to act as a supply of 240VAC in an emergency - that would be a good outcome

Of course, I might get it apart and find much of it is stuffed - still better to know than not to know, I hope

Cheers

38ac

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 11:05:53 AM »
Sounds like you have a good plan.
I have a 6/1 in similar shape coming in. This one will stay here and accompany my 10/2.  It is likely that neither of them will do anything useful aside of keeping me company.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Willw

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 09:25:49 PM »
Lol 38ac,
Quote
It is likely that neither of them will do anything useful aside of keeping me company.

You've put my engine collection in a nutshell with that one ;D

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 10:56:40 AM »
I bought another one last week and just collected it yesterday

It was a bit of a "pig in a poke" purchase with just one photo on TradeMe and an elderly vendor who described it as (her husband's) "junk".  Still, for $100 what could go wrong?

I had an interesting conversation with the old bloke himself, and his former boss, the (now retired) owner of the station whence the engine had come

They said it had been "down at the bottom of a gully pumping water for years" and the old bloke said it was supposed to be a 3HP but they had put a "5HP barrel on it once, and maybe even rebuilt it one other time?"

The owner reckoned they had retired it when it "got hard to start"

They both agreed it had spent the last 15 or 20 years sitting on a stump at the gateway (this is on a remotes station two hours out of a rural town on a gravel road-to-nowhere) as an ornament until "the stump was rotting away underneath it and it was gonna fall off and kill some kid waiting for the school bus at the gate" at which point they were going to give it away but thought if someone would give them $100 for it then that was better than sending it for scrap

So expectations were low . . .

I got it home and pulled off the head (valves stuck closed & the head is now soaking in a bucket of diesel) but it turned over freely

Then pulled off the barrel and the bore looked GREAT.  Just the slightest bit of minor pitting and a lip at the top you can only just feel with a fingernail (see photos?)

The rings were all free in the piston and there was essentially no carbon (two minutes with a wire brush on the top of the piston)

See pics of what it says on the piston . . .

Piston says, maybe

008 0.4025

WELLWORTHY

BLQA 403101/1/0.40T

I wonder if it's a 40 thou "over" piston?  I have no idea what the rest might mean but someone may know?

It's certainly a 114mm -ish bore

I cleaned a kilo or so of scale out of the water-jacket along with a 20-year accumulation of mason-bee nest stuff, gave the barrel a buff-up and flat-filed the top to check for damage - it has a few scars but is basically 100%

I would think it is certainly a "donor" barrel and piston for the motor I need to dismantle - but maybe it's better for it to just be a straight swap from the conrod upwards?

I have just paid $65 on TradeMe for a cylinder hone

Then made a new base gasket out of guesstimate-thick paper (there's an aerosol adhesive we use at work which i quite like and I might give the paper gasket a couple of soakings of that before "gluing" it to the barrel and to the case )  Someone better qualified may have an opinion on that, too - I guess the base-gasket has to combat coolant seepage? . . .

Just now paid Rob at OldTimerEngines in Australia $150 for three X head gaskets, a pair of rockers on a shaft (complete with adjusters & locknuts) and a couple of valve stem caps as it has obviously run for a while without one of them - hence the rocker set

I'm looking forward to having a "play"  It might turn out to be a goodie

I might start a separate thread with that piston image and number to see what there might be to learn there, too . . .

Cheers



BruceM

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 06:36:59 PM »
Is that the original chrome plating inside the bore?  Great find.  A reversed engine with exhaust on the right is also quite a museum piece.  ;)

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2019, 09:17:11 AM »
I guess it's the original chrome?  But I also wondered if the piston was oversize.  There's a bunch of writing on the top of it.  I'll have to have a proper look at stuff in daylight - but work is getting in the way right now

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2019, 10:58:16 AM »
great deadpan too guys - could be British lol

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2019, 09:22:18 AM »
Hi again guys

We talked a little about this engine a while back.  Compression was low & I was going to strip it to see what was happening

I did this and was surprised to find a 3 & piston and (I think) sleeved cylinder.  Cylinder surface is pretty good.  Rings were stuck but they & the piston came up OK.  Measured at the bottom of the cylinder theres between 0.49 and 0.54mm (about 20 thou?) ring gap

As commented-upon it has the old-style head with two rocker shaft pedestals

When I started cleaning the barrel, I began by spraying Brakleen everywhere & blowing it dry with the compressed air.  When I did this, black oil residue seeped out between the block and the sleeve at the base.  See pic?  It continued to do this as I continued to clean

This makes me think its a barrel re-bored & with a 3 & sleeve pressed in?  Or is that the normal 3/1 construction?

The combustion chamber orifice is a different shape to what I am used to seeing, too.

Crank and big-end and rod and pin feel good, so I could easily just put my alloy-piston sort-of 8/1 piston and cylinder on there.  I wonder if the head is useable?

Id be interested to know folks thoughts on that head?  Is it an old one?  If it is, does that matter?  Or maybe its a 3/1 head?  And, if it is, does that matter either?

Id be interested in some wisdom

Thanks

BruceM

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2019, 06:22:09 PM »
The valves look smaller to me (???), though I could be mistaken.  That might be a show stopper for using that head as a 6/1 or 8/1.  Weird sleeve with those notches in the bottom. What are your intentions'/desires for this one?

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2019, 08:48:46 PM »
Hi Bruce

At the site where it is sitting there is work to be done supporting solar when the sun don't shine or when loads are high.  This is up at my Bay of Plenty "retirement plan" site.  Sounds grand but really just a paddock with a workshop & a shed and a spring-fed elevated water supply at 2 bar - plus it's sited in the "sunniest" part of NZ - so all-in-all a wonderful potential off-grid site

It's bolted down to a big 6" X 12" RSJ /I-beam frame on a concrete pad.  So I'd like to use the bottom end at least and, superficially, it feels OK (no movement to be felt leaning on the wheels or rattling the rod/big-end etc)

I have a good +40 thou barrel and I recently bought a new +40 thou piston assembly from England.  Plus I have an original CS 6/1 head with good-ish valves and seats - so those bits can go on.  The head has a glow plug in place of its COV valve so calculating squish to get the compression just right may be a bit of a trial-and-error

I can probably just put all those bits together for a good result.  There's a new Bosch/Mico pump & a new injector already there for it

I have a couple of monster (about 90A I think?) new Leece-Neville bus alternators that wouldn't take too much mounting, so it can make DC for batteries.  And I have a couple of 5kVA-ish heads - an ST clone and a nice Markon - either of which can potentially sit there and make some AC

Should I live long enough for the day to come that I have both time and money, I'd like to pour a bigger, deeper pad so that the "feet" of the I-beams are actually sunk into it and build a wee shed around it - but that's a fair way down the to-do list

I do have another good-runner 6/1 sitting in the yard at home doing nothing - but the things are heavy and it's 400Ks away; so I'm thinking to persevere with the bottom-end of the one that's already bolted down for the moment

The good thing about playing with the old motors is that I think one gets a bit of a feel for what is tolerable/acceptable wear/clearance etc on these forgiving old engines - partly by looking at the state of them as they are torn down and in which state they had presumably been running . . . and a feeling for just how simple it is to get them running OK-ish.  The devil will be in the detail of getting squishes just right, getting the governor linkages to make some sort of constant HZ - that sort of thing

Lots of good advice here in the WOK and elsewhere on all that stuff, of course

And, of course, every time I find an engine and take it to bits there are potentially a few "spares" to go on the shelf at worst - even if most of it is junk

Cheers

mikenash

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2019, 08:53:18 PM »
I should have commented, yes, that is an odd-looking sleeve assembly . . .

There's still life in the barrel and the piston assy looks good - probably I can find someone with a 3/1 who can use them - and maybe the head, if that's what it is

Cheers

BruceM

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Re: playing with the old CS - the low-compression special
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2019, 09:22:09 PM »
If you are only charging batteries, I wouldn't be so quick to change it from a 3/1.  A 3/1 might be a better match for a battery charger.  Think about what your expected battery bank is going to be, and how many watts you are going to push into them. More charging time is spent on the tapering charge and you might be better off diesel engine life-wise going a bit slower. The alternative is AGMs, which will take massive current but no so much wet lead.  I never switched to AGM for my main 120V bank as the cost was just too high for somewhat increased life.  The better performance I don't need.  I don't do winter dark day generator charging anymore since increasing my PV from 800 to 2300W. 

On second thought those valves do look the same as 6/1 types.  We had one member (Starfire?) who had reported on modifying a 3/1 to a 6/1 and I vaguely recall the head is the same.