Author Topic: Power outages  (Read 501 times)

glort

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2018, 03:56:49 AM »
Thanks Bruce, thought that would be the case, I`ll start looking for a decent second hand stand alone inverter. Wonder if I should get more panels or put a diverter switch on the panels I have?

Bob

Few insights to that Bob....
Firstly, You will need batteries of some form. I'm not aware of any inverter you can feed Direct from Panels without batteries.... apart from maybe one built by some Electronics Geniuses on another DIY forum I look at.  A narrow operating window with very precise setup of dedicated panels for the job.

The best/ most economical way to go is exactly like I did in my Vid.  Panels/ charger/ batteries/ inverter/ load.
You would not be able to just switch from your grid tie panels. They will be wired in series to give somewhere around 300V on average. The input to an inverter will need to be 60V at max, more likley, 24. 

The way I did my setup was to put a stack of panels in parallel. Being house panels they were 30+ V which suited a 24V setup.  With a big enough controller, the batteries can be quite small as mine were, a couple of large automotive batteries.  If you have enough panels and a big enough charger, the panels pretty much supply the power direct and the battery  is not discharged, its more of a ballast to take up any small variations.
I could boil an urn for instance and the batteries were not touched because the chargers supplied all the power to the batteries as soon as there was any voltage drop. The battery was back to float within a minute because it had never been actually discharged.

At night you could supply the chargers with power from an engine and a truck alternator and run the same battery inverter setup. Only the input source would be different.  Everyone will say you can't use car batteries or they will die quick but that is not all together true. they will die quick if you discharge them  below about 70% capacity frequently but if you are only every taking maybe 5% off them because they are attached to a charger that is supplying sufficient current all the time, they there is no reason they shouldn't last longer than in a car and many reasons why they should. Spend some more on marine Deep Cycle batteries and you should get up to 5 years or more.

 The other way is to get a battery compatible Inverter. These will charge batteries with excess power normally exported to the grid first then if there is a power failure  ( or you turn off the mains) they revert to batteries. They are smart inverters so you could probably program them to discharge the batteries at night then go to mains if needed.

These inverters start at $1500 and I think average about $2K. As far as battery compatibility, I'm not sure. I have a feeling you would have to hook them up to something packaged from the manufacturers. I have been looking at and argu..... discussing batteries on another site and at the present time they are a VERY long way from being economically Viable.

If this was more occasional use then no question the car battery setup would be cheapest hands down. If you use the batterys as ballast rather than reserve of any kind, no problems. You would have to feed them from solar or a generator.  24V is the most easy setup.
You could use a truck alternator for the generator or a couple of 12V units with modifications and external control.  Not sure but on some it may be possible to buy a replacement regulator/ brush module to go from 12 to 24.  If you wanted a couple of 80A Mitsubishi internal fan types to play with. Let me know and I can send them up. I have not worked them out for this myself as yet but I'm sure it would be very simple for a man of your electrical engineering knowledge.

I have been looking at panels again this week for someone. Some good deals going on used stuff atm. Obviously isn't selling very much.
I spose you could wire an array up to be all single or parallel but what a Job that would be.  Better keep them dedicated I reckon.  Only other alternative I can think of to utilise them both ways is a Powerjack inverter.  these can run off 12 or 24V and plug into an electrical socket in your home and backfeed that way.  You have to be grid connected but they would allow you to utilise your Low voltage array when the power was on and get credit for that extra power.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1000W-MPPT-Solar-Grid-Tie-Inverter-DC20V-45V-to-AC230V-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverters/371965544731?epid=1249345992&hash=item569adfc91b:g:pYQAAOSw-JJaXFvB:rk:6:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MSE-3000w-24v-off-grid-solar-power-inverter-charger-MPPT-solar-charger-40A/142959270937?hash=item2149095c19:g:pYoAAOSwJqNbC4OO:rk:5:pf:0

BruceM

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2018, 05:11:32 AM »
Good advice Glort.  Auto batteries do very well for the "ballast" since they are designed for (and good for) very high discharge rates, and high charge rates too.




EdDee

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2018, 10:46:26 AM »
Hey Guys...

Take a look here: http://www.digipoint.co.za:85 This is basically a battery ballasted system I have running - 48V DC buss on 4Kw of panels, offline inverter/charger... If power goes down at night, the inverter acts as a UPS until the emergency screamer auto-starts, when everyone has woken up from the noise, I start old thumper, then the emergency unit shuts down automatically.... To keep everyone in the neighborhood on their toes, I turn on a bloody great loud siren on the raw mains circuit, this lets us know "subtly" when the grid is back up and running....

Cheers
Ed
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ajaffa1

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 11:42:31 AM »
Thanks guys for that enormous amount of information. I`m off to Sydney for more medical assessments in the morning so I probably won`t be posting until Wednesday/Thursday.

It is difficult to express the horror that I feel about this trip, I don`t want to go but it has been forced on me by the insurance companies and lawyers. I have PTSD and am terrified in motor vehicles, I have no idea how I will cope in an airplane. Guess we will find out tomorrow, if you see some nutcase going postal worker at Grafton or Sydney airport it is probably me. Unofficially my councilor has recommended I dose my self with Valium about an hour before the flight, I`m not entirely sure flying wasted is the best solution but it may be the only option.

How I am expected to cope with Sydney traffic is a total mystery to me, I can`t cope with the traffic in Grafton! Very much hoping this ridiculous exercise isn`t going to induce another heart attack but I can`t help thinking that is all part of the insurance companies plan. Dead men don`t get compensation so lets give this old c*nt the run about and see if we can kill him.

What I find really offensive about this entire exercise is that non of these doctors I am seeing are allowed to make a diagnosis or recommend a treatment/therapy regime that might help me. These guys work for the insurance industry so when I arrive I will have to sign a waver allowing them to share my information with others.They will then determine if I am fit for work or compensation regardless of the wishes and diagnosis of the doctors who are actually treating me. What a crock of shit! Depending on how it goes, I may have to hunt some of these f*ckers down and explain to them the error of their ways. Don`t have a gun licence anymore because I am on anti depressants but I still know where the guns are kept.  :laugh:

While I am away, I would like to know how to rectify 240 volt AC at 15 Amps to smooth filtered DC at around 380 Volts at similar current. I`m hoping this should keep you guys busy and out of trouble till I get back.

Bob

glort

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2018, 01:05:24 PM »

Hi Bob,

If you would like to catch up while you are here or need any help getting around, let me know.
I'll message you my details in case you have lost them.

BruceM

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2018, 04:16:03 PM »
To take 240VAC to 380VDC with moderate ripple, and intended for a generator requires a large step up transfomer to 385VAC (or a few volts more than your desired DC output), then a well heatsinked bridge rectifier, a large choke of at least 5 millihenries, and at least 10000 uF of HV capacitor.  For less ripple, add a second choke and capacitor.  The chokes and capacitors are going to be large and spendy.  This is how I do it as I loathe switching supplies and their unintentional emissions.  I used this method for my 12 amp 230V AC to 146v DC battery bank charger. It used a surplus 230V to 115v step down transformer plus a motorized variac in series to adjust the charge current.  It's been retired after about 10 years of reliable service since my PV has been increased from 875 to 2375 watts; even on cloudy days I now have plenty of power.

A power factor corrected switching AC to DC supply is the typical modern solution and might save some size and expense...but only if you can find one for a good price. 

A two stage common mode choke filter could be used to knock down the conducted HI frequency emissions to the inverter I'm assuming you're supplying.  The inverter may otherwise have  troubles.

Sorry for your torture at the hands of insurance co. whores. I went though that about 30 years ago, to a very bad result for my health.

Sorry for the PTSD, that's a tough one.  CBD oil alone or pot with 1:1 CBD to THC works for some, according to the AZ veterans support group.  They had quite a fight to get pot approved for PTSD in our state.  I use it periodically for head and muscle pain and for control of complex partial seizures.  Compared to all the 2 dozen anticonvulsants I've tried (on some for 15 years, causing depression and liver, gallbladder, and kidney problems), it's pretty damned amazing.  A good side effect is my depression is improved the next morning from a night time dose which helps me sleep on a rough night. Very small doses below getting "high" work best for me. Too much THC just causes pain and paranoia for me, though I know for some it's very helpful for depression.
My quality of life has improved greatly because of it. 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 04:17:58 PM by BruceM »

mikenash

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 05:06:36 PM »
Good luck Bob

FWIW my lady friend - she who can only start the easi-start Honda genset - has suffered a life of PTSD as a legacy of ugly childhood abuse stuff and physical damage associated with that

Years before we met, ACC doctors & conventional medicine had left her wheelchair-bound, very unwell, very overweight, and unable to cope with normal social interactions and many physical situations such as your traffic/confinement stuff.  Drugs like Prednisone were slowly killing her

A few years ago she began to research her conditions and situation and to take charge of her own medical processes (after a long struggle to find both a doctor and a pharmacist who "got it")

These days she is fit and active, takes no meds apart from an evening dose of an antagonist, lives independently and enjoys her grandchildren

She is a very smart woman who used the power of her intelligence and the information available in books and the internet, plus her bloody-minded determination, to take back control from ACC (read insurance) doctors and regain her life

It's worth commenting that she did that un-supported, largely, with no $$ at all - just living on something like a sickness benefit from ACC, and in very poor circumstances. Mostly just "determination in action"

I guess I'm saying that "if she can then you can".  Good luck

mike90045

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 07:38:26 PM »
I'd make a screened room, and put Switching Power supplies in it, clean the DC power up as it comes out of the shield room.   Much smaller inductors and caps with high freq switchers (and better power factor) and parts will be avaib in 5 years if it needs rework.    Big 400V computer filter caps are really expensive.


BruceM

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 10:16:00 PM »
The high voltage caps for a simple linear supply are spendy.  The PF for a linear supply with a choke over critical value is nearly perfect.  Switcher's are hardly the robust and long lived solution. Good luck finding an affordable switching supply with good PF, the desired DC voltage, at 15 amps. 

If you are running a generator for the 230VAC source, changing to a 3 phase head and modifying or adjusting an AVR to generate the desired 380VDC or whatever is desired directly might be a nice solution.  Depending on the inverter, just 3 phase rectification alone (no choke or caps) might be all you need.


glort

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2018, 12:45:21 AM »

Hope Bobs Flight was OK.
According to the arrivals info,  he should have touched down about an hour ago. 10 Min early which will be a relief to him.  I was out the back yard and saw his plane go over. I waved, hope he waved back and wasn't too terrified.  That flight radar app tells me what plane is going over and I am under the regional flightpath so can spot them all dropping out from 11,000 Ft to about 8000 as they are in viewing distance right over head.  can always hear them but never enough to be annoying.  The idiot with the Pitts Special that flies out of the local airport about 3 KM away is far more annoying.  Pitches the prop up on the thing to make it scream and then comes in hot on approach and makes the engine backfire and crackle like no tomorrow.  He can fly the thing quietly and does when it suits but most times just makes a pain of himself. Going to start complaining if he does not pull his pitch in.  They are VERY wary of noise complaints here and with where that airport is with so many residential areas surrounding it. 

By now Bob will be out the airport and right in the thick of the Sydney shit Traffic.  Few places where it's worse than round the airport and on a Sat morning.
If he's staying in the city, he's not going to know what hit him.  They are digging up the CBD atm putting in a light rail, a brilliant idea to really Fk up an already bad but workable traffic situation. Just getting from one end to the other is an abomination.

I feel for you mate. Had you let me know you were coming, I'd have come got you and taken you wherever you needed to go. Home turf for me after all.
I know what you must be going though. I was sick to the stomach for a fortnight before going to NZ. Not scared of flights, just hate the ridiculous tiny space they squeeze you into which I don't fit. Was pissed at the people hiring me as well because Part of my going was conditional on extra legroom seats which they didn't book me and was all gone time I realised.
The whole thing, getting to the airport and fear of missing the plane, getting mucked around in customer, frigging round with idiots at hire car cos all had my anxiety levels off the scale so I know the fear and for me, the guilt of being scared of nothing and something I would have laughed at a few years ago.

Try not to worry about the traffic. It's moving too slow to hurt you which is one upshot. My dad freaks out about the traffic as well so I understand that and why you would be wary of it.  I know I go up the coast and round your parts visiting family and the time I get back here, I'm thinking why the hell is everyone driving like maniacs and the world has gone into fast forward?

Hopefully we can catchup while you are here.
Just waiting on a guy to deliver an excavator now so I can do some more gardening.  There are some powerful Big weeds up to 30Ft high I need to get rid of as well as cut a retaining wall and strip some garden beds.
Should be a long, hot, hard weekend carrying on into Monday.

ajaffa1

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2018, 11:18:34 AM »
Hi Guys, got back today, flights all OK. I had no idea my flight was being stalked by Glort but I wouldn`t expect anything less.  :laugh:

The trip was a total waste of time and the governments money because when I got to see the specialist doctors their information was months out of date. So I have been sent home awaiting another summons to attend the government doctors, once the doctors,lawyers and insurance companies have got their acts together.

I haven`t had time to catch up on all the posts I missed while I was away, I`ll try to catch up in the morning.

Bob

glort

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2018, 12:21:14 PM »

Geez, and you didn't even tell me you were coming!   :embarassed: Kept an eye on my emails and phone but all for nothing! That's OK, I can take a hint!

How did you go mate with the flight and the traffic?  Where about did  you stay?
Why am I not surprised it was a bust? Do these things ever go to plan especially when anything governmental is concerned?  Would be cheaper to pay you out and be done with it than sped a fortune trying to get out of it and then having to cough up anyway. 

Why the hell couldn't they just send you to Brisbane anyway?

ajaffa1

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Re: Power outages
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2018, 08:52:11 AM »
Hey buddy, this wasn`t a social trip. I would have liked to catch up with you but reason prevailed. I stayed with my Brother in Law who lives in the Eastern suburbs. He very kindly drove me to all the appointments and to and from the airport.

I also got to go and see my Father in Law, he has dementia and is in an aged care facility. I haven`t been able to visit him for over two years. He was a wonderful man before this terrible disease took him from us. Incredibly he remembered me and knew my name, we took him to the beach and fed him ice cream, he smiled and laughed. I guess that`s one thing ticked off my bucket list, hearing my Wife`s Father laugh again.

I`ve still got to pen a stinking email to my lawyers asking why I had to go to Sydney for assessment when my medical issues are still ongoing and undiagnosed/untreated.

Bob