Puppeteer

Author Topic: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?  (Read 1051 times)

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2737
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2019, 06:25:10 AM »
I'm running road diesel now, ran it on biodiesel it's first three years. My engine hours will be much smaller now, as I'm pumping water and doing laundry on inverter/PV power.  I still run the Listeroid for the air compressor pump.

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right? - UPDATE from OP
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2019, 05:07:09 PM »
So, thank you everyone for the continued advice.

It might not be clear that this tear down is from from compression loss after 200 perfect run hours or so, almost certainly due to carbon build up.   I believe my 'squish' at TDC is already good.    I did check it, and while I to improvise, it's close to .025"   

Once I got the cylinder on - no head, no bolts - , just turning it over I can hear the body 'breathing' a ton more than before.  I think I'm good, and it was stuck ring(s).

I guess the question continues to be:  should I *replace* the copper head gasket, or just reuse the one that was there?

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2019, 09:05:55 PM »

ALWAYS replace the head gasket on any engine you tear down.

In this case the gasket will be compressed and may not seal properly anyway if you try to re use it.  By Re using it you potentially introduce other problems.
Order a few, they are something you should always have on hand in case you need to do an emergency repair.

Were you running the engine on Diesel or waste Oils?
I'm surprised to learn the things will Carbon up even on Diesel and in such a short time even if you are using waste oil. Might be a good idea to check the injection timing and the injector spray pattern while you are working on it.

Certainly makes running Water injection a very good and essential preventative maintence on these engines.   

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2737
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2019, 09:19:59 PM »
+1 Rapping on the valve is normally effective at dislodging a bit of carbon on the valve seat. Decarbon is normally a 1000 hr. job.  I have never had an exhaust valve stick, nearing 3K hrs.

Valve and injection timing will affect carbon build up, as Glort mentioned, if you haven't checked those closely already.

My memory is that the Listeroid bump clearance should be 0.050, but I may be wrong.

You can try to reuse the gasket by spraying it with the copper paint for head gaskets. I'm cheap and have done that successfully. 

 








ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 09:57:05 AM »
If you have a composite, copper faced gasket, it is probably best to replace it. They aren`t very expensive and having done all the hard work involved with your rebuild it would be a shame to have to do it all again because you have had a leaking head gasket.

In the past I have annealed solid copper gaskets and reused them, copper work-hardens over time and warming them up will return them to their original soft condition.

I`m unclear as to whether your engine has radiator cooling or a cooling tank, these engines were never designed for a pressurized cooling system like modern motors and the gaskets will leak unless you take exceptional care. I always use a variety of gasket sealants on every engine I rebuild, regardless of how flat the surfaces appear to be.

Glort is always advocating that you set up a water injection system, this will alleviate the carbon build up problem. I would recommend using rain water rather than tap water depending on how much limescale you have in your local water supply.

Pretty sure that Bruce is right about the bump clearance being around 50 thou, so you will need to shim the cylinder block up from the crankcase a little.

Let us know how you get on,

Bob

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2019, 11:44:59 AM »

Glort is always advocating that you set up a water injection system, this will alleviate the carbon build up problem. I would recommend using rain water rather than tap water depending on how much limescale you have in your local water supply.


I'll readily admit, I would not have thought there would have been much problem with diesel causing Coking in any engine that was in decent condition.
I would at first think there was something wrong with said engine but when people like Bruce say they have ( had ) to de carbon theirs at regular intervals, it gets one wondering. 

Second thought on that is to wonder if it is the diesel at all or perhaps it is coming the other way from the oil?  I guess one would have had to pull a barrel at the half way mark to see if the carbon is coming down the piston or up.  If it's down then that is a sign of poor combustion, can't be anything else.
The 1000 hours Bruce mentions in vehicular terms at an average of 60 KMH would be 60K Km.  No one would expect to tear an engine down that quick due to coking or anything else so the question would be why do these engines need it?

Having played so much with veg and done a bit with engine oil, Diesel is a very clean burning substance by comparison and Bio is cleaner still. For them to coke up takes some doing in my book.  Even if the diesel were to sit in/ on the rings and be baked there, I would expect it would take a LOT of diesel to do that. If it does it in hundreds of hours, I'd suggest something is very wrong somewhere.

If One gets a teaspoon full of diesel and burns it with a blowtorch there is nothing left in the spoon. Do that with WVO or WMO and you'll see plenty of deposits remaining.  Makes me wonder if it's not the oil getting caught in the rigs that's causing the coking rather than the fuel. If the valve guides were leaking they would have to leak enough for the engine to require significant oil top up for that not to be burnt in the combustion process.

If an engine is in serviceable condition and is coking, then far and away the best preventative is a simple water injection setup.

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1808
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2019, 12:23:24 PM »
Bump clearance is .045-.050 if the engine has a change over valve and .075-.080 if it does not. If your valves seats are recessed as most are with high hours starting will be easier if you stay at the minimum or even .005" under minimum.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2019, 12:57:33 PM »
Thank you 38ac for confirming the bump clearances, the cylinder needs raising by about 25 thou with shims.

Glort, I have wondered for a while if the coking problem is caused by oil blowing up past the piston rings. I suspect that these old engines were designed with generous piston ring clearances because they were intended to run with cold crankcase temperatures during short runs. The problem being that during a longer run the engine and oil will eventually heat up and the piston rings grow to provide a better/tighter seal, thus short runs will always burn more sump oil. Another likely culprit could be a damaged diaphragm preventing the expulsion of oil fumes from the crankcase as the piston travels downwards, this could result in a positive crankcase pressure and excessive oil being pumped upwards through the rings and being burned in the cylinder. A sure sign would be if there is oil leaking out from around the crankshaft main bearings behind the flywheels.

I still believe Glort is right that the cost of implementing and running a water injection system is so small that it should be mandatory on any system expected to provide reliable long term service.

Bob

veggie

  • Keep Calm and Start the Lister !
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2019, 02:44:41 PM »

I'll readily admit, I would not have thought there would have been much problem with diesel causing Coking in any engine that 
The 1000 hours Bruce mentions in vehicular terms at an average of 60 KMH would be 60K Km.  No one would expect to tear an engine down that quick due to coking or anything else so the question would be why do these engines need it
?

My theory on that is because the Listeroids are a slow speed engine which run at a fixed speed.
With automobile diesel engines (like my truck) the speed and load constantly varies and sometimes I even rev it a bit higher than usual to blow the "snot" out.  :)
Secondly, many listeroid systems use a large evaporative water storage tank for cooling.
This can result in many hours of running at temperatures that are less than optimal.
If the tank is too large, the engine can run for a long time without ever reaching 190f, creating an environment for soot buildup.
With stationary diesels, it's probably important to get them up to operating temperature as quickly as possible (Just like in a diesel automobile with a thermostat).

Just a thought.

Veggie
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 03:35:40 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2737
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2019, 03:59:59 PM »
I reduced my bump clearance for my elevation of 5600 ft.  By the book, which I can't recall.  That may be a factor. 

I do think the cool running of the CS is part of the carbon issue. Water injection is pretty easy for a stationary setup.  I like my gravity and intake vacuum drawn setup.  I'm using well water (rain is a rarity here) so it will be interesting to see how that goes.  I'm adding 20% methanol in the winter, 10% in spring and fall.




ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2019, 09:15:40 AM »
Hi Veggie, I think you are probably right about carbon build up being a mixture of cold running temperatures and slow RPM. I have wondered for a while about buying one of the thermostat kits that are available here: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-Thermostat-Kit.html

This should allow the engine to reach optimal running temperature quicker but won`t do anything for the cold crankcase temperatures, has anyone tried to install an electric crankcase oil heater? These are regularly fitted to back up generators in hospitals and other essential service providers, when the engine is not running they have a life support system that maintains them at running temperature to ensure instantaneous start in the event of a blackout.

Bruce, our old mate Glort adds a little regular gasoline to his WVO in winter, this helps it light off in cold weather. If you were to buy E10 (10% ethanol gasoline mix), you could add water to it and give it a good shake, the water will absorb the ethanol and then settle to the bottom. You can then decant off the water ethanol mix to use in you water injection system, while the gasoline  remaining should be good for any other equipment you have. Probably cheaper than buying methanol.

Bob

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2019, 11:03:39 AM »

If you were to buy E10 (10% ethanol gasoline mix), you could add water to it and give it a good shake, the water will absorb the ethanol and then settle to the bottom. You can then decant off the water ethanol mix to use in you water injection system, while the gasoline  remaining should be good for any other equipment you have. Probably cheaper than buying methanol.

I used to do that but with E85.  Dunno if you can get that in the states, I think so, but it was loads cheaper getting the booze that way and you get so much more.
I put it in a 25L drum, added about 5L of water, Shook it up and the two fractions settled perfectly.  Decant from the bottom, No need to be precise just put the tailings from multiple batches into another drum till you have plenty to drain off and the rest was already partially diluted water/ Eth.

I did get the not so bright idea at one stage of running a higher concentration of meth but inject less of it. This was for performance and Range when traveling.  When I had the water turned up I could use much more water than fuel. I thought higher concentration, use less would give me more time on the squirt from a given (25L) WI tank.

Didn't work out.
Even when injecting  less meth than would have been in the normal 50% water mix, the thing still nailed. Time it stoped nailing the performance boost was barely noticeable and certainly far less than with the water.  Solution was to go to a 60L WI tank with 50% mix which took up very little extra room standing up in the normally unused space than the 25 did.

When I had the pump and the WI Dialled up, geez that gave it a kick in the tail. Smile would run all the way round my head and meet in the middle at the back.
It's too fast really for the very lack lustre brakes common to those Vehicles but up the hills was Hysterical. Steeper the hill, harder she boosts and harder it pulled.

I have never really come to a conclusion I am satisfied with as to why, but I am 110% of the opinion that adding meth/ Eth to the water vastly improves it's cleaning abilities. On newly acquired vehicles full of crap it slashes the time they take to get rid of all the build-up and level out to a higher performance standard and with ongoing dosing it still has an effect.

After running meth and going back to water you can feel the engine is more sprightly but that tails off over maybe 100 Km or so depending on the country/ city Driving.  I don't know why that is and It's not imagination, the Booze definitely cleans something better that even the water must leave behind.  The engine is good for a bit then the performance tails off. It's only maybe a 10% difference which they say in the minimum you can tell but it's definitely a difference.

The only hypothesis I have come up with is maybe the booze cleans the passages in the muffler or the exhaust better?  I run enough water to keep the engine clean and I have pulled down my China engines to see how unbelievably clean the water makes the combustion chambers and ring lands so I don't think the Booze is doing anything there.

Only guess I can come up with is the Exhaust. Would be interesting to run without a Muffler ( just for the added Turblow whine) and see if the difference between the water meth and water on it's own afterwards had the same behaviour.

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2019, 11:38:07 AM »
Hi Veggie, I think you are probably right about carbon build up being a mixture of cold running temperatures and slow RPM. I have wondered for a while about buying one of the thermostat kits that are available here: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-Thermostat-Kit.html

I think they maybe wise if one was determined to run the old " Bulletproof" tank cooling system.  200L of water takes a LOT of energy to heat up when you are only throwing about 2Kw at it.

When I had my roid setup I had a thermosyphon system to an open header tank and a car radiator.  I ran the fans, or single fan being 2 were complete overkill, through a tail light globe as a resistor to slow it down. Had I have been doing a more permanent setup I would have had an electric thermostat on a relay for the fans. this would allow the engine to come up to heat with about 4L of water in the cooling system excluding the block and then when it got to temp it would be cooled.
Lots of the electronic thermos now have in and out  settable temps so you could have the over all temp very stable within a few degrees quite easily.

I know there is a lot of resistance in engine / DIY circles to  "complication" but to me this would be a great improvement.
These fans last Hundreds of thousands of KM on cars, I can't remember anyone coming into the yard to replace one other than accident damage and it would also be very easy to put in a second thermo board  on a latching relay that cut the fuel through a Solenoid or sounded an alarm if the thing did get too hot.  Cheap, simple and an improvement in my book.

As for the sump/ oil temp, another easy fix to me, run a HE out of a car radiator in the oil supply.  I have several HE's out of car radiators that run water through the middle and tranny fluid through the shell.  Easy to hook one of these up to do the same thing. Heat the oil to the same temp as the ( outgoing) water. May not need any more cooling system, have an electric fan or put blades in the spokes of the flywheels so there is a good draft blowing across the engine and there may well be enough surface area to dissipate the heat without any other tanks or radiators.

In cooler weather I'd be pretty sure this would be enough.

Quote
has anyone tried to install an electric crankcase oil heater? These are regularly fitted to back up generators in hospitals and other essential service providers, when the engine is not running they have a life support system that maintains them at running temperature to ensure instantaneous start in the event of a blackout.

If you had a regular start time everyday this might be OK. You could set a timer to kick in to heat the sump so you didn't have to wait an hour for the thing to get up to temp. Would be way too much power to leave running all the time.

I played High rise Kindergarten teacher for a while at a couple of places in the city ( building Manager)  and they had a couple of engines set up like this. One was for a fire pump and the other an emergency generator.
They were in seperate and different rooms but even though the rooms were in the basement surround by cold rock for walls, the whole rooms were always toasty warm. I used to marvel at how much power was going into those things every week and had been for about 30 odd years.

Of course if one was clever now and not in too much of a hurry to recharge batteries in the morning, it would be very easy to hook a heater up to some solar panels. May not be great on overcast days which might be when you needed to fire the genny but if running it for other reasons, Might be OK.
With enough panels and the thermal mass of the engine, the thing could be heated so it still was quite warm the next morning.  At very least, would take some load off the batteries or power supply that brought it the rest of the way up to temp.

I'm heating 100L of water in a drum atm with 2.5Kw of solar panels in my toy plastic sheet greenhouse. I can get it to 80C fairly consistently and with the temps getting down to 2 oC now, it's still a good 30C in the morning.
An engine would be 3 times the weight but far less energy density but if it were in a reasonably well enclosed shed to eliminate most of the wind chill, should maintain a decent temp.   

Only trick to watch out for would be to pay attention to matching the resistance of the heater element to that of the panels. 
Makes the difference between getting  100W and 1200W out of the exact same setup.

Willw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2019, 02:07:04 PM »
Re: quick engine warm-up. I recall reading somewhere about putting a valve in the lower water pipe so that flow into the engine can be adjusted to achieve quick warm-up as well as stable engine temps.
That is how I have mine and it seems to work well.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2737
    • View Profile
Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2019, 05:01:44 PM »
Bob, the methanol is free to me, left over from a 2 hp Honda outboard I modified to run as a pseudo diesel on methanol using Mark Cherry's Smartplug invention.  A racetrack in a nearby town sells it pretty cheap.