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Author Topic: Laidong and alternative fuels  (Read 658 times)

Tanman

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Laidong and alternative fuels
« on: January 28, 2019, 05:10:48 AM »
Does anyone have any experience using alternative fuels with the Chinese horizontals? The reason I'm asking is because I found a dealer out of Canada that has Laidong's for almost half the price of his listeroids. I'm wondering if the Chinese horizontals are as versatile with fuels as the 6/1's are? My main objective is a reliable, versatile (fuels), and not so thirsty backup generator for my Subaru Robin 5000kw diesel (which is very thirsty under load).
Hatz 1B40
Chinese 1115
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

ajaffa1

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 07:37:49 AM »
Hi Tanman, sounds to me like a very sensible option. Our old mate Glort has several of these and likes them. Since it is only a single cylinder engine it will have a simple plunger type fuel injection pump which would run well on alternative fuels, I`m not sure if they have any electronic exhaust emission monitoring equipment but I`m sure it could be overridden. I believe that Old Seagull Man is currently experimenting with one of these coupled to a ST5 generator head, you might want to check out a couple of his posts.

Bob

Tanman

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 04:31:40 PM »
Thanks Bob,

Also, I found a pellet mill company out of Wisconsin that utilizes 22, 15, and 8hp horizontal Chinese diesels for their mills and I just sent them an email. It sounds like they would be willing to sell me just an engine. It sounds like you can run them a little slower and use a little less power and fuel so I'm between the 15hp and 8hp?
Hatz 1B40
Chinese 1115
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

BruceM

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 04:42:55 PM »
The problem with the high speed horizontals is that they are extremely noisy.  If you're deaf, no problem, but anyone with normal hearing will be miserable listening to them running for long periods.  I wouldn't have on on my property.  If my neighbor had one, I'd have to sabotage it.

Thus the popularity of the low speed Lister CS engines for off grid folks who must hear the generator for long periods of time.  It's all about the quality of sound, even more than sound level.

The Honda Inverter/generator units are delightfully quiet.  I had a man camping on my property who used one behind a hill and I could not hear it. 


38ac

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 05:53:42 PM »
I bought a Laidong 1115 from John Ferguson before he sold out to Jim Calder. I have no experiance running fuels other tjsn diesel but those engines are so far above all other Chinese in quality that they exist in their own relm. They still make some racket.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

old seagull man

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 06:03:20 PM »
My ZS195 runs on old clean chip oil; got about 4 hours on it just playing about.

And there not to loud, at all, check out my video one day, not to loud and not a rough as everyone lead me to believe running a 1750 rpm.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vOby0QngWw&feature=youtu.be

mike90045

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 08:15:26 PM »
The problem with the high speed horizontals is that they are extremely noisy.  .....

Is that because of mechanical clatter and banging, or poor mufflers /intake  silencer ?

Tanman

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 09:31:21 PM »
I just got off the phone with the chap in WI, apparently they are importing these as pellet mills. The horizontals are hooked up to a belt driven mill on a steel frame and being imported that way. How is this possible?

Here is their website: http://www.pelletmasters.com
Look under all products, pellet mills, diesel powered.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 09:32:59 PM by Tanman »
Hatz 1B40
Chinese 1115
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

ajaffa1

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 10:55:15 PM »
I have no idea how they are doing this. There are a couple of possibilities, the first is that the Chinese have upped their game and got EPA approval, the second is that they are being imported illegally and the EPA hasn`t noticed. It is just possible that there is some special exemption to the EPA rules for forestry or agricultural machinery.

My advice would be not to ask too many questions and take advantage while you can.

Bob

glort

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 03:56:23 AM »

The China Horozontals are excellent with veg Fuel.
Ran Tens of hours on them with it and never a problem. The only thing that has ever happened is when i put the engines away a couple of years with veg in the IP and it stuck them up a bit. The pumps are so simple to pull apart and clean, even I can do it. Actually my first horozontal was stuck when I got it from the test  the guy I bought it from gave it on Diesel so I had to pull the pump and clean it from the start.

Few things I note from your post.

I wouldn't expect a China Diesel to be any more economical than the Robin. They are all much the same and if anything i'd predict the  China engine would use a bit more fuel. While I guess you want the china to run veg, no reason you couldn't run the robin on it as well. They all have the same type pumps and as long as the oil is clean and DRY, you won't have any probs.
I have run China Vertical Cylinder yanmar copies on veg, I have a few Ruggerini's, Lombardini's  and a Hatz and they all run fine on veg and are all the same basic plunger pump design.

The horozontals are extremely rugged engines though and I would personaly buy all I could find but they seem pretty rare here although I am always on the lookout for them.
They are noisy, no 2 ways about that but there are ways around it.  Most people think it's the exhaust but the OEM Mufflers are quite good. Like listers and other diesels, the main noise apart from mechanical clatter is the INTAKE. That's a big factor in the noise the horizontals make but not so hard to get around.  i have read of some people putting new Mufflers on the intake and this seems a good way of doing things.  Just stick the air cleaner on the end. I have modified some engines to use Car air boxes which often have a lot of baffling and resnance tubes which probably would do much on a diesel but they still make the engines much quieter and the size of the air filter elements would mean they never breathed so well and a filter change would never be required.

I think you will want a well isolated or well soundproofed shed to put one in though for long hour operation. the mechanical clatter IS significant and the only way I know around that is soundproofing the enclosure.

I have put a drip water feed on my little horozontal and when I took the head off it last time, everything in the cylinder was so clean I would not have believed it were not polished with a clean rag if I had seen pictures from someone else. Not a spec of carbon on the head, piston crown or anywhere else.  Pretty funny considering the comments I have had on other sites crapping on about ruining my engine running veg oil. 

WI is a great thing to use with any fuel in any diesel, alternative fuel or not.

My Little horozontal is a 3.5HP 165. It will outpull every 5 and 6 HP diesel I have including the lister and will do it without smoking.  The things are either very under rated or have very big balls. I haven't done much with the 5.5 as yet. Just got pulleys back from the brother in law after a years wait only to find he did exactly what I asked him to do, not what I needed in practice!  :embarassed: Going to have to plan B the drive setup on that one, probably going to go with the OEM pulley driving a jackshaft which I will then be able to fit standard pulleys to and different types so I can run a serpentine alternator and a V belt Genny or induction motor.

I would go for the bigger engine and under drive it as you suggested.
This will make it quieter and less stressed.  The wives tales you hear about Diesels having to be run hard is a load of very old outdated wives tales IMHO.  Commercial diesels are commonly under driven so they are less stressed and have longer lives.
navy patrol boats, generators, earth moving equipment and mining engines are just some things I know of where engines are very deliberately oversized and under driven for longevity and reliability.

You could run a horizontal at lower revs but higher gearing and the load for the speed will still be making the engine work just with less wear.  I do all my own gennys this way and vever had an engine give trouble because it wasn't thrashing it's guts out.  Do a Water injection setup and you could probably idle the thing for a year on veg and not have a single problem with any sort of fouling or glazing or other much touted but never illustrated examples of happening.

I love the China Horizontals and I believe they have quite a few advantages over a lister. The drawbacks are pretty easily over come. Easier than tearing down a Roid and making it right that's for sure and a lot cheaper too. 
But again, no reason at all the Robin couldn't run on veg as well.

Not that i'm saying don't buy a China horizontal. Every Diy'er should have at least 2!   :laugh:

Tanman

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 04:51:21 AM »
Thank you Glort, I wasn’t sure if I could run veggie oil in my vertical. My Subaru robin is a late model that is fitted with a Hatz 1B40 that uses about .8 gallons an hour of fuel under average load, what do you think the laidong's they sell over at justliveoffgrid.com are burning at the lower rpm/hp range (they say 14hp on the low end) I wouldn't mind running it around 10hp/3-4kw if that is efficient and can get me down to .5gal an hour or less?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:04:38 AM by Tanman »
Hatz 1B40
Chinese 1115
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

glort

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 05:34:41 AM »

My Hatz i a 1B30 so exact same engine family in the smaller version.
Definitely no problem with running veg oil, runs much quieter and smoother in fact.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree trying to get fuel efficiency from these engines.  It's not the engine or the speed you run them at that's going to make any worthwhile difference, it's the load you put on the things.

They all run similar fuel consumption. They are not cars that get different MPG through weight, aero, gear ratios, differing engine designs etc. They are dumb, blunt instruments that all do 99% the same job with the same inefficiency.
To be rude, If you think you can get ever get a reduction of 1/4? of a gallon ( best part of 1L?) economy improvement between one small engine to another with the same load, I think you are being naively optimistic.

The force at play here is not the engine, it's the work you want it to do that is the completely overwhelming factor.

If you are looking at straight out consumption, veg oil will make it worse. It has less energy per litre than diesel by about 10%.
I really don't care about consumption with a free fuel other than range in my vehicle and how much I can carry or need to pick up along the way. For stationary use, why be concerned?  It will cost nothing, who cares if you are using 5 litres or 6 an hour?  Saving you heaps on diesel either way.

I can process 200L of veg in 30 Min in summer. Again, what's the difference if that amount of finished oil lasts me 40 hours or 45? Plenty more where that came from and If I put a bit of effort in I have processed 2000L of oil in a weekend while doing other jobs around the house anyhow.

The china Diesels have many qualities but outstanding fuel efficiency is not one of them.



ajaffa1

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 08:29:55 AM »
+1 Glort.

Tanman you could spend a small fortune on engine management systems, exhaust emission sensors and the like and probably get an improvement in efficiency of around 15%, with a much less reliable engine due to the fancy electronics. You could send the head away to have it ported and fit a turbocharger, might get you another 5% efficiency and more output from the engine. If you are going to run waste oils, which cost you next to nothing, who cares? You are still much less of an environmental vandal than you would be burning regular diesel from the pumps.

If you need an engine to produce 10 horse power buy one that will do 12 or 15 and it should last you a lifetime, with regular maintenance.

Bob

Tanman

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 01:52:52 PM »
I dig it guys, I see the light! So here is a fun hypothetical, what would last longer/handle it better running continuously.....a Hatz 1B40 running at regular rpms or a 1115 Laidong running at reduced power 12-14 hp? (I'm thinking continuous work load 24/7 type scenario).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 03:38:59 PM by Tanman »
Hatz 1B40
Chinese 1115
96 Suburban 6.5 turbo

glort

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Re: Laidong and alternative fuels
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 10:40:32 PM »

you are not comparing apples to apples for a start.

1B40 is a 10 HP engine@ 3000 Rpm. The china is a 20 Hp @ 1800? RPM.  You are talking about driving one beyond it's limits and under driving the other.

In any case I would go for the China.

Slower speed, much larger capacity.
Built much heavier
Comes with Rings, bearings, gaskets and filters to rebuild anyway.
Slower piston speeds are better with Veg oil.
Hatz IP is internal and a real bastard to get at.  Mine has been clagged some years and I have not been motivated to pull the entire engine apart to get at it.  China, 2 Bolts and the injector line and fuel line and you are there in 5 Min if you finish your coffee at the same time.
Z1115 is a water cooled engine. No comparison to an air cooled.

Not a lot to think about in this hypothetical. Air cooled 3000 RPM engine Vs much larger 1800 Rpm water cooled..... Pretty obvious winner.