Author Topic: Colder start 25F  (Read 440 times)

John (Boston)

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Colder start 25F
« on: January 13, 2019, 07:17:37 PM »
Hello Everyone,

Was pretty cold last night so I went out today to see if the 6/1 would light off.  It took a few tries but I got her going.  It's definitely easier to crank with the 10-30 diesel oil in there.  I think the friction of the piston in the bore is lower with this oil.

Air temp was about 25F, head temp was about 17F at the time of this start.  The ST5 started out making a resonating howling noise which I assume was one or both of the bearings.  After a bit it lessened.  I did not change out the Chinese bearings - no idea what they used for grease.

A bit into the run the Listeroid skipped a power stroke or two and then straightened out and ran fine for the rest of the run.  I guess I caught the skip in the video so you can see what I mean.  Not sure why it would have skipped so far into the run.  By this time I'd think the combustion chamber should have been warm enough for reliable ignition.  Worries me a little.  I have anti-gel in the fuel so it shouldn't be a flow issue...

Well, hope I'm not boring you guys...  Here's the link to this latest start.  I'll probably do an other one when it's even colder.  The object of the enterprise is to be able to start this thing down to zero F or colder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpm724Uhsxc

-John (Boston)

Metro 6/1 (genset)
Cummins 6BT (89 Dodge truck, bought it new)
Cummins 4BT (91 Oshkosh bread truck)
Kubota D1005 (B2320 tractor)

mike90045

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2019, 07:24:00 PM »
Are you adding any gasoline to the diesel for improved starting ?  getting it going at 25f is pretty impressive, I think 0f is ambitious .

ajaffa1

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
Hi John, not sure why your engine missed a couple of power strokes, but it quickly recovered and didn`t do it again so it`s probably nothing to worry about, just keep an eye on it and let us know if it starts to do it again.

The ST5 bearings are a much bigger worry. When I examined the Chinese bearings in mine, I found that they were open bearings, filled with yak fat and the manufacturer had not cleaned the casting sand out of the bearing housings. If you are not going to swap these out immediately, I recommend you order new sealed bearings and have them on site for when the old ones f*ck up.

Bob

John (Boston)

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2019, 10:24:44 PM »
Mike,
Nope no gasoline in the diesel - just a little anti gel (same stuff I always ran in the trucks and what I use in the little Kubota - Diesel 911 pretreat).  Much colder than this and I'll give it a little torch flame down the intake.  That seemed to make it start easier.  So far, this was the coldest I've ran it.

My Duece-and-a-Half had an intake manifold flame heater which I'm told works very well.  I never got to try mine since there were parts missing on it.  If I recall, the data plate on the dash says not to blast the flame gun unless the engine is cranking.

I have a changeover valve plug that was fitted with a glow plug but when I took out my CV plug I found it to be slightly shorter than the replacement.  So the heads must not be the same.  I did not install the new plug.  Next summer I might play with the CV plugs again - when it's not so cold out.  I think the glow plug will make it fire pretty quickly.  In the Kubota they make a BIG difference.

Bob,
I did take the ST5 all apart to inspect and to paint with Glyptal.  The bearings had side covers on them (so not wide open) and I did not open them up.  They felt OK so I left them alone - probably a mistake.  In warmer weather they're not too bad, but far from silent.  Funny, I found no sand in mine.

My slip rings are not straight.  They have a little runout.  I was thinking about removing them and trying to get them lined up better.  My fan (looks to be aluminum or potmetal) is also a bit crooked but I'm not worried about that.

The entire inside of the ST5 was bare clean iron - no paint at all.  I must have gotten a "fresh" one off the boat because there was no rust at all, either.  The first coat of Glyptal soaked in pretty well.  I gave it all two coats.  I ran it down into the field winding slots best I could - to try and bind all the windings together.  I don't like the way they just press the field into the case - no wonder why they crack sometimes.  I even made "special" brush handles out of wire so I could paint all the way through to the middle of the case.

-John (Boston)




 
Metro 6/1 (genset)
Cummins 6BT (89 Dodge truck, bought it new)
Cummins 4BT (91 Oshkosh bread truck)
Kubota D1005 (B2320 tractor)

ajaffa1

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2019, 11:25:40 PM »
Hi John, The slip rings on mine also run out in both planes, up and down and side to side. I put the whole armature in a lathe and skimmed them to stop the carbon brushes from bouncing up and down. I was thinking of trying to make up a more robust and accurate slip ring assembly similar to the one on my Brush generator head, probably turn it out of Tufnol with new brass rings, if I do I`ll post photos showing how to do it.

Glyptal is a great product but expensive and hard to get in Australia. I used polyurethane varnish on the inside of mine. Like you, I used two coats and concentrated on ensuring all the copper got a good coating to prevent anything from moving about. I think it should cope with any heat generated as most copper wire used in generators and transformers is insulated with polyurethane, if you`ve ever tried to solder it you`ll know that it doesn`t burn off easily.

Keep her spinning,

Bob




BruceM

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2019, 11:38:34 PM »
My neighbor's new ST-3 had the allegedly improved bearings from Tom in Georgia. Made noises almost immediately so no improvement there.  SKF bearings eliminated that.  I had the same experience 10 years earlier with my ST-3 from the northwest coast.

A glow plug makes a world of difference in cold starts.  Often we have nights to 10-15F in winter and in the morning that makes for a tough start, but the glow plug makes it much easier. I found that my air compressor must be unbelted at those temps, as it has too much resistance for my air motor starter, which is pretty stiff itself.  I usually unbelt both air compressor and generator, start and run for a few minutes, then stop and re-belt for a warm start. At 32F I don't have to mess with the belts as long as I have over 110 psi in the 500 gallon air storage tank. 
The VW glow plugs only last a couple years.  Inevitably it's in January when a remote auto start has failed that I find the glow plug has failed open circuit.

Red Electrical Varnish is the same as Glyptol and is widely available here. Great stuff, available in spray cans.  Just passing on a tip from 38ac that worked well.









ronmar

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 04:20:03 AM »
Barefoot really? :)

I dont think you were missing, I think the cold oil and governor linkages were causing it to hunt/overshoot.  One thing I did to mine was to add a small soft spring at the top where it connects to the rack.  This holds the rack and all the linkages at one side of its slop. This makes the governor much more responsive to load changes and less likley to overshoot at load changes.

Stock ST bearings?  I hear the yak fat they are lubricated with dosnt like the cold:)

For cold starts I pull the valve cover, pour a little alcohol in around the injector and light it on fire...  warms the injector and the head, makes the first pop a little easier especially when cranking against cold oil...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

ajaffa1

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 09:34:30 PM »
Very interesting that there is so much variation in build quality of these Chinese ST heads. I suspect that all the casings are made in the same foundry and then shipped to different factories for assembly.The quality of the finished product is then determined by the quality controls in place at those factories. Some will fit sealed bearings others won`t, some will remove the casting sand others won`t. Like the Indian Listeroids the only way to ensure longevity is to strip them down and apply western standards during reassembly.

The Yak fat grease is equally useless when it gets hot, it takes on the viscosity of diesel and runs everywhere.

Ronmar you`re meant to drink the alcohol to keep you warm!  :laugh:

Bob

John (Boston)

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 01:12:00 AM »
Bob,
I think the polyurethane varnish you used should be fine.  The main thing you want to do is keep the windings in place and stop vibrations by "gluing" the whole thing together.

I have an other ST5 (my first one) which is really crude.  It has a formed steel shell instead of iron.  It's thin sheet metal with little U channels welded inside to hold the field.  It has machined rings welded at each end to bolt the ends to.  The whole thing was obviously welded up first (lot of work went into it) then it was turned true at the ends so that everything lined up.

They turned the ID (cutting into the little U channels) just like they do with the iron housings and then they pressed in the field.  Everything is a bit off center so they ended up cutting right through one or two of the channels.  The two ends are cast iron but different than the all iron version.

The armature looks very similar to (if not the same as) the one in my newer all iron unit.  The bearings were sealed and the fan was metal.  It used the same slip rings and same brush rigging as the iron unit.

This steel shelled ST5 has a weak Z winding and won't hold voltage under load.  I should try putting a capacitor across the bridge to see if I can get it a bit higher.  It became a spare when I found the iron one.

Ronmar,
I might add that anti-slop spring to the linkage.  I already changed out the governor spring to a longer one and I reversed the adjuster so it pulls straight.  This fixed the lazy governor issue I had a few years back.  Now it's pretty responsive.

Bruce,
Wow, a 500 gallon air tank?  That's a pretty serious air supply you've got there.  Yeah, I've had my time chasing VW glow plug issues.  We have a 2001 Jetta which always seemed to have an issue with the glow plugs.  On ours it was typically the connector at the top of the plug that lost connection.  I eventually changed the little harness and had better luck.

I'm going to revisit the glow plug on the changeover valve plug next summer when I can work out there more comfortably.  There must be internal differences in the heads to have the plugs about an eighth inch different in protrusion.

-John (Boston)
Metro 6/1 (genset)
Cummins 6BT (89 Dodge truck, bought it new)
Cummins 4BT (91 Oshkosh bread truck)
Kubota D1005 (B2320 tractor)

BruceM

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Re: Colder start 25F
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 01:45:02 AM »
500 gallons is not nearly enough when you are ripping hardwoods via Gast 4AM air motor.  It's fine for my radial arm saw and other tools with less demand for air. The rotary air motors eat air fast. 2 - ten foot rips of 3/4" maple will eat that tank down from 145 to 90psi. It's adequate for me as long as I am willing to take lots of breaks to let the compressor (Listeroid 6/1 running a 5 hp 2 stage pump) catch up.  I conserve air by always keeping the motor loaded down moderately, and shut off immediately between boards, thin kerf blade, etc. Unlike electric motors, a high reving, unloaded air motor consumes the MOST power (air).  It takes a mental adjustment.