Author Topic: Tensioner or Rail mounting.  (Read 681 times)

glort

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Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« on: February 18, 2019, 08:20:22 AM »

I'm wanting to hook up my 170 Kg Induction motor and my 70 Kg engine  with belt drive and build a mounting frame for them.
Thinking of wood as I think it will clang a lot less and I have some good size material for the job. also have some over size rectangular box.

Mountings on motor and engine are substantially different so one will require cross rails.
I'm thinking instead of mounting one on a rail so it can slide for belt tension ( and work loose as well) I would hard mount both and use a tensioner on the belt to take up the slack.

I was also thinking of a spring tensioner off a car cam belt or an accessories drive  but could also go a fixed tensioner.
The belt is an A series on both pulleys but only a single on the engine drive and 6" on the engine and a 5" on the motor.  Motor is 1440 RPM so thinking of a smaller 4" twin so I can get the engine revs up a bit onto the power curve ( engine is 2600 RPM rated) and twin belts to carry the load.

I think the bolt down both sides and use a tensioner will be a lot easier , stronger and require less maintence.

Surprised the motor only has A's but i'm not going to try and change it that's for sure even though it is a taper lock.

What's the consensus? Rail or tensioner belt adjustment, spring or fixed if tensioner?

oldgoat

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 10:28:29 AM »
Before you stick with the single A section belt have a glance at this for speeds size a nd service factor
                                                                                                             https://www.bestorq.com/Library/.../V-Belt%20Quick%20Selection%20Guide.pdf


glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 12:26:02 PM »

HTTP Error 404.0 - Not Found
The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

I'll try to find another. It's a good idea to check them out though that said, I have a shipload of same size belts so if I do go through them a bit, not the end of the world.

The speed won't be quick which is a plus, the pulleys not too tight which also helps but 12 kilo on a single A seems a bit much to me, I -think- a couple of A's should be OK. I think a tensioner reduces belt capacity from memory though.

Not really sure now what a Grid connected IMAG will do? I'd guess 9-10 Kw, definitely going to be less than 12 that's for sure.  6 kilo, 4 Hp sounds OK for an A belt and if it's less than that, should be fine I think. 

oldgoat

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 01:13:17 PM »
Bugger seems to have disappeared since last night. Must be using the NBN or Telstra

glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 10:27:14 PM »

Might be more to that than you know.
My internet has been total garbage latley. have to pre load everything I watch on YT before I can view it and even had trouble getting emails.
Just about to ring them reluctantly as I know I'll have to deal with some mouthpiece robot from a call centre in Rajakot who will insist the network is fine and it must be my machine that is the problem as waste my time asking me to do dumb obvious things like reboot the modem and the machine.
It seems better since last nigh so I might procrastinate a bit longer and see how it goes.

I have no idea what service I'm on other than a shit one which is all that is available in the area.
An NBN guy came and did the install but they keep telling me NBN is not in the area yet but is coming soon which we get letters confirming that and Hyping up it's arrival.  In May.  Was supposed to be here September which is Typical of the whole NBN criminally mis managed fiasco.

Used to be on Optus cable getting 98 MBS consistently. Now this garbage service gives me 6-8 Mbs and costs twice as much. Cable runs right past the place but with the idiotic gubbermint rules, Can't connect to anything BUT NBN now.... Even though cable is here and NBN is not.

Nice cool day today. If I can get rid of this painful headache I woke up with, I'll get out there and do some work on the gen setup.

oldgoat

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2019, 10:47:47 AM »
I do know a bit about it I worked for PMG Telecom Telstra for 30 years and when I was made redundant at  age 50 I heaved a sigh of relief because the bean counters were running the show and not technically qualified people. The people in charge had forgotten that it was a service industry and decided  P.R. was more important than a reliable network. This means we end up paying higher service charges or cop substandard service from a deteriorating copper network which everybody outside major towns still has.                                                                                                           At the moment NBN own Telstra's copper network but have no workforce to maintain it subcontracting this to Telstra with a decimated poorly trained staff or whever will do it cheapest.
 
Have to stop just fell off my soapbox

glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2019, 11:35:41 AM »

Valid Comments.
The whole country is in a complete mess atm.  The grid is on the edge of falling over to the point they are discussing what to do if they have to cold boot the entire system. The fact they even see that as a remote possibility is a huge worry.  Some of us might think we are being prepared by setting up or own gennys but that's not going to be much help in getting food, water and fuel from all the places that won't have a volt to run them.

Water is running short, again. They put the blame on people using too much and lack of rain but never take into account they are brining in 250K more people a year plus about the same in natural growth but they haven't put in any more water storage in about 50 Years. Oh yeah, We have a Desal plant that costs about a million a week to run, paid to a private company of course that will provide a bit of water to one part of the city. Unfortunately that sucks down power at a rate hard to comprehend which makes the grid problem worse.

Then we have the communications problem.
I can't get mobile coverage in my own home and neither can anyone else in the area.  Internet is a farce with NBN and I get cut off every 2nd time I ring my father on his land line in the country.

For all the modern progress and technology, things were better over all 20 years ago.
Least you knew what was possible and what wasn't and you weren't frustrated by things not working that bloody well should but don't.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Hopefully tomorrow will be cool again and I'll be feeling a lot better. Was really crap all day today.  Maybe I'll double up on the pills tonight. Can only Kill me if they don't work but either way I'll feel better.

I think I'll go for the tensioner option although I was also thinking of a pivoting  system  where the genny lent it's own weight against the belt for tension.
That might take a bit of working out as I don't think I need 170 Kg of force on the belt and I would have to work out what I would neex and the maths in how to set up the pivot lengths as well.  Thought I could use a bolt as a stop to limit travel/ tension but then the thing will rattle on the  bolt and the plate and drive me Nuts.

I think securing the Engine and Motor  nice and firm to the frame and then using a spring tensioner  on the belt will be the easiest.

AdeV

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2019, 05:10:30 PM »

Just about to ring them reluctantly as I know I'll have to deal with some mouthpiece robot from a call centre in Rajakot who will insist the network is fine and it must be my machine that is the problem as waste my time asking me to do dumb obvious things like reboot the modem and the machine.


Oh, I feel you there... I had an issue with my internet router a while back; it would work fine for between 5 mins - 2 hours, then crap out and need rebooting. So you can imagine the conversation with the call centre....

Quote
Me: My router fails a few minutes after it's been rebooted.
CC: Ok sir, Sir I need you to be rebooting your router now sir please.
Me: It'll work after I reboot it, but it'll fail a little later on.
CC: Yes, sir, you can reboot your router please now, sir.
Me: *sigh* OK, I'm rebooting it.
[a few moments later]
CC: Ah yes we can see your router is connecting now. I have fixed your problem thank you for your call good bye.
Me: *fuming*

Third time I just lied and said I'd rebooted it (and lied when he said reboot my computer). They sent me a new router.  ;D Guess what.... that fixed the problem!
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

mike90045

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 07:00:11 PM »
I love the tensioner spring pulley in my truck, makes changing the serpentine belt all of a 3 minute job. Then it's good for another 80K miles.   120A alternator, air con, power steering & water pump. on the belt, figure a good 20 hp there

glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 08:24:51 PM »

Third time I just lied and said I'd rebooted it (and lied when he said reboot my computer). They sent me a new router.  ;D Guess what.... that fixed the problem!

We literally got the new remote for the sat TV last night after my wife did the same thing.  They would not believe it was the remote making the box go nuts intermittently without being touched and she got sick of putting it in the drawer so the thing wouldn't set it off.  When they asked if it was working now......noooo...... New remote, no more problems all last night. 

glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 08:39:55 PM »
120A alternator, air con, power steering & water pump. on the belt, figure a good 20 hp there

That's what I'm thinking.  This will be A belts but no different. Always keep the tension on them so there is no slipping.  Also I think much better to bolt the engine and motor in place where they are solidly Locked up and can't creep on rails given the touque they will be subjected to.
Only question is will timber be good enough or given the weight and size of the units should I go to steel?

I laugh when I see these guys into noise makers... errr, big Sound systems where they are running 6X 350A alternators. They use regular single serpentine belts and wonder why the things turn to spaghetti every 3rd time the crank the Noise up.... while running the AC and everything else on the vehicle.

Don't take much to look up a chart and see they are running them about 3 times capacity and all those extra bends they are now doing aren't helping any either.

Only problem with serpentine's is the Pulleys here are Waay expensive and the belts are a lot more then the V's as well.

38ac

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 10:06:07 PM »
And truth be known the V belt loss vs serp belt is so little different that it would take 24/7 operation, careful load management and fuel measurement to prove a savings.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

BruceM

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 10:37:37 PM »
+1
I also think improved efficiency claims are mostly marketing fantasy.

I'm a convert to B-vee belts instead of serp.  B belts have a wide enough section on the inside to ride flat on a CS type flywheel, and the cheaper B-Vee pulleys don't require as much belt tension, so generator bearing life will be better.  My serp setup (without idler/tensioner) requires very high tension to avoid chirping.  I used  a B vee on my neighbor's DES 8/1 because I wasn't confident about our final engine rpm...now I'm sold on them.

I think serpentine belts are great for what they were designed for, multiple driven accessories.
They save a lot of space and some cost in that application.

Slotted bases sure are simple to build, and belt adjustment via loosened bolts and rubber mallet works for me.  I haven't adjusted mine for years. 



dieselspanner

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2019, 07:16:52 AM »
I mounted my genhead with slots and a couple of 10mm bolts tapped into tags, welded to the rails to act as tensioners. It took a few minuets extra whilst knocking up the frame, makes tensioning and more importantly parallel alignment easy. After adjustment I locked them into position with a plain nut.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

glort

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Re: Tensioner or Rail mounting.
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2019, 10:30:29 AM »

Spent some hours scratching my head and walking back and forth through the jun... supplies to see what I had and which way to jump.
Gave the idea of a timber frame away. Done them before and never been happy with them. Most likely due to my lack of carpentry and other skills,  No matter how hard I bolt stuff together or what size bolts I use, the things always come loose and flex.

I have some REALLY heavy rectangular section up there I was thinking of using but I thought it would be too much overkill and I'll save that for if I ever Do something with the Mercedes engine.

I came in for a cuppa and to remove the splinters from said head scratching and watched some  vids  looking for mounting frame Ideas.  I saw some people using C channel and thought that's the go.  Next looked up available sizes and the stuff is all suited for bridge construction.  Found some up the shed that was 100x40 x 7mm thick  and thought that's going to cost and weigh a ton.  Still undecided if I want the thing on wheels or not but that would be preferable till I finally decide where I want to put this.  Also thought when I am ready to Bolt it down, I have a heap of that heavy Rectangular box section so I can just bolt that to the concrete and put a couple of cross rails and I'm there.

Then the 2V light flickered Dimly and finally started to glow....
Spotted my old hand trolley... pneumatic tyres, right length, workable width, lay it down and put a castor wheel on the front and a rope or handle and I'm there.  Light weight but should be plenty strong given the things capacity is more than the weight of the engine and  motor combined.
Dug out a heap of channel I found before Christmas in one of my favorite engineering shops scrap bit.... all good.

I'll fix mount the Motor and i'll need to put the engine offset to line up the pulleys any way so I spose I can make the engine mount a double slider for alignment and tension. I was amazed when I saw how far off the pulleys on the motor and engine were and that the motor pulley was right at the end of the shaft. I got an allen key, undid the taper lock, tapped the  inner right up to the end of the key and put the screws back in.  Couldn't have been easier although I was expecting the thing to be fixed in place like it was welded.  Moved it in about 6 Cm so helped a lot with keeping the weights centered.
Got to love taper locks!

What I'm thinking is to put the engine on rubber mounts to dampen the vibrations.  Anyone done  this or got any feedback on it?
There are plenty of car engine mounts that would work I looked up and I think this may be helpful as last time I screwed  this beast down it broke 1/4"  Coachbolts.

The end of the trolley will also be a good place to weld a frame to hold the control panel  and on the other end there will be room for the starting battery.

Tomorrow I'll go look at the mounts ( depending on what feedback I get tonight.) and see about another pulley for the engine.
There is a 5" single A on it now so I'll get a 2 or a 4 in 4"  the same as the motor but I'll look up a calculator with a thought of a 3" .

The motor has a 4" and is a 1440  Rpm. The engine has a 5" and is 2600 RPM so I think I'll be spinning the motor way too fast for the engine to get up on it's power curve with the 5" and maybe the 4. I hate running engines fast but in this case I'll be over driving way too much with the current setup and I very much doubt I'll get a single A to grip anyway.

Might look at the cost of a B series taper lock for the motor as well.  Like Bruce I'm a fan of the B series because they just hold so much more power with no fuss and like Bruce I have also found the tension  can be so much less.  I put B series pulleys on the  little plough I changed the engine on last year and even though it's engaged by tensioning the belt, it never slips or has to be pulled on hard to bite hard.