Author Topic: Metro Premium Listeroid  (Read 827 times)

38ac

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2018, 12:03:13 AM »
Was not taken that way at all Stef! All is good :laugh:
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ajaffa1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM »
Hi Dave and welcome to the forum. I very strongly advise you to follow the wisdom dispensed by 38ac. Strip it clean it, get the sand out of it, seal the inside with something that won`t break down in oil. I found casting sand in my Dursley Lister, 60 years after it was made, the only reason it hadn`t caused a problem was that they sealed the inside of the crankcase with a red paint that was still in place.

If, when you dismantle your Roid you find scoring on the crank journals this can probably be safely polished out. The white metal bearings can not be salvaged as they are now impregnated with abrasive material which is impossible to remove. Toss the bushes/bearings fit new ones be totally anal about cleanliness during assembly, Flush out the sump before starting and you should be good for years to come.

Bob

glort

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 01:42:47 PM »

I think my roid is a " Premium" Model.
It has/had all the faults available..... Sand in the crank case, non rotating lifters, unbalanced flywheels.... and that's only what I have seen so far. I'll bet there are other things to do with the cam gear alignment and all the other common problems as well. Mine is an Imperial.  I think the difference between  all the brands is the name on the crankcase cover. 

They must go to extra effort to get all the faults in a particular machine. Laws of probability would dictate you only got half on average if it was left to chance!

ajaffa1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2018, 02:54:06 PM »
Will you cut it out. There`s only room for one whingeing Pomie B*stard around here. That said you could be right, it takes an enormous amount of effort and ineptitude to produce a Listeroid in which nothing is right and everything is wrong. Recommend you ship it to 38ac, he likes a challenge.

Yes, I am ducking already, expecting a barrage of abuse and heavy tools coming my way.  :laugh:

Bob

Offgrid1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2018, 10:18:53 PM »
Since I will be tearing this beast down completely; is it possible to add an oil pump, or has anyone here tried it. I would be much more confident in the long run if the engine were pressure lubricated. Even though the word "Premium" is written with raised letters in the crankcase casting, it seems that the only premium feature is the extra vee belt pulley and a water pump. Thoughts anyone?

BruceM

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2018, 03:08:22 AM »
With a Listeroid you are stuck with splash lube only.  The sump has been changed so you can't just add the oil pump back in.  I suggest my ''sock in a box'' gravity fed bypass filter box just inside the big crankcase door.  Massive oil flow down that door due to the dipper. 

There's nothing wrong with the splash lube with the tapered roller bearing mains- that aspect of the Listeroid works well and no one has ever reported a lube related failure.  I like the utter simplicity of splash lube.







ajaffa1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2018, 11:54:59 AM »
Hi Offgrid1, I`m with BruceM on this, splash lubrication is more than adequate. Even on the original CS engines there was no pressurized lubrication, as you would expect in a modern engine. The oil pump just lifts oil and squirts it into a weir above the crankshaft bush bearings, after that it`s all down to gravity. I believe that some more recent Roids have pressurized oil flow but I doubt that is an improvement on the simplicity of the originals.

Bob

38ac

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2018, 11:55:53 AM »
Glad you have decided to take it down. It's really not that daunting unless one is very uncomfortable with a wrench in his hand.  Biggest challenge is usually the flywheel Gibb keys. If a suitable puller is used FIRST (instead of after the heads are messed up by bodge methods) they will come free.

The oil pump's role in a CS type can easily be misunderstood. None of the CS types are pressure lubed even when they have an oil pump.  The oil pump in a CS or clone serves two purposes, it supplies oil from the lower sump to the  bushing type mains after which the oil runs into the upper shelf in the sump where the dipper on the connecting rod picks it up and splash lubes the rest of the internal workings. The excess oil in the upper sump overflows into the lower sump.   Thus in the original design the lower sump can virtually empty yet the engine will still be fully lubricated as long as there is enough oil to keep the upper sump near full.

Several things for you to consider prior to going to all the effort and cost of adding an oil pump, this is assuming your engine is similar  to the handful of Metro engines I have had my fingers inside of.
A- Your Metro has tapered roller main bearings not bushings and they are happy with what ever oil gets splashed on them.
B- The Metro does not have the second shelf in the crankcase thus lubrication is dependent on proper oil levels being maintained.
C- Go on with your build without an oil pump. When you get it running again start it up and let it run for a minute or two. Shut it down and quickly remove the crankcase door (warning have plenty of rags handy)  take a look inside and decide if any additional oiling is needed, ;D
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38ac

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2018, 11:57:18 AM »
Sorry Bob,
You inserted that reply while I was two finger typing up mine.

The lone pressure lubricated engine type that I am aware of is the high speed short crankcase versions sold as the GM90 by Satyajeet  or LG series by Lovson and likely others i have never seen.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 12:04:41 PM by 38ac »
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ajaffa1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2018, 12:16:28 PM »
Apology accepted, although you have nothing to apologize for.  I should perhaps apologize to you for suggesting Glort send his Roid to you for repairs.  :laugh:

Typing slowly is not a crime and allows one to think before typing. I wish some keyboard warriors would do the same. It also emphasizes how much effort you put into your posts on the WOK. Thank you.

Bob

Offgrid1

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2018, 01:15:13 PM »
Thank you for good advice and solid logic. In addition to all of the reasons stated for not using pressure lubrication, which in fact was more accurately pump assisted splash lubrication in the first place, is that this is a stationary engine. I don't think I need to be concerned about oil starvation because of operating at an angle (e.g.. hillside). Simple is better.

38ac

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2018, 04:16:17 PM »
Going back and looking over old postings on the subject I think that the guys were trying to fix sand problems with oil pumps. Many rod bearings were wiped out a few hours and it was speculated that they were not getting enough oil so things like hollow dippers and oil pumps were thrown at the problem.  One poster announced that  the real issue was the holes on top of the big end of the rod  because they let sand in the bearing and promptly went on the hunt for solid top shells. India was glad to respond to the request and added oil pumps to a few specially ordered  single sump, roller bearing engines where functionaly they did nothing,  but they did allow the owner a claim of the fact. 

Make no mistake about it  I appreciate what the guys were trying to get done on a dime and in an engine shed. My reason for posting is so that nobody goes towards thinking that ended up being wrong, it is  not to demean those pioneers as their hind sight is as good as mine, 20/20
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 04:18:40 PM by 38ac »
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BruceM

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2018, 09:18:54 PM »
I remember the move to hollow dippers; it was in the era when I was new to Listeroids.  Several off us, including Jack Beck (Hotater) noticed a spalling failure of the upper bearing shells; the area was right at the impact point for power stroke.  The white metal would flake off in that area. This lead to the hollow dippers in an attempt to increase oil to the upper bearing, and with hollow dippers, the grooves in the upper shell where counter productive to maintaining a oil film.  It had nothing to do with sand damage, which is quite distinctive and obvious.

In hindsight, I suspect that G. Breckenridge and other importers had gotten a batch of poor quality bearing shells, and this was fundamental cause of the spalling of the upper bearing shell. I did have spalling after the dipper, but not after putting in the new solid upper bearing. I haven't tried going back to grooved upper bearings.



38ac

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2018, 10:36:44 PM »
Ooops, I should have refreshed myself on those old postings prior referancing them. Most of the learning curve was accomplished prior to my arrival on the scene.

Bad batch of India parts?? Impossible ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 10:53:51 PM by 38ac »
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Matt12

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Re: Metro Premium Listeroid
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2018, 06:17:32 AM »
premium = washed the salt out of the beach sand before using it.
It's not every day you get free 'lapping compound' with your new engine.