Author Topic: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book  (Read 774 times)

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« on: March 08, 2019, 08:47:01 AM »
Hi Fellow Lister Lovers
First post.
I have recently got myself a Lister 1/9 6.25kva Startomatic complete with base, original fuel tank. cast iron silencer, control panel and water tank etc etc.
It was an almost 2 tonne truck and trailer load on a 650 km 2 day round trip to dismantle and collect it.
It was made in 1951 and ran a sheep station homestead in New South Wales. As far as I know it is in original condition and has had no major work done on it before.
It's going but with reduced compression and some piston slap but it's turning out power.
I have obtained enough new mainly original and NOS parts to rebuild the engine:  piston, rings, gudgeon pin, cylinder sleeve, con rod with big and small end bearings, main bearings, fuel filter, gaskets, valves and all the attendant head bits etc etc.
It is going back to work when finished to provide back up battery charging  to wind and solar power on an off grid farm on the south coast of Victoria.
I would dearly love to get copies of the original documentation before starting work.
Can anyone out there help me please?
Regards
Listeria (Jim)

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2019, 11:56:32 AM »
Hi Listeria (Jim) and welcome, well done for finding yourself a very desirable piece of equipment. I have some experience of startomatic  machines but this one is new to me. I would recommend that you contact Gary at Diesel Electric Services in the USA, he will be able to provide you with manuals and spare parts. If I can help with the electrics please feel free to contact me.

Good luck with the restoration and please post some pictures, sad old guys like me prefer them to pornography! :laugh:

Bob

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2019, 04:27:18 AM »
Hi Bob
Haven't forgotten about you. I made contact with Gary at DES, waiting to hear back. Tried several times to send you a picture of the new toy. Just get an error message, timed out or attachment too large even though it's within the size limit stated. Anyway we're stripping it down tomorrow, been busy with family weddings etc till now. Collected all the parts, tools and some documention. I'll let you know how we get on. I'd  love to post a video of her first start after rebuild.
Cheers
Listeria
(Jim)

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2019, 10:40:58 AM »
Hi Jim, you put a family wedding before a Lister rebuild? Shame on you!  :laugh:

I am looking forward to the details of the tear down and what you find. If I can help in anyway please let me know.

Bob

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 11:09:36 AM »
Hi again
Got a bit of a problem.
The journal on the crank on the JP 1/( is worn, there's a round patch about 1.5 cm in diam which seem to be showing different coloured metal through the silver and some patches where it's slightly pitted, might be able to polish them out.
I doesn't seem to be out of round but the jaws on my digital caliper whilst they open wide enough to get around the journal but not quite long enough to get around to give a true diameter.
The big end bearing is worn and pitted.
I've got a new genuine con rod with big and small end bearings and I've also got a genuine main bearing (End Cover) and a main bearing (Gear End) both -0.020 Thou.
I reckon I'm going to bite the bullet and get the crank ground and replace the main bearings (Plan B) as well as Plan A to redo the piston, liner, and the valves etc as well.
She's apparently been been untouched  for 70 years.
It will take a bit longer and cost a bit more but what the hell she's worth it!
I think I'll need to get bigger bearings for the big end once the crank has been seen to.
I'd send some pictures but this forum times me out with my slow farm country ADSL internet connection.
Cheers
Listeria

 

listard-jp2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2019, 06:45:20 PM »
It is possible that the differing colours on the bearing journal are due to the effects of electrolytic corrosion.

Be aware that if you decide to have the crank ground, because of the design, you will also need to have an undersize crankshaft timing gear to the corresponding size of the undersize regrind.
Also on a single cylinder JP there will be 3 main bearings ( two on the timing gear end with gear between them.

I have some genuine NOS -030'' undersize timing gears if you need one.

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2019, 11:53:18 PM »
Thanks for the sound advice.

"It's not what you don't know that gets you into trouble, it's usually what you don't know that you don't know that does it!"

I've got some photos/video of the crank.
I'm going to show them to another grey haired enthusiast tomorrow, he also doubles as a professional diesel mechanic with all the gear to deal with the crank.
Thanks for the offer of the timing gear, I'll be in touch soon.


 

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2019, 11:36:46 AM »
The diesel mechanic who saw the video of the journal rotating in situ said it should be ground.
The engineer who's going to recondition the crank has gone fishing up north for 2 weeks.
Would it be possible to grind the journal and the end bearing sections of the crankshaft and leave those sections of the shaft with the central bearing and timing gear intact?
I hadn't planned to completely dismantle it but if it has to be.....
Getting the flywheel off worries me, I've got it up on a couple pallets under a lift point with a 2T endless chain hoist.  I'll make a clamp to grip it and hopefully not drop it on my foot!
Any practical pointers or helpful hints on getting the crankshaft out would be greatly appreciated.

listard-jp2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 12:26:20 PM »
/\ The crankshaft timing gear is located between the two flywheel end main bearing bushes, so only an undersize timing gear will do.

The favorite bodgers approach is to braze up the i/d of the gear and bore it out to the required undersize.

This is not the preferred solution as the brazing process is likely to cause the gear to distort, and you will also soften the gear teeth.

Removing the flywheel on a JP is far easier than say a CS, as it is on a taper, just be sure to keep the nut on the end of the crank before you try and pull the flywheel off the taper.

You will also need to remove the camshaft gear wheel before attempting to remove the crank, as the flywheel inner main bearing housing will foul on it.

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 05:32:36 PM »
I would think that a machine shop could make you an insert to suit a smaller crankshaft diameter, bore the gear to suit, shrink it in place and lock it with a couple of grub screws or similar drilled & tapped half-and-half in the insert and the gear.  I doubt the drive part of the gear is subject to very big loads and it would be a shame to heat it if not necessary.  That would provide a local solution, too.

Good luck

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2592
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 05:47:21 PM »
I would check that crank journal with a micrometer very carefully for roundness, and not rely on someone's impression via video.  It's always easy to say grind it, but given the implications, I'd make damn sure it's necessary.  These are slow speed engines and will tolerate some minor out of tolerance quite well.

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 11:06:44 AM »
Thanks everyone.
I will get a good micrometer tomorrow and carefully assess the journal for any evidence of ovality.
It would be great to be able avoid reconditioning the crankshaft
She will be going into her own shed and working for a living, keeping our batteries charged when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
Our Selectronic SP Pro Inverter / Charger logs all inputs. The current generator spends a lot of time idle and then becomes important at times like now, in our autumn, however last year we only logged a total of 75 hours of generator time.
So the JP 1/9 Startomatic won't be flogged too hard.
At a liter an hour, 12 months use would not even empty the 120 liter original fuel tank with it's clever float chain and sloping base.
If the journal isn't significantly out of round and the the big end bearing is replaced then maybe a bit of superficial scruffiness on the journal won't matter.
What do you reckon?

listard-jp2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 12:57:04 PM »
I would think that a machine shop could make you an insert to suit a smaller crankshaft diameter, bore the gear to suit, shrink it in place and lock it with a couple of grub screws or similar drilled & tapped half-and-half in the insert and the gear.  That would provide a local solution, too.

That might indeed be possible (and as you say would be a local solution), but as you can see from the attached link, it might be tight by the time you have machined out the bore of the gear to take a suitable insert.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-LISTER-JP-JK-JS-PINION-023-00539/261435704921

OP: if you dont get a suitable resolution on this issue, I have a spare NOS -0.030" undersize JP crankshaft timing gear. I didn't say anything sooner as I was unsure I could find it, but I now have.

With this gear you could have your crank ground to say -0.010" and then have the gear bored out to suit. Also I have a set of  JP2/JP1 -0.060" main bearings which you could bore out to suit your regrind diameter. These are just the bearing bushes, so you will need to be able to accurately press them into your old housings.

Not trying to twist your arm into buying more parts than you need, but I suggest that you also closely inspect the group of three bevel gears when you have this engine apart, as they do wear on the teeth, particuarly if the injection pump gear has worn in its corresponding bush.

Out of interest, does your JP1 have a flange mount fuel injection pump, or a fuel pump with an integral camshaft (this would make it an early engine).


Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2019, 07:41:03 AM »
HI Listard jp2
It's a flange mounted fuel pump
Plated: BPFID 705S61

Listeria

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Lister JP 1/9 Startomatic manual / Instruction book
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2019, 07:55:19 AM »
Sorry
Finger fumble premature post
Flange mounted fuel pump
Plated:
BPFID 705S61 (I think))
Serial number 16248.F (I think)

I've been over the journal with 2 different vernier micrometers at TDC, BDC and half way in between X 2.
At each rotation I measured at 4 points along the length of the shaft
It is of uniform diameter to within 0.001 of an inch.

So I reckon I'll be able to leave the crankshaft in place, Hallelujah!

Next challenge, getting the old cylinder sleeve out.
Any helpful advice?
Thanks all
L