Author Topic: Foundation  (Read 372 times)

John (Boston)

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Foundation
« on: April 18, 2019, 05:47:55 PM »
Hello Everyone,

Well, planning a foundation for the Listeroid genset.  Should get started on it next month - we'll see...  Looks like itís going to be about 48 long X 30 wide X 36 high (inches) Ė about 4000 pounds of concrete.  I'm planning to use fiber reinforced concrete and rebar.  Depending on what I find when I dig, it could be a little taller (so, even heavier).  Where I am you hit granite pretty quickly.

My plan is to mount the engine right to the block (no subframe at all).  I'll grout it right to the concrete using little soft wood (pine) wedges and machinery grout.  Iím going to use fine thread nine sixteenths threaded rod (grade five) to mount the engine (and the generator).

Iím not going to embed the rod in the concrete, but instead I'm going to "through-bolt" it via long clearance holes in the concrete.  Plan is to go about eighteen inches into the concrete with the bolt holes.

That way, if I should ever break a bolt I can change it.  It also gives the rods plenty of stretch room.  Access to the lower nuts will be through little "tunnels" cast into the block from the sides.  With this much mass, though I really don't think I'll break a bolt.  I'm hoping there won't be any up and down motion with 4000 pounds firmly tied and grouted to the Listeroid's butt.

I've read where others have drilled out the mounting tabs on the engine base to accommodate bigger bolts but I'm nervous removing any more material from an already fragile looking casting.  Nine sixteenths fits pretty nicely as is.

I also found where guys were talking about the top surface of the tabs not being machined flat.  Strangely, my tabs are milled and have a circular depression cut into the tops of them.  It's a crude cut but seems pretty flat.

Last Summer I mixed around 35 bags of concrete (80 pounders) all by hand with a hoe.  My back says "you're NOT doing THAT again!!"

I already bought a concrete mixer.  It's so old that it has a flat-belt drive pulley (sixteen inch diameter by three inch wide crowned pulley) - might as well do this in style...  Don't know much about the mixer but she's a pretty heavy one - I think she'll do two bags at a time.

Sadly, the original engine (probably hit and miss) is gone.  I'll have to graft in a modern replacement.  I already fitted the mixer up to a carry-all so I can move it around on the three point hitch on the tractor.  I'd set it up to run right off the PTO but I need the tractor to load the mixer (so I don't have to lift the bags).  Hmmm...  I guess I really DO need two tractors after-all - can't have too many tractors you know...

Like a lot of my projects, first you have to work on the equipment you're going to use to do the project.  Then you can work on the actual project.

-John (Boston)
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mike90045

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2019, 04:05:55 AM »
If you are using fiber in the concrete, you aren't supposed to need rebar.   Rebar is a long term weak point in concrete, if it's not rust proofed, it will eventually rust, and the the expanding rust is stronger than concrete and starts cracking the concrete. 

Where you introduce your thru-bolts and "tunnels" you will be creating weak spots in the pour.   Either increase the sack mix in that area, or figure how to prevent the holes from being stress points.  Allow for LARGE washers to spread the load to the concrete.

I poured the pad on rebar (nobody here knows about fiber reinforcement) and drilled and used epoxy anchors with SS all-thread embedded in the the epoxy. I hit one rebar and had to use a rebar cutting drill bit to get through it.  I was bummed.

I used scrap lengths of hardwood flooring as buffer between metal and concrete.  They were about 3/8 thick and the right width.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 04:12:56 AM by mike90045 »

38ac

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2019, 01:21:06 PM »
Your mounting needs will vary greatly depending on how well the engine is balanced.  Nothing will hold it forever if it is badly out of balance. There is no need to fret the holes in the base. If 1/2" won't hold it you have other issues to fix.
Your approch sounds excellent, a lot more detailed than most installations.   My 1115 /15 kw set is anchored to a large slab in the shop.  It broke an anchor bolt the first time I started it, must have been defective. I had to cut the other bolts off flush. Move it 10 inches and re anchor it., pain in the neck. Has been good since
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BruceM

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2019, 03:19:26 PM »
After trying it, I'm sold on 38ac's method of correcting the flywheels and matching them before trial and error balancing. Adding equal weight at the counterbalance for a hopper or opposite the counterbalance location for a slider. Results quickly in a smooth runner that won't be a strain on any base, even my 15 year old "temporary" wood base.

LowGear

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2019, 05:21:15 PM »
16 mm bolts just sound light to me but you gentlemen do have the advantage of experience.  You couldn't have just drilled it out and glued another one in?

I hope you give that concrete 28 days to cure before pounding with the Lister jack hammer.  Treated as in painted with a quality primer?

Wouldn't a wood "gasket" absorb much of the sound?
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saba

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 10:06:11 PM »
Just an idea they sell mega blocks/ anti terror blocks, big one is 1,60 meter/0,8/0,8.  2400kg and here in holland 100 euro/120 dollar.
Had a simmilar plan like you once but changed my mind in the end. I went the flexible route.

cheaper than doing yourelf i gues

greetings bernhard

sirpedrosa

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2019, 01:04:08 AM »
Hi Bernhard

The added value of this forum is DIY.

The improvisation is the key of this forum. Experience says: "lets see how it runs", the "idea is crazy but it works",  "the wheel has already been invented, but this one is rounder".

Have you tried to make your custom block? And after publish the recipe!

Cheers
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ajaffa1

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Re: Foundation
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2019, 10:01:31 AM »
Hi John, I spent half a lifetime pouring concrete foundations for construction and industrial purposes. In my experience the best way to achieve what you require is to have a 3/4" steel plate cut for your engine to sit on. Mark out where the holes need to go, drill and tap the holes to take suitable sized bolts, grease and install the bolts. Now get some rebar and bend it into u shapes, weld these to the bottom of the plate, the more the merrier. Now pour your concrete and press the mounting plate into it, make sure it is level in both directions. Poker the concrete with a vibrating poker to evacuate any air and ensure the concrete has completely surrounded the rebar, check that the steel plate is still level in both directions and allow the concrete to set.

Once the concrete has set you can undo the bolts and mount your engine, in the event that a bolt breaks you can drill a hole in the center of the bolt and extract it with an easy-out before replacing it.

Bob