Author Topic: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor  (Read 499 times)

old seagull man

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single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« on: September 16, 2018, 02:12:46 PM »
Are capacitor controlled alternators worth considering or should you stick to something with an AVR control.
I notice a lot of  honda and mid priced gens seam to be regulated this way.

Block diagram below

EdDee

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2018, 06:20:24 PM »
Common and reliable...until the cap blows and you can't find exactly the right one to refit it with.... had this on my yanmar auto start diesel... worked very very well, until.... long story short, I replaced the gen with an avr based unit ultimately... although more prone to failure with the avr units, avr's are dime a dozen off fleabay...
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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mike90045

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2018, 06:21:24 PM »
It ought to be pretty good, at least to run gear in an emergency. 

As is, it's pretty dead simple, an AVR is more complex = more things can go bad.

 Do you read anywhere about those generator s burning things up ?

EdDee

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2018, 06:25:02 PM »
mine came close to trashing the household electronics a few times... output would drop to 170vac and then spike to 250, settling back to 230... the exciter cap was breaking down....
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

ajaffa1

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2018, 10:43:35 PM »
Hi OSM, exciter capacitors are very reliable, I have been servicing an old Honda generator recently. It`s nearly 20 years old and still going strong.

If you are going down the AVR route buy two and then you have a spare. I try to avoid them as the electrical storms we get here in northern NSW blow them up. I have the same problem with the electronic controllers on washing machines.

Bob

mikenash

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2018, 11:57:28 PM »
Here at work we have six or seven 2.2kVa Honda-clone Chinese generators.

I keep a couple of AVRs and a couple of pull-start assemblies and a carburettor "on the shelf" here as a convenience

They are cheap:  AVR maybe $35?, starter maybe $30?,  and carb is about $25 when the carb "kit" is about $17 so not worth bothering with

We use them on site out on farms, often a long way from mains power, to run power tools on service trucks - so they have to be in working order, hence spares here

I have retired one recently and am considering retiring another which has stopped a couple of times - service life seems to be about seven or eight years?

But REALLY the lads have them in their service vehicles to run the microwave and the toasted-sandwich maker

Swapping parts such as a carb or an AVR is very very easy

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mike90045

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2018, 01:24:29 AM »
Here at work we have six or seven 2.2kVa Honda-clone Chinese generators........

I have retired one recently and am considering retiring another which has stopped a couple of times - service life seems to be about seven or eight years?...

7 - 8 years ?  very impressive, what clone company makes them ?

mikenash

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2018, 02:19:46 AM »
They are badged as "Condor"

BUT

IMHO it's important to think of them just as you would of the Rajkot "Listers" . . . .

In that it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the colour of the paint job or the stickers on the bodywork.  It's all about the importer's relationship with the supplier in China

These old Condor ones haven't been available for years.  But, these days, we buy generators and parts off a local vendor/importer who both sells and services these units and who stocks a whole warehouse of parts for them - as luck would have it, only 20Ks from our work

The woman who runs the company is great and says that the Chinese factory which makes the components that are bolted together and which she has branded as Launtop actually make parts for Honda as well.  On several occasions she has received consignments of parts in "Honda" boxes with the Honda logo scratched out with big black felt pen . . . . she showed me a couple

I guess she has a reputation to maintain and she has worked to organise a quality supply-line for that?

But the badge/paintjob/sticker doesn't mean anything I don't think

I know she exports gensets, pumps, machinery to the Pacific Islands badged as "Launtop" so I guess she is either the major NZ importer or perhaps part of a franchise using that "brand name"

See image of a typical Launtop machine?

I replaced one of our seven-year-old ones a couple months back and paid a bit under $500 including tax for a 2800W unit like the one pictured, just smaller

If we get five years out of it, at $100 a year it's a good deal from our POV

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old seagull man

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2018, 05:44:39 AM »
Ok i will come clean,  The reason for the question is:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8365.0

There is a supply of 7kva alternators, with one of our regular suppliers. And im looking for a gen head for my new zs195.
I'm also on the trail of a ST 5k head, that my need a bit of work to be reliable, and these Italian gen heads came up. but they are only single bearing, type.
So im headed in two different directions.

The 7k is a 3000 rpm gen, while  the ST is a 1500 rpm.
 my new laser tachometer tells me the engine is happiest at around 1650 rpm. (ps thanks to all those who mentioned the cheap Chinese ones in there threads )
So i can drive a 3000 rpm unit with a flat belt around the flywheel or  a 1500 rpm unit  off the pulleys in the flywheel.

Higher rpm equals more wear, but the gen wont be running 12 hours a day, Unless we get another 3 day blackout like last year.

So that's were i stand.

Make a bearing mount and drive assembly for the 7k and have a modern brush less gen. Or clean up the China 5k and have a classic gen head with AVR, though im guessing i will need to buy a new one and replace the bearings as well.

Suggestions, ideas , insults, all welcome.

Andrew..

PS She in doors said, that it wouldn't look right with that tiny little silver thing next to that big motor, the ones on the internet a as big as the motor,
when she so the generator, it the warehouse. Normally the comment is "that's not going  in the boot of my car". Lol.

glort

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 07:10:11 AM »

Myself, I'd probably go the ST route.

Have the slip rings machined, get new quality bearings and you are pretty much good to go. They will both have AVR so should be similar in output. the greater mass of the ST would also be an advantage in stability although with the engine you have that shouldn't be too much of a concern.

 The later model machine is likley to be no better in quality as it too will have it's manufacturing shortcuts and imperfections. I wouldn't be too worried about the 3000 RPM, the main wear will be bearings and they would still last many hundereds of hours and the time and cost to replace them is no big deal.
There is work in both of them so much of a muchness there.

Be smart about your decision of which one to go with. Tell the Mrs you prefer the other unit but you will listen to her and take her advise because she is usually right about these things so you'll get the ST. Milk it for all it's worth and make it seem like you are going soley on her advice.  That way there will never be a problem with anything you want to do to it or getting funding approval in the first place.  She will proudly tell people about your setup and encourage them to go see it and for you to demonstrate.  If you go the other way.... " I told you the other one looked better, you should have listened to me. No you are not spending any more money on it and you already spend too much time with it. You care about that thing more than me.......
You know how it works.

Put the icing on the cake and when you have it all set up, name it all after her. THIS is how you have your toys and the Mrs approval as well.   :laugh:
Once you have it, think of something to tell her, " Geez glad I went with that one you said, I didn't think of it at the time but this one is so much better because of...XXXX and the other one would have not been as good because of .... XXX.
Be careful though, too much of a good thing and you'll get major disapproval unless you go with her every decision..... Although you may never notice any difference if your mrs is at all like mine.

Quote
Normally the comment is "that's not going  in the boot of my car". Lol.

You need to buy her a ute.   ;D

ajaffa1

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2018, 10:58:03 AM »
Hi SOM. I will try and strip down the Chinese ST5 I got new for nearly nothing. I have been too busy with trying to keep her indoors happy to have much time. I will try to take a run at it next week and post some photos so you can make an informed decision. My personal opinion is that bigger is better when dealing with mechanical or electrical equipment. I especially dislike anything that requires a magnifying glass to see. (old age requires spectacles)

As for your Wife I strongly recommend that you think twice about deceiving her or manipulating her as per Glort`s instructions. My Wife would see through it in a moment and my life would be hell for weeks to come.
I guess Glort gets away with it because his Wife trusts him implicitly. I imagine that it would be very hard to live with a man who photographs half naked women for a living, unless your personal relationship and commitment to one another is total and honest. Hat off to him.  8)

Bob

glort

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2018, 01:08:05 PM »
I especially dislike anything that requires a magnifying glass to see. (old age requires spectacles)

That is so many things these days!

I know my eyesight isn't improving but they are definitely printing things smaller than ever before. I had a through eye test about a month ago and the glasses I need for close up are still very weak.  I am buggered if I can read so many things now on labels though. They print all sorts of useless certification logos and rubbish on things but the info you want/ need to see is in microprint. I DO need a magnifying glass to see things and have just bought a couple of Loupes for that reason.

Wearing glasses to see small stuff is giving me the irrits and not improving my disposition. Thinking about going and seeing about laser surgery to put my eyes right before they get any worse.

[/quote] My Wife would see through it in a moment and my life would be hell for weeks to come.
I guess Glort gets away with it because his Wife trusts him implicitly. I imagine that it would be very hard to live with a man who photographs half naked women for a living, unless your personal relationship and commitment to one another is total and honest. Hat off to him.  8)
[/quote]

If I say so myself, I'm also a pretty gun salesman as well. I guess that helps.  :0)
That said, she has unusualy stepped in recently and put the Kybosh on some desired acquisitions till I get rid of some crap and get the shed organised.
I could get around her pretty easy but her ace in the hole is i know she is right and talking sense.  I hate it when she does that!!   >:(

People have asked me for years what my wife says about me going out and photographing naked women?  There is only one thing she has ever asked:
" How much did they spend?"
It translates into " How much can I now go and spend".  She has never had anything to worry about which is why she doesn't.  I'm certainly no picture or prize catch and I was lucky to find the only woman in the world with such a strange taste in blokes to take up with me.  I tell her all the time she could have done so much better if she had married a decent fella.

I can honestly say I did once have a client put the hard word on me. Went straight over my head the first time till she came out with something blunt enough even I couldn't miss.
 She was one of the most unattractive women in looks and personality I have ever come across in all my born days.   :o  The fact she was trying to chat someone that looks like me up would also call her intelligence into serious question.  Be great to say that I had some beautiful, young intelligent woman interested in me but I couldn't even lie to myself that bad.
It was a great lesson in what a woman must feel like to have some undesirable bloke hitting on her. Not good!
Fortunately my son must have got his good looks from his mother. He had women tripping over him all the time to the point it used to annoy him and his sister who complained girls only wanted to be friends with her so they could get to him.

If the Mrs is going to see though your " compliments", you're not selling it properly.  I recommend the book " How to master the art of selling anything" by Tom Hopkins.  It's old but the stuff still works really well and it's not dishonest or misleading, quite the opposite. Just tells you how to put things the right way to make people see sense and logic mainly.

Of course that means there has to be a legitimate reason to buy something in the first place which is a critical missing factor for most of us in this application!

Barenburg

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2018, 01:17:35 PM »
I'm in the states so maybe my opinion on the ST-5 is irrelevant if you have only 220 - 240V loads.

I went through four ST's without finding on that could be useful running both 120 volt and 240V loads.

I finally settled on this Harbor Freight 10KW unit for $240 (on sale).

https://www.harborfreight.com/10000-watts-max-7200-watts-rated-belt-driven-generator-head-45416.html

It has been very stable on unbalanced loads.  An since it is rated way over what the 6-1 will ever produce should last quite a while.  (I will have a spare capacitor on hand though...)

I'd have saved a lot of money had I just went the 3600rpm route first.  I would have tried this with or without brushes / AVR.

BruceM

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 03:26:35 PM »
Thanks for your report on the ST-5's and the Harbor Freight head, Barenburg. My experience with ST-3's is also that even the slightest imbalance of 120/240V loads causes bad noise and vibration of the ST-3, as well as very poor leg to leg regulation. Fortunately I only need 230V from my ST-3 and generate 120 at my shop and laundry room via step down transformer. I've previously reported my contempt for the unacceptable QC and quality on the ST's being imported to the US.

Given the lack of affordable smaller 1800 rpm generator heads other than the ST's, the HF head does look like the bargain of the 3600 rpm units.  I think you are not the first to make that logical selection and I'd love to hear from others about it's reliability over time.  How many hours do you have on yours?




Johndoh

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Re: single-phase brushless synchronous alternator with capacitor
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2018, 09:33:16 PM »
I especially dislike anything that requires a magnifying glass to see. (old age requires spectacles)

That is so many things these days!

I know my eyesight isn't improving but they are definitely printing things smaller than ever before. I had a through eye test about a month ago and the glasses I need for close up are still very weak.  I am buggered if I can read so many things now on labels though. They print all sorts of useless certification logos and rubbish on things but the info you want/ need to see is in microprint. I DO need a magnifying glass to see things and have just bought a couple of Loupes for that reason.

Wearing glasses to see small stuff is giving me the irrits and not improving my disposition. Thinking about going and seeing about laser surgery to put my eyes right before they get any worse.

My Wife would see through it in a moment and my life would be hell for weeks to come.
I guess Glort gets away with it because his Wife trusts him implicitly. I imagine that it would be very hard to live with a man who photographs half naked women for a living, unless your personal relationship and commitment to one another is total and honest. Hat off to him.  8)
[/quote]

If I say so myself, I'm also a pretty gun salesman as well. I guess that helps.  :0)
That said, she has unusualy stepped in recently and put the Kybosh on some desired acquisitions till I get rid of some crap and get the shed organised.
I could get around her pretty easy but her ace in the hole is i know she is right and talking sense.  I hate it when she does that!!   >:(

People have asked me for years what my wife says about me going out and photographing naked women?  There is only one thing she has ever asked:
" How much did they spend?"
It translates into " How much can I now go and spend".  She has never had anything to worry about which is why she doesn't.  I'm certainly no picture or prize catch and I was lucky to find the only woman in the world with such a strange taste in blokes to take up with me.  I tell her all the time she could have done so much better if she had married a decent fella.

I can honestly say I did once have a client put the hard word on me. Went straight over my head the first time till she came out with something blunt enough even I couldn't miss.
 She was one of the most unattractive women in looks and personality I have ever come across in all my born days.   :o  The fact she was trying to chat someone that looks like me up would also call her intelligence into serious question.  Be great to say that I had some beautiful, young intelligent woman interested in me but I couldn't even lie to myself that bad.
It was a great lesson in what a woman must feel like to have some undesirable bloke hitting on her. Not good!
Fortunately my son must have got his good looks from his mother. He had women tripping over him all the time to the point it used to annoy him and his sister who complained girls only wanted to be friends with her so they could get to him.

If the Mrs is going to see though your " compliments", you're not selling it properly.  I recommend the book " How to master the art of selling anything" by Tom Hopkins.  It's old but the stuff still works really well and it's not dishonest or misleading, quite the opposite. Just tells you how to put things the right way to make people see sense and logic mainly.

Of course that means there has to be a legitimate reason to buy something in the first place which is a critical missing factor for most of us in this application!
[/quote]

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