Author Topic: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?  (Read 3494 times)

Rob PetterPJ2

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2018, 01:54:52 AM »
Was there any rust or water in the cylinder or sump? conrods arent easy to bend in service usually hydro-locking is the cause in my experience. You'll have to start at the beginning with 2 equal conrods and machined bores.

Hi Johndoh
Water in the cylinder? Not that I know. Not in my time, at least. By me, the engine was always used in a dry place.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-can-hydrolocking-occur-and-why-is-it-a-potential-engine-killer/
When I see the pictures of the bent piston rods at this webpage, mine is just very slightly bent. Not as bad as any of the examples there. As I wrote before, it results in a difference of only 1 mm in length. It even looks like it's made like that. But a bent rod, just to connect two points in this engine, doesn't make sense. So it's bent by some accident. Jeee. When, and by what, I have no idea. The piston that sat on it, was not the broken one. I guess it was bent somewhere in the 40 years before I had it.

The more I learn about this engine, the more I feel like selling it as scrap and getting me an other one built in!

Thanks for the tip!
Cheers
Rob


glort

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2018, 04:42:40 AM »
The more I learn about this engine, the more I feel like selling it as scrap and getting me an other one built in!

That may well be the smartest option. You should be able to get more than scrap for it I would think.  Slap it back together and sell it as needing a rebuild.

It would be unwise in the extreme to rebuild the engine with a bent rod. That is just asking for more problems waiting to happen. The geometry of the throw will be out and that could lead to  Thrusts and forces on the piston and other places in the engine that are not meant to be there.
 The new piston that was scuffed and chipped, was that attached to this rod by any chance?  Could be the rod is no longer clearing the piston skirt properly at BDC.

If you are going to replace the rod, you would be unwise not to rebuild the bottom end while you are at it.  Being in a boat there is a good chance the engine will have to come out to remove the rod and install a new one anyway.

If you take the engine out, replacing it with a newer, smaller, lighter water cooled unit would have many benefits.
Water cooling would be quieter for a start and if you live on the boat you could use the cooling water for heating the Boat and even showering if it has one.

Kubota, Yanmar and Isuzu all do small water cooled engines and your other option which may be cheaper is to fit a small car diesel like out of a Golf or similar. These would be easier to get parts for and I believe in Europe Diesel car engines can be had quite cheap.  You'll just want to find one with a manual rather than electronic Pump.  You would undoubtedly get much more power, probably better economy, have a smoother engine and it would weigh no more.

There would be a lot of other aircooled designs that are more up to date as well. Ruggerini, Lombardini, hatz, Deutz and others should be pretty plentiful in your part of the world and are all excellent engines. maybe you could even get a Chinese Yanmar clone.  Available in any HP and configuration you want up to about 30 HP. Very tough and reliable engines although not too quiet. Come in water and air cooled flavors.

As a matter of interest, How is the engine compartment air Circulated on your boat?  Does it just have big Vents on the deck that push air through with the movement of the craft of is there some sort of fan forcing air through?

Johndoh

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2018, 08:30:09 AM »
A VW 1.9 diesel indirect injection engine can be got here for about 50.00 Wiring consists of the starter wire and the wire for the cut off solenoid. In a car they return north of 50 MPG. These are simple engines to work on too and are water cooled. They idle about 850 RPM have about 68 HP and a load of torque. They aren't governed like a stationary engine but I bet glort is right it would work in a boat. (might need an electric fan in a confined space)
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Rob PetterPJ2

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2018, 09:36:33 AM »
The more I learn about this engine, the more I feel like selling it as scrap and getting me an other one built in!

 The new piston that was scuffed and chipped, was that attached to this rod by any chance?

If you take the engine out, replacing it with a newer, smaller, lighter water cooled unit would have many benefits.
Water cooling would be quieter for a start and if you live on the boat you could use the cooling water for heating the Boat and even showering if it has one.

As a matter of interest, How is the engine compartment air Circulated on your boat?  Does it just have big Vents on the deck that push air through with the movement of the craft of is there some sort of fan forcing air through?


Hi Glort,

the old, broken piston as well as the new, rubbed off piston were on the other rod, not the bent one.

I used to be happy with the air cooling, for it being simpler. A pump less that could malfunction, and less pipes to worry about, like leaking, getting stuffed, freeze, forgetting valves to open or close.
A later project would have been, to give the hot air two options out: one straight out, and one through a system through the boat, for heating.

Since it was just an open life boat, the engine was covered with a fiber glass case, and the fan of the flywheel pressing the air along the cylinders and out at the side. Not a place where you wanted to be sitting.
Since I built a cabin over the boat, it couldn't stay like that, and have the hot air fill the cabin, so I made a noise absorbing case around the engine, and built a system that reversed the stream of air, so that it sucked out the hot air through a wide chimney.

There's one problem with new investments in an other fuel driven engine or spending much on this one. Amsterdam wants to forbid having any boats with fuel driven engines and allow electric engines only. First they aimed at 2020 for this rule. But it is being delayed. Till when, we don't know. But the thousands and thousands of boats in the many canals have no loading unit nearby. The boats become worthless. At the same time, the city raised the tax for fuel driven boats to 5 times and makes a lot money from the boats it has criminalized (Like with the cars in London). Maybe that's the reason for the delay: the council counts on the tax revenues it gets from the fuel driven engines and already knows on what great projects (of friends..) to spend it on..
If this law passes, most people will try to sell their boat around the same time and no one will want to buy one...

This is why I thought I have this engine fixed and sell the boat and get me small one (because of the size of it I pay way more tax than I could have envisioned when I bought it, before Amsterdam started to raise the tax 5x) when it may still be possible. I thought it would be harder to sell a boat with a rotten engine.

It may be nice to have an electric engine for short trips through the Amsterdam canals, but not long trips. It makes a lot of boat owners, 99% of whom have their boat in 'their canal' near their home, pissed at the Amsterdam council. It's the destruction of capital. Where would they load the batteries? I now need a cable of 50 meters (over the street) to get from my apt to the battery of my boat, or power the tools. I'm lucky to have it that nearby For the bigger boats the electric engine and batteries cost a lot.
It's the uncertainty of the near future law what's disturbing. Also, as soon as 'everyone has an electric engine, they'll raise the tax for it as high as now for the fuel driven boats!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 10:53:43 AM by Rob PetterPJ2 »

sirpedrosa

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2018, 10:22:45 AM »
Hi Rob

If you change engines do not forget to match the weight of the current engine with the next one, even if it is necessary to add ballast.

It is necessary to keep in mind the laws of archimedes and dynamics.

And yes, an air-cooled gives less problems, especially in the channels that are shallow.

BR
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx

glort

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2018, 11:12:22 AM »

I thought it would be harder to sell a boat with a rotten engine.

It sounds like the thing will be worth nothing and you'll have to fire sale it anyway. Whoever does buy it will probably have to replace the engine.
Get it running and sell as is.  Might also be worthwhile looking at what you could get for it now as against what you will have to spend on it to get it going.
Might be better just to take a lesser price and save yourself the headaches.

Then again, if the decision becomes unpopular enough, they may scrap it.

Quote
Also, as soon as 'everyone has an electric engine, they'll raise the tax for it as high as now for the fuel driven boats!

Yep! All this environmental calp trap is nothing but a revenue raiser for Gubbermints and big Biz.

As I have complained before, this whole environmental, green save the planet thing is a complete crock of shit.  My Daughter was in Amsterdam last year and went back again this year. Loves the place and the boats on the canals. All their environmental do good crap will ruin that and they will all disappear and a tradition lost forever. In years to come when the drawbacks of this rush to everything electric wears off they will look back at their mistakes and people will realise they lost a lot and gained nothing.

It's all posturing and feel good crap! I'll bet there are 100 things on the rivers that are causing more pollution and problems than the boats which are ignored.  It's always the same. How do the authorities propose these boats all be charged up?  The Netherlands is still hugely Fossil fueled for it's power generation so where is the benefit? No exhaust from the boats but loads more pouring out the power stations.
I'm not against coal at all, it's being made a scape goat, but I am against bullshit and insults to my intelligence.

If the power supply there was like Norway and 99% Renewable Hydro, yes, they would have a point and I would have to agree with it but when it's all just  a load of crap to get on the green bandwagon and achieve nothing.... It's bullshit.  I spose some of the greenwashed will say you can put solar panels on the boat without having a clue that you'd need to cover a house with them to get any sort of power output practical for the application. Yeah sure, great if you take the thing out once a month  for an hour but if you actually want to go anywhere.....

mike90045

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
here's a theory concerning a bent rod and a replaced piston:

Starting Fluid (ether)

At some point, someone may have dosed the engine with ether while attempting to start it.   The ether fired, the engine broke a piston and bent a rod.

dieselspanner

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2018, 09:29:35 PM »
+1 for the bent rod being caused by a lung full of 'Angels Breath'

I've got an old Mccormick that had been well abused, when I pulled it apart one of the main bearing caps was broken in two, it had to have been the huge amounts ether (Start Pilot, ect)

I rebuilt it farmyard style, not having line boring kit I 'machined' the hump off the cap with an angle grinder and made a 'strongback' out of 1" square bar and bolted the bugger down as hard as I dare with plenty of Loctite to fill the gaps and lock the threads, 3 summers on and she's still holding together.......

As for the vehicle engine in a boat, I put a Perkins Prima, 2 liter DI from a small van (Meastro) in a 14 ton, 45' Dutch barge and it performed faultlessly for 9 years.

Non turbo and using the original water pump to circulate the cooling water through 20 meters of 2" pipe as a keel cooler, it was great. The only mod I had to make was having the prop re pitched a whole lot finer, the Perkins wanted to rev a bit more freely than the Merc unit it replaced.

As for the 'New Diesel Free Regulations' could you get away with having the boat as a hybrid?
Leave the diesel motor where it is and belt drive the prop shaft with a DC motor with the gearbox in neutral (assuming you have a 'box that will tolerate it, some have the lube pump driven off the input side) . When you run the diesel engine the motor could be used to recharge the batteries or you could run the diesel motor as a generator to charge the batteries (using a very small bank - who's going to legislate?) and propel the boat with the electric motor, keeping within the letter of the law, if not the spirit. After all you only need to leave the 'exclusion zone' and then you can return to the original system.

Cheers
Stef

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Rob PetterPJ2

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2018, 10:51:04 PM »
here's a theory concerning a bent rod and a replaced piston:

Starting Fluid (ether)

At some point, someone may have dosed the engine with ether while attempting to start it.   The ether fired, the engine broke a piston and bent a rod.

Smart!
Yep, the guy who sold me the boat started the engine a few times for me, with start spray. I never used it, because I then read one shouldn't.

Rob PetterPJ2

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
It sounds like the thing will be worth nothing and you'll have to fire sale it anyway. Whoever does buy it will probably have to replace the engine.
Get it running and sell as is.  Might also be worthwhile looking at what you could get for it now as against what you will have to spend on it to get it going.
Might be better just to take a lesser price and save yourself the headaches.

I saw that there are two Lister Petter part resellers in The Netherlands, that sell also the old stuff.
Now I think,

Plan A could be: go with the slightly bent rod and guess it won't break, since it hasn't done so yet in 4 years, get me a new piston again, and hone the barrels according what the manual will say.
Or get me a new rod as well, if it's not too expensive and when I can put it in while the engine stays where it is. The block has doors on either side, I think I can reach the nuts of the rod on either side.

Plan B: maybe I should take the hole bloody monster apart, as the job for the winter, check all details, clean it all, and see if I discover the cause of it being too hard to start by cranking it by hand (without start pilot, as the dealer who sold me the boat did!), and, if its worth it, rebuild it all and make it look gorgious and function well.

I wish Perkin's shipment would be delivered (the manual especially!)
I'll keep you guys posted!

Johndoh

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2018, 11:44:16 PM »
I think the barrels will need rebored rather than honed. As for the rod it will affect compression and possibly make the engine run poorly, a bent conrod is a weakened conrod. A new conrod isn't too expensive. You may need to check the valves to make sure they are sealing properly and are in serviceable condition. From experience there really aren't any shortcuts to get the engine running right, but it would be worth it.
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mike90045

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2018, 12:22:48 AM »
What is the availability of BioDiesel and using it to avoid the Tax ?

glort

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #87 on: November 01, 2018, 12:47:57 AM »

Are you planning to keep the thing short or long term or intend to sell it?
If you want to sell it for something smaller then I'd be spending the least money to get it going and put it towards the new boat. If it's running or Completely rebuilt, I don't see the price you will get being all that different.

I thought about the Train alternative ( Engine> generator> electric motor) but I figured the do gooders have decreed fossil fuels as the devils work and would have Kyboshed that as well.

Maybe Rob needs to get a hold of the specifics of the proposed stupidity to see if that or the biofuels idea is within loopholes he can exploit and what the wording of the proposal actually is.

mate and I have had a Pact for some years now. Either one of us Comes into money we are going to build ourselves a gas turbine Driven jet boat.
Nothing like the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning or the coolest engine startup sound in the world. Might even be able to run it on a Veg oil blend?

Rob PetterPJ2

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2018, 08:33:01 AM »
Hi you all

Amsterdam just doesn't want any engine that smokes. No hybrids either! Not even two engines (electric for city use, fuel for out going trips) That's what they'd announced, earlier. Actually they want to get rid of all the private boats, so you should always hire one for a canal trip. Everything commercial. They do gooders seem to envision a Disney Park. Indeed, Amsterdam would not be Amsterdam anymore! If there's anything I like, it is taking pictures of all the crazy boats. Nowhere as colorful a collection as here!

Electric cars can load the batteries at the border of town, where diesel generators standing next to the loading units, produce the electricity...
Biodiesel is already standard. And then we have to put a drop of extreme poison in it to kill the bio, to not let it stuff the pipes...

I've tried to separate from my boat earlier, but it's also my darling, that I love and sometimes hate. It's also my floating garden house, in front of my place, and a guest room for two. Hard to decide. But getting the engine to start by hand, which is now too difficult, is where I'd love to get.

The valves are really OK. To turn flywheel with valves closed is a hard job. I need two feet at the flywheel to get it over the compression.
I'll investigate the costs of a proper renovation. And be happy to use all you guys knowledge.

Johndoh
why you think the barrels need a new bore? To keep the barrel walls perfectly straight, maybe?


Johndoh

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Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2018, 08:50:48 AM »
I thought you fitted over-size pistons and rings? 5 or 10 thou is a lot of metal to hone off if the pistons are oversize.
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