Author Topic: New Listeroids for sale  (Read 2651 times)

BruceM

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 11:48:04 PM »
If you think Rajkot can put consistently ready to run engines in a crate for you with typical China tractor quality...you are heading for a rude lesson.

Rajkot has not been in the same ballpark as China in consistency; we all wish you'd find someone in China to build Lister CS clones.  Rajkot is even infamous within India, as we learned here from a native many years ago. 

Sample pieces for evaluation will always be the finest they can manage...but not much like the following containers.  Competent and technically skilled people I respect have spent a great deal of time and money hoping to pull up Rajkot standards, and largely failed in getting those new stardards consistently.  Things like cam lobe placement, cam straightness, tappet alignment/binding, casting quality and material, weight of con rod and piston , flywheel key location and mass of counterbalance, finish of machined parts, valve placement/spacing in the head/rocker arm placement, voids in the head casting, idler gear location/lash, finish of cast parts, and cylinder liner protrusion all vary WIDELY.  These are all things the skilled builders here have to check and fix, and I've missed some other common ones.

The CS is a great engine and I'm glad for my Rajkot kit of mostly usable parts with rework, machining and some replacement.  With a reputable dealer like Gary at DES, bad parts are not a risk.  I would have gladly paid more for a China quality product, but that doesn't exist.


 

dieselspanner

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2019, 10:30:52 AM »
Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2019, 02:26:03 PM »
BruceM,

       You are correct, Chinese tractors and Listeroids are apples and oranges, but I'm not trying to compare them 1 for 1. The goal is to import the product within an acceptable performance envelope. That requires some level of consistency. I'm not  trying to improve the over all quality because with hand built machines and no modern machining technology thats not an achievable "ask". The Chinese tractor is a much more complex machine than a CS so to broaden the envelope you must improve quality. Thats possible in China, I watched it happen over the 20 years I imported them. The approach with the CS was to over design the things, basically throwing material at it. My approach as I mentioned earlier in other posts is to ask the manufacturer to add manufacturing steps and features that will keep the product within an acceptable quality envelope. These things are so over designed it's ridiculous, a 10 Hp engine that weighs close to 1/2 a ton... I'm aware of the cherry picking that could have occurred if I'd told the vendor they were for evaluation so I didn't.  I told them it was a one time purchase for "the farm". I wanted off the shelf product. I'm well aware of others failing to "bring up Rajkot quality". I'm an engineer by training so I look at problems in the context of root causes and practical processes to resolve. I think others have failed looking at trying to change Indian process to meet their requirements. I prefer to adapt my requirements to meet Indian process. So I have and will continue to add features that they are capable of adding to their process to align with my requirements. I can't comment of the other manufacturing incongruities you mention because I haven't seen them. Another thing to note is that there are many manufacturers and the prices vary quite a bit. But as always you get what you pay for so I don't shop by price. The CS market in India has softened so the committed manufacturers in India are looking for new markets. They want to re-invigorate the US market so I believe they will try hard to cooperate, it's in their best interest. My approach will be to give them a path forward that they can navigate to grow the business. I can't promise that there will be no issues but I will stock parts and make good on any problem. I do however believe that my adaptive approach is a practical path forward considering the realities of Listeroid manufacturing in India.

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 02:30:52 PM »
Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef

Hope so Stef, they are fantastic machines.

Tanman

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2019, 11:42:56 PM »
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?
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glort

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2019, 12:33:44 PM »
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2019, 08:03:31 PM »
Iíve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1. I will be ordering shortly some 10/1's and 6/1's if I don't get a specific requirement for anything else. The 10/1 and 6/1 are the most popular it seems. I'm re-configuring to a water pump only (no radiator), a bendix starter and no rail frame since all inquiries so far have wanted to custom mount and build their own cooling system. I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2. 

glort

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2019, 01:03:40 AM »

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2019, 04:04:14 AM »

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.

I haven't offered any volume for sale yet. I've been testing. Same thing I did with the tractors. After 2 years of testing I'm comfortable with them and will start importing but just like the tractors I'll start slow and build the inventory that sells. Again same approach with the tractors. It took 3 years to go from the first tractor to 1-2 containers per month. I anticipate the same with the listeroids. I'm in no rush, I'd rather do it right. People have every right to be cautious , it's their hard earned money. But when the first volume units are deployed the owners will speak well of them and that word of mouth will ramp the business. Same as the tractors. Listeroids aren't mass market, they are a niche product, but a very unique and useful niche product.

veggie

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2019, 05:54:00 PM »

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

glort

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2019, 02:43:04 AM »

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Wee Willy Winky used to claim 100K hours for his engines..... Which last time I looked was going to be about the time it took him to sell one despite listing it at about 17 different price points.

What people who make these longevity claims miss is that the  ultimate life of an engine is not so much dependent on it's precision engineering and tolerances, it's dependent on it's filtration.

Particles both in the air and in the oil make a HUGE difference to the wear factor of an engine.  Studies have been done by engine, Oil and filter  manufactures that conclusively prove this so worrying about the mechanicals of and engine and then claiming extensive life from one which does not have an oil filter or a rudimentary one and just a single paper filter rather than something at least with an oil bath type is overlooking the fact of what extended life time is really all about.

I was recently reading a test done on engines in a Mine. By super filtering the oil and Multi stage filtering the air, They extended the engine life of the machinery four fold and were saving $216K a year in maintence costs just on the smaller Loader fleet they had.

Those of us running engines without good filtering are not getting the best engine life. The advantage with a stationary engine is that space and packaging is not so much a consideration as it is with vehicles.  An oil bath or cyclone air filter would also do a lot of good particularly for engines in Dusty environments doing long hours.

A concept I have always had in my head but never tried would be to bubble the air through a column of water. This should  clean it well and also add a lot of humidity which is also helpful in reducing intake air temps and engine cleaning. Might reduce intake noise as well.
 Never seen or heard of it being done and never set it up be maybe I might try it one day If I can think a practical way of doing it.

For an engine to go these extended periods, It would need a LOT in the way of air and Oil  filtration no matter how good the mechanicals were.

Tanman

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2019, 02:54:36 PM »
Well if they do turn out better than the average listeroid I would be interested in picking one up in 2-3 years for sure. Iíll be moving to a better environment to have a listeroid type setup at my place. Excited to wait watch and see.
Yanmar L100-5KW set
Chinese 1115-8KW stamford
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

AdeV

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2019, 05:45:38 PM »
So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.

I suspect there's a couple of main reasons the Chinese haven't taken them on:

1 - they've already got a bazillion Kubota clones in all HP ranges from 3 to 23 (ish), and there's at least 100 bazillion units already out there working their dieselly arses off day and night (often both). Developing a CS clone would be pointless.

2 - the EPA thing... China is a far more developed economy than India these days, so making a "box of bits" which claims to be one thing in order to "sneak" past certain enviornmental laws... well, it's just not worth their bother. They'll never sell in volume, unlike the Kubotalikes.

I'd quite like to import a container load of those Kubota type engines here to the UK, but I'm stuffed by the "CE Mark" legislation, which requires thousands of dollars of paperwork, reports, drawings and so forth, just to "prove" that they aren't dangerous or something, not to mention thousands of pounds of VAT and duty (all payable up front)...
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

glort

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2019, 11:13:47 PM »

Good points Ade.
I have seen pics of used walking tractors in a yard which looks like it's an acre or more. Those engines are everywhere all over Asia and really a lot more versatile than  the Lister type.  I suspect Longevity wise they would do every bit as well as a Lister type.

The Changfa's Et al also have one HUGE advantage over the lister style.... They routinely have a headlight Fitted so when you are coming  home on your 2 Wheeled walking tractor with the Cart attached after a long day in the rice Paddy, you don't hit a cow on the road in the dark.

Bet the Lister Boffins never thought to take that into account!   :laugh:

I'd not be surprised in the least if they started Putting USB ports on these engines so farmers could charge their Phones.

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2019, 08:30:46 PM »

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. To put it in perspective years ago I had an 88 F250 truck with a 7.3L IDI diesel. I put 500,000 miles on that engine with zero failures that required road service on the engine. Batteries and tires yes but never anything broken in the engine. The only parts I ever installed on that motor was a set of glow plugs and I replaced a dripping injector, just one. 500,000 miles and maybe an average speed of 30 mph is about 17,000 hours of run time. Maintenance yes, but no failures. That V8 7.3 was much much more complicated than a listeroid and it weighed maybe twice as much, but put out 20X the power.  When I sold it because the body was shot the motor was humming like new and burning no oil. It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.