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Author Topic: I Need HELP; not running  (Read 598 times)

tyssniffen

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I Need HELP; not running
« on: January 08, 2019, 10:39:40 PM »
of course this happens right when I need power.   Seemed to run fine 2 days ago.  I've got about 100 hours on her with this exact set up - nothing has changed.

I have been cranking all morning and can't get her to catch.   I run WVO, but always run store-bought diesel the last 5 minutes before shut off, just to clean things out.   Still, I pulled the injector and cleaned off any carbon build up.  I check it by hooking it up but not bolted down, and can see the mist coming out properly.  I can HEAR the injector doing the 'squeech' when it is bolted in. 

When I pull off the valve holder in the 100th attempt to start it, it almost seems like the compression isn't as strong as it should be.  Could I possibly need to change the distance of the rocker touch points?

I've made sure store bought diesel is running all the way through, from the filter to the pump to the injector. Valves are rocking.  I have used that 'seafoam' stuff as an additive in the store-bought diesel, and I have used old gas as a thinner for my WVO.  In fact, I guess that could be the only change in my set up - I used some DIFFERENT old gas - like 2 months old 87 octane to thin out the WVO.

Went out this morning, in the cold (45 F, not really cold) and wet and cranked for a while and couldn't get it to go, I did do one squirt of starting fluid in the air intake and it got going!   Then, when I wasn't around... it STOPPED.   again, all fuel lines have been checked, but even so, I have now bled the line enough to know it's not a fuel problem.

HELP.    What I'm hoping for of course, is for someone to suggest some simple thing like "throw some HEET in" ... but I'll take any suggestions.

glort

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2019, 11:05:26 PM »

First Question, What the hell engine are you talking about?

Valve holder?
Rocker touch Points???

Some photos of the setup along with specifying the engine would help ..... a LOT!.

In the mean time, just throw some HEET in.

Whatever that is?

38ac

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 01:09:55 AM »
 a noticeable drop in effort required to get it over compression  along with starting fluid getting it going earlier points towards a compression problem. Since you are running waste fuels carbon under the valves  is a likely scenario.  First check to see that you have clearance  between the rocker tip  and valve. Then bring the engine up against  compression and hold it while listening  at the intake and exhaust  for hissing.  If you hear leaks and if they are due to carbon  you can fix that by  knocking on the valve end of the rocker arms with a soft hammer while the valve is closed.  Hit it hard  to knock the valve off the seat but do hit it like your  trying to kill it or you will. Do not hit the retainer! Hit the rocker arm only . Use a block of  wood if you dont have a soft hammer. Hit it 5-6  times and  check for leaks again.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 01:32:23 AM by 38ac »
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mike90045

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 08:12:36 AM »
don't keep using spray starter, you will blow something - if you must, very limited application.

With WVO, I too would guess carbon buildup on valves.   If you can get it running, let it warm up a bit, and use a squirt bottle, give a brief spray into the intake while it's running, that gives you a bit of internal steam clean, and can help knock out the carbon.

If you are able to hand crank through the compression, something is leaking, likely the valves.

if you can get it going, stay on diesel, and load it down fulley, get it really warmed up and water spray into the intake, to clean carbon out.     You can't adjust valves to fix carbon, and if the water injection does not work, you are going to have to pull the head and scrape.   Did you ever do any valve seat refurbishment before ?

tyssniffen

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 05:43:56 PM »
So, yes. Carbon build up.  For sure.   I spent the whole day yesterday tearing her down.  I hope I didn't do something stupid. 

Took the head off to find quite a blackened interior.  Bottom of head:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nQ2FS8wyqHw/XDYvYOsiH2I/AAAAAAAAO90/-Bn1wMpmzvIdTxFlqesuQrm-NY-67_KzQCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_0948.JPG

Top of piston:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1pkN2D1jkgU/XDYvVqzccTI/AAAAAAAAO9w/AZfedy0KOUgZccxbnOpaQ32aDziXDR3tgCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_0949.JPG

Top of piston after I spent time attempting to clean:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tt1ZbALdZ3I/XDYvViGApeI/AAAAAAAAO9s/gk-ObrQUXXw4Y9bRkqBGpsc2w_8qj8VJgCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_0950.JPG


I guess I didn't take a picture of the valves after I cleaned them up.  I put everything back together the way it was - that is, I did not change the spacing between the rockers and the valves...  Changed the oil, put in new gasket around the square 'door' of the body as it seemed crappy...

attempted to crank, heard the squeech of the injector... no go.   Still feels like the compression is wrong.  I say that because after pulling the valve holder while cranking, it almost seems like I can keep going myself a couple cranks. 

Now that I've cleaned off a lot of that build up, do I still do this valve hammering?  thank you all for your help.



glort

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 06:45:40 PM »

You have carboned up and stuck the rings.
Pull the engine down again, Remove the Cylinder and clean the piston ring lands.
Might need another set of rings.

You are obviously idling/ low loading the engine a lot. Need to put on water injection and/ or blend the fuel with Ulp  to prevent this happening again.

dieselspanner

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 07:00:38 PM »
Has any one mentioned stuck piston rings yet? (I'm doing this on my Kindle, as I'm travelling, it means I'm worse than usual! )

The check for this is to pull off the air inlet get the piston just past TDC, with the inlet valve open and squirt a spoon full of oil on to the top of the piston. Then start cranking. If you then feel increased compression and the afford mentioned water in the inlet with the engine running and loaded up doesn't help it's time to pull the piston for a look.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

dieselspanner

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 07:03:13 PM »
Looks like we got the same idea and crossed posts, Glort!!

Steft
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 07:23:14 PM »
That oily looking ''carbon" sure does point that way. 
For small loads, you're way better off with a small inverter-generator. Loads much less than 50% are death to diesels.  For a 6/1 that means 1000 watt minimum.

We are all assuming you did listen to the intake and exhaust for leakage prior to your head removal, to rule out a simple carbon bit at the valve seat. 

cujet

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2019, 09:21:44 PM »
It does sound like you either need a new set of rings or need to remove and clean your rings and possibly hone the cylinder. Low compression can also happen when a valve does not close fully. But you seem to claim to have properly addressed valve lash.

However,

One thing we do in the aviation world when piston rings stick, is to put an MEK substitute in the cylinder called Ethyl Acetate. The link below is an example. It does a good job of freeing carbon'd up rings in piston aircraft engines.

You could try various solvents in the cylinder with the piston about half way up. Remember, they will drain into the crankcase, so be careful to clean out any residual. Liquid paint stripper with Methylene Chloride (or paint spray gun cleaner with Methylene Chloride) is one of the few products that will dissolve carbon and can be used in some engines to free up stuck rings. Yamaha made a product called "Ring Free" that works fairly well. It's akin to the products above and rather harsh.

Think about how oven cleaner removes hard carbon. You will realize that it's generally not an easy task.


But since you are running WVO, it might be good to have a solution that does not require disassembly every 100 hours.

http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/m.e.k.-substitute
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mike90045

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 11:42:18 PM »
Will water injection ( WI) in a carboned up engine, clean down in the ring area, or is that going to be a manual cleaning ?

And switching to real diesel will help a lot with the wet carbon buildup, but you do have to load it down to keep it hot enough to burn that out.

BruceM

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 11:47:43 PM »
Too late for water injection if you can't get or keep the engine running. 

Since it started and ran but then quit, that still says valves might be the problem.  We're short on reliable information from the field. no follow up on valve questions.


glort

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2019, 06:13:18 AM »
Will water injection ( WI) in a carboned up engine, clean down in the ring area, or is that going to be a manual cleaning ?

I have never stripped an engine down before or after WI treatment to inspect but repeated experience leads me to believe it certainly can remove deposits from ring lands.

From what I have seen, there is an initial quick improvement where I surmise the initial bulk cleanup happens then a much slower but ongoing improvement where I assume the ring lands are being progressively freed up. In vehicles I have had this has taken up to some months, in other cases just weeks before the gradual but noticeable improvement leveled out and could no longer be detected. The time to clean the ring lands I suspect would be a real length of string thing with many variables but would with decent WI dosage happen.... If the engine was still running.

 If i suspected stuck rings I would be feeding plenty of water constantly into the engine while it was running. I would suspect it would take quite a few tens of hours depending on load and dosage for the problem to be fully cleaned up.

I have also come to the conclusion through no visual verification that some methanol/ Ethanol mixed with the water will speed the process of carbon removal.

In the case of Something like a 6/1 etc, then I'd just be pulling the cylinder, cleaning the lands as required and re assembling with a serious re evaluation to the operating parameter of the engine, the cleanliness of the fuel and the administering of a good regular Dose of water  while the engine was operating.

I have done a LOT of things with veg I am certain are detrimental to an engine like severe over fueling off Boost in order to provide big power on boost among other things but having a good WI system has meant I have never had any trouble with coking, melting pistons or anything else one would expect from such fueling practices.

Wi Will clean out any deposits that are there and keep any more from building up.  The way I have had Vehicles fuels up, you'd have to be trying hard to gum them if you had a decent WI system in place that worked when the engine was running.


ajaffa1

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 09:41:39 AM »
Hi Guys, sorry come to the conversation so late but been busy trying to move things along at the canoe center, can`t do much to help them other than supervise others but every little helps I guess.

The first two pictures posted look pretty grim, I would guess that the bores have glazed up and the rings have coked up. Pulling the cylinder off is an easy job and should be done before you try to restart her. I have found in the past that one of the best cleaning fluids known to man is vinegar, it`s cheap and readily available. Remove piston by taking out the circlips and pushing out the gudgeon/wrist pin. Manually remove as much cr*p as you can then stand the piston and rings in a solution containing water, vinegar and a couple of drops of detergent. The acid in the vinegar should eat through all the deposits overnight. Blast it with a pressure washer in the morning and you should be good to go.

I notice in your third photo that your engine has a wet sleeve in it (concentric ring about 10 mm from piston),
I wonder how tough the sleeve is, an induction hardened sleeve requires softer rings while a cast iron bore (soft bore) requires harder rings. Wonder if the manufacturer fitted the wrong rings, if they did you would end up with a problem exactly like yours.

Bob

38ac

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Re: I Need HELP; not running
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 12:20:02 PM »
Banging on the valves fixes nothing if they are not leaking, did you check that as I suggested?? Did you remove the valves and clean them and the seats or did you just clean the surface? If so you made the head look nice but fixed nothing.  If the valves are not leaking the next place to look and listen is past the rings. You do that by removing the crankcase door.
It is so much  quicker,   cheaper  and less effort to DIAGNOSE problems instead of guessing,,,,, but to each his own.
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