Author Topic: Rust protection  (Read 480 times)

Jordan

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Rust protection
« on: January 27, 2019, 09:40:07 AM »
I fired up my Lister at last, connected to a 200 litre drum of water in thermo-syphon configuration.
I'd like to add some anti-rust product to the cooling water.
Are there any suggestions for a good way to go about it?
It's a lot of coolant, so cost is a consideration.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 10:48:37 PM by Jordan »

mike90045

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 03:47:38 PM »
I use coolant, about a 25 gallon system, 50%

I don't think cutting oil mixes get circulated enough to stay mixed

Hugh Conway

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 06:25:28 PM »
Previously I used a tall 30 gal (about 115 liter) tank for thermosyphon with 50/50 water  automotive antifreeze mix.
My normal run time was 2 to 3 hours and the tank never got all that hot. for shorter runs, a smaller tank could be used. I think those original large Lister cooling tanks were intended for long periods of operation where temp would eventually build up.
I am now using an old cast iron radiator from a house heating system along with a 1 gallon expansion tank. Total coolant volume is about 5 gallons. Still a thermosyphon system with the 50/50 mix. Works fine.
A problem with a large tank with anti-freeze is the initial cost of the anti-freeze, then eventual disposal. A much smaller tank ( for short run times) or radiator set-up reduces both of those problems.
A good cast iron rad can be difficult to find (went through a couple of cracked ones) but do look period appropriate.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Jordan

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 02:07:55 AM »
Thank you for the suggestions.
The house heating radiator is interesting, but I already have the 44 gallon drum set up.
I'm thinking I can throttle the water flow with the tap at the lower fitting, to limit the cooling effect, if necessary.
Hopefully I can find some coolant/concentrate at a good price.

ajaffa1

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 07:15:44 AM »
Hi Jordan, a lot of people start off with a 44, trouble is they don`t last long. I think their  life can probably be extended by bolting a sacrificial anode inside it. A better solution would be to look out for an old hot water cylinder, some of these are steel with stove enameled (glass) lining, others are made of copper. If you are really lucky you might find a stainless steel unit. I have also seen a lot of people use large propane/LPG bottles, most of these are galvanized and should give years of service.

Bob

Jordan

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 07:39:48 AM »
Hi Bob,
I am concerned about rust at the tank as well as the engine, which is why I thought rust protector would be a good idea.
I caught myself out with the volume though. I could buy several 44 gal. drums for the cost of a proper dose of chemicals for one.
I do have a big galvanised LPG tank to try, thanks for the tip.
Next problem: The one inch BSP skin fittings can cope with the curvature of the big drum, not so sure about the smaller diameter tank.
More rubber gasket material might help there.
In any case, I'll use the existing tank for a while.

glort

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 04:20:05 AM »

My uncle used an old war trick of dissolving engine oil with degreaser and mixing that with water.
I used it in cast iron engines for a decade and never had any corrosion problems.  Turns milky and I think does leave an oily film  on the metal which I surmise seals it.

I have read oil in the coolant can cause heat transfer problems but I think that is more with boilers and high temp use. As I said, never had a problem with Vehicle cooling systems and I can't imagine a liter would get hot enough to cause a worry either.

When I worked in a Car parts shop I always loved it how the first few days of summer there would be a Rush on  " Coolant" from people that saw the temp gauge go up on their cars and thought they were over heating and putting " Coolant" in the radiator would help.  95% of the time they were not overheating at all merely they were not running on thermostat temp and if they were overheating then the coolant would obviously be useless.

Jordan

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 06:58:35 AM »
I was thinking along similar lines to Glort's uncle: How to make oil mix with water? Add detergent.
It might be a good cheap solution but I thought could also end up being a "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" type situation.

ajaffa1

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 07:54:54 AM »
I posted a while back about the possibility of using the heat generated by a Lister engine to dry and filter waste vegetable oil. My crazy idea was to let it settle and then use it as the coolant in a thermo-syphon setup. This would heat it, while a small oil pump would also feed it through a 5 micron filter, before dumping it back into the tank through a sprinkler system 200 mm above cooling tank, this would allow the oil to dry out as per Glort`s instructions on the use of WVO. I am sure that cooking oil is very good at transferring heat, it cooks my steaks & chips very well and also cools the auto transmission on our car. I suspect that it would completely eradicate any corrosion issues and also increase the running temperatures a fraction, which would be a good thing for short runs

Who says a Lister engine can`t multitask?

Bob

BruceM

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 12:00:03 PM »
Oil cooled engines certainly have a long history of successful use.  The Rumely Oil Pull Tractors of 1910-1930 come to mind first, since they used the exhaust to induce a fresh air draft through the oil radiator, and I use induced draft cooling for my Listeroid. 

The heat transfer of oil is not as good as water, so larger surfaces and a larger radiator would be needed.

glort

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 12:22:22 PM »
The heat transfer of oil is not as good as water, so larger surfaces and a larger radiator would be needed.

This is true but only if the system is running near capacity. I would guarantee a thermo cooled lister would never come near that even in hot weather. That said, there would be no evaporative cooling like with water so a fan may be needed to blow air across the drum if the runs were long enough.

If one used a car radiator the electric fan would still need to be run through a lightbulb to slow it down enough not to over cool.

An interesting thing with oil would be you could run the engine at 150oC + without problem from the oil boiling. Wont even get near it's limit till 200 degrees but that may be putting the engine oil to the test.
No idea  what the mechanical effects on the engine would be other than looking at lube issues.

A power steering pump would be good for your squirter Bob. You could take out the pressure valve all together so there was nothing to block with any particles and get more flow than pressure. Put the filter on the inlet side of the pump and you'd be fine although anything in the oil after a bit of a strain through some cloth would be unlikely to worry a vane pump I think.
They run high temp in their intended use and there is nothing but some O rings to fail in the things the temp would worry.

Can bring you one or a few up when I come as well as an alternator or 3 if you have any use for them.

ajaffa1

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 12:36:57 PM »
Hi Glort, I`m with you all the way on a vane pump. I very much doubt that any modern oil would have a problem with an engine running at 150 centigrade, some parts of modern air cooled petrol engines regularly get to 300 centigrade without a problem running standard SAE 30.

When are you coming to visit? Got to get a concrete slab poured before you do so you can help me get her running and photograph the evidence, be that a success or a total failure.

Bob

glort

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 01:21:36 PM »

I wasn't sure what temps oils were good for now. I wonder if there is any benifit to running an engine at those sort of elevated temps? If there were I'm sure Vehicle manufacturers would all be running oil based coolant in their cars.  might be a risk with all the aluminium heads etc. They wouldn't melt but may get a bit softer.

I'm actually thinking about late next month/ early March to come up north. 
Mrs is snowed under atm which I am very wary of.  She is the type to never let anything go unfinished and has worked herself into the ground before with bad health consequences. Been talking to her about going to see my Aunt and uncle in Casino and your good self.

Got home from Dads last night at 2:20 Am. Didn't want to leave till late to avoid the holiday traffic which we did successfully. Nice having the road to yourself although I did come across an unusual high number of twits driving  with their High beams on and not dipping them from behind and ahead. I miss the big LED light bars front and back on my 4WD beast.
One flick of them and they soon got the message. going to put a small one on the Mrs car.


Was a good drive with all the holiday traffic well gone but  unlike every other damn time, mrs hardly slept a wink. I thought she would be asleep before we hit the highway and she'd not miss out on much so wouldn't be too tired but lucky to have slept 30 min. I have to go up to get Dad and bring him back to the central cost to see my Aunt for her birthday on the 15th.
Put on a surprise 80th for Dad on sunday which my cousin brought her up for.  Last saw my Aunt 18 months ago and we were all shocked how far downhill she has got in that time physically and mentally. She couldn't even identify herself in my mother and fathers wedding album I took up to show her. Didn't have a clue who that woman in the beautiful white Dress my father was standing next to in all the pictures was.  When she found out about the party, she was very excited and rang my uncle to see if he had one of Dads friends Phone numbers to invite him too.  Unfortunately the chap Died over 50 years ago.
 
 I think Dad is keen to see her as often as he can now while he still can.
As my cousin kept telling me, I don't want to get old.

Doing more running up and down the pacific highway than I have in some years. Was doing it a lot a few years back before things went south in a big way but I also want to spend as much time with Dad as I can as his clock is ticking too.

You need to start picking up some oil NOW Bob for your Genny. Never too early to start and the more you have before you start using it the better.
The supply falls off big time in winter when people don't go out nearly as much. I'm going to start getting some in myself to stock pile for my winter heating fuel. Barely touched any oil in about 2 years now, brought a load I had with me and been using that for the bit of engine fuel I have needed. 

Bet the mongeral that bought my old place had a fit when he found the 2000L of oil sitting down the side of the place. Knowing how dodgy he was, it probably just all went down the drain.

I'll bring my cameras all set up in video mode for the first fire up. Bring the wireless mikes as well so I can wire you for sound and make you a YT star.

mike90045

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 04:51:24 PM »
On the wet cylinder liners, what temps are the O rings good for ?    Wouldn't want a ring to start letting the crankcase flood

ajaffa1

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Re: Rust protection
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2019, 12:06:52 AM »
Good question Mike. Here is a PDF showing the properties of various rubbers. Highest temperature resistance is around 450 F or 232 C.

Bob