Author Topic: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?  (Read 648 times)

tyssniffen

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heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« on: May 25, 2019, 06:05:57 PM »
Since I've got this thing all the way down, I should put in new gaskets, yes?   The originals don't look... horrible, and I don't believe I was having gasket trouble, but...

If I should, should I do both - the 1 between the body and the cylinder and the 1 between the cylinder and the head?   

Are they just the same?  That is, can I just get 2 of the same and drop them on?

How do you clean up the surface without dirt falling into the body?

And, where's the best place to buy them from for the USA?

Tys


broncodriver99

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2019, 10:18:32 PM »
Gary at DES or Central Maine Diesel should have them. There is also justliveoffgrid.com up in Canada.

I picked up a couple of these and will give them a try when I get that far. I bought the first ones. Not sure what the difference is. They are for the original 7 stud head but I would think they would work on an Indian head as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lister-CS-Pattern-Head-Gasket-6-1-8-1-etc/231863898362?hash=item35fc2a50fa:g:qa8AAOxyHIlTXnNR

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lister-CS-Diesel-Engine-5-1-6-1-8-1-Composite-Head-Gasket-10-6544/152373669329?hash=item237a2dadd1:g:b2kAAOSwlINcUSOv

Hugh Conway

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2019, 10:33:14 PM »
The eBay product sold by Gasketnation is a good quality item. They have been in biz for a long time, and can make gaskets for just about anything if either they or you have a pattern. I did ask them if the gasket for 7 stud engines would work on the 5 stud listeroids. They did not recommend it at that time. I have used these on my Dursley without fail. Mixed results on my 5 stud listeroid, currently using a cheap-o Indian head gasket soaked in silicone sealer. to keep it from weeping coolant through the cardboard like layer sandwiched between the copper.
The gasket(s) under the cylinder are for setting bump clearance. They can be paper or aluminium or a combination of both to get the right clearance. Normal practice is to install several, measure bump clearance, then tear out sufficient number and thickness of the base gaskets to give correct bump. The base gaskets and the head gaskets are completely different animals.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

BruceM

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2019, 11:39:44 PM »
If this is a Listeroid, with a cylinder liner, I highly recommend measuring the protrusion relative to the head surface.  This has a big effect on which gaskets work and don't.  If you have more than say 0.003", your best bet is the Rajkot gaskets, with the asbestos soaked in Permatex gasket sealer to eliminate coolant weeping. 

If you have more than 3 mils of protrusion, you should get it fixed by a competent machinist.  Take the whole assembly.  I did mine by the file and sanding disk method, which is not for the average joe.  Excessive protrusion will lead to head casting concavity/warping and head gasket leakage.

The Lister clones that Gary at DES imports don't have liners and have no protrusion issues as the Listeroids usually do. 

Hugh Conway

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2019, 11:59:09 PM »
+1 re Bruce's comments on liner protrusion. Had to reduce mine, used a file, very carefully.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

tyssniffen

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2019, 03:32:55 AM »
 It is a listeriod, and does have that protrusion. I think I will leave the bottom gaskets as they were when I removed it, hoping the spacing is still correct.

BruceM

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 06:20:29 AM »
Quit hoping, check your squish, measure your protrusion.

veggie

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 03:28:48 PM »
As BruceM stated, if it has more than 0.30" protrusion you may have trouble down the road.
The gasket fire ring may seal the combustion but the extra material leaves the gasket uncompressed around the water passages. Mine was protruding by 0.060". Compression was great but it leaked water.
What a major pain in the butt.  >:(
After building thousands, I don't know how those builders in Rajkot keep getting this wrong.
I had my liner pressed out and machined. Now has about 0.050" protrusion.Whether you Draw File it, or get it machined, it should be addressed. (Each time you draw the file across the surface, thank the quality control guy at the Rajkot factory   ;D  )

If it's a brand new engine, I recommend you remove the bearing cap from the connecting rod and check the condition/clearance.
All 3 Listeroids I checked had issues.
One had a couple of grains of sand. No journal damage but I did have to change the bearing shells.
Two had excessive clearance (like 0.010" instead of 0.0015). It would have knocked and hammered itself to failure eventually. Use Plastigauge to measure. It's not expensive.

good luck
Veggie
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 09:22:02 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 03:37:07 PM »
+1 for Veggie's suggestion on checking the upper bearing shell condition and using plastigauge to check clearance.  Rajkot ignores the basics, often. 

38ac

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2019, 07:58:09 PM »
 Another thing to check if you have excess liner protrusion is the cylinder head surface,  if it was pulled down super tight over a tall liner it will not be flat but pulled down on the edges and if not corrected and you reduce the liner height your new leak will be compression into the water jacket instead of water to the outside.. If the surface is bowed more than .005" you need to correct it.
Thank you India😠
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

veggie

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2019, 09:20:21 PM »

Good point 38ac,

Perhaps the way to look at these engines is that Rajkot supplies us with machines that are roughly 85% ready.
Supplied for the hobbyist to complete. If you have that outlook from the start, it's not too bad.
And they can be made into fairly good engines.
The biggest issue I see for long duration service is the valve and valve seat materials. Are they too soft?

What kind of Valve Seat life are you guys getting from your working engines ?
Bruce? Hugh? Others?
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2019, 10:09:16 PM »
+1 on head concavity from excessive liner protrusion.  Mine was pronounced.  I flattened mine the hard way, 40 grit and spray contact cement on a piece of plate glass on foam shelf liner on cast iron surface (my table saw top).  It takes a great deal of time and elbow grease, the head provides the downward pressure. 

I concur that they just need a complete tear down and going over in detail, ala 38ac's article.

I have noted no wear on the stock valve seats at 2000 hrs a few years ago,  missed the 3000hr tear down and decarb this year due to water injection.  Normally the knocking when cold tells me when it's time for a decarbon.




veggie

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2019, 02:43:02 PM »
I have noted no wear on the stock valve seats at 2000 hrs a few years ago,  missed the 3000hr tear down and decarb this year due to water injection.  Normally the knocking when cold tells me when it's time for a decarbon.

That's good to know BruceM, thanks for the feedback.
2000 hrs is a very good benchmark for comparison.
At my rate of use (3 to 4 hrs per day only during winter) that's  4 to 5 years of operation.

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

38ac

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2019, 08:59:26 PM »
Far as I know Bruce has a more Roid run time experience than anyone on here except maybe Eddie thus he is a great source of good operational information,, and a lot of other tbings too, ;)
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glort

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Re: heads off the 6/1, should do gaskets, right?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 02:54:16 AM »

I have noted no wear on the stock valve seats at 2000 hrs a few years ago,  missed the 3000hr tear down and decarb this year due to water injection.  Normally the knocking when cold tells me when it's time for a decarbon.

Are you running Diesel, waste oils or a mix Bruce?