Author Topic: Concerns About My First Real Test  (Read 1076 times)

mikenash

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2018, 09:53:39 AM »
FWIW I went to Utterpower a while ago and copy/pasted a lot of George's stuff

Quite a bit if it is just incorrect, but that's just a function of learning-by-doing.  But it seemed to me some of the stuff on ST heads an related topics has merit

I have also stolen things like the Lister Dating page at OldEngine

I don't think this is abuse if I'm not circulating or selling or even sharing - I just like to have the information myself

glort

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2018, 10:46:32 AM »

I think I'm pretty much finished, just proof reading and trying to think of what I missed.  I think I have the basics and more covered along with plenty of helpful tips.

Given the length of it, what I was thinking to do is just put it on a page on my site so it can be downloaded and that will give me the ability to add anything I have missed later when pointed out.  Hopefully I'll get some feedback as to what people want to know and can add that in to make it as complete as possible.

I have tried to avoid waffling on but I feel some things need an explanation as there is so much that is contradictory to the repeated norms and If I just say,  Do or don't do this without explanation as to why, it will make no sense and be dismissed.  I have seen myself how it's possible to read something so many times and then even when you prove it's not right, for the misinformation to still be in your head and make you think something is wrong when you are doing it right.
there was so much I found to be just plain wrong with the parroted mantras in the veg game and writing this has reminded me I have literally forgotten more than I know.  Mate and I who was one of the most knowledgeable people about Biodiesel used to participate in a lot of veg forums but we both got sick of people telling us we were wrong when all they were doing was repeating the same old crap we had PROVEN was incorrect without ever getting their hands dirty themselves or testing a thing.

You get to a level where you know what works, you know what won't work even if you haven't tired it because you can relate things you have tested and in the end just do what works and works well.
There were a number of things we both worked out and presented on forums and were lambasted for.  When visiting said mate about a month ago, he brought some of these things up saying how they have now become  veg laws and everyone uses or advises the ideas that we came up with and were rubbished up hill and down dale for.  Guess some people did try them and get results.

One my mate pointed out was WI.  Got laughed at when I suggested that but now it seems many people are using it and advising others to.  Of course typically there are a number of people that claim to have come up with the idea!  :0)

As far as loosing information, don't know about that. Even if it does happen, people can figure things out for themselves.  The way veg is now used has come leaps and bounds  in the last 15 years and if everything was wiped out on it tomorrow, would probably advance quicker when all the huge amount of  bad and incorrect advise was removed.  People would have to go back to thinking and testing for themselves instead of just copying what the other guy did with no clue as to why he was doing it.

IF any one wants to chime in with any suggestions of what they specifically want to know, that will be good to check if I have covered it or not.
Other than that,  I should be ready to Publish tomorrow night all going well.


ajaffa1

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2018, 11:25:31 AM »
Hi Mike, I`m sure people who post information (right or wrong) on forums and web sites do it to be helpful or possibly deliberately misleading. Downloading it can`t possibly be any sort of a crime. Redistributing it may be. Keeping a paper or digital copy of something you found on the internet is often a good idea as a lot of sites don`t stay up for long. Just be careful, you can be sure that someone, somewhere is watching everything you do online. This may be benign curiosity or data harvesting so that political groups or advertisers can turn you into an asset. A lot of countries have recently introduced new legislation, forcing the internet service providers to store your metadata, so that it can be made available to law enforcement agencies on demand.

How do I know this? Many years ago I worked in IT and at the time GCHQ (British spying center) had 8000 employees and 64000 phone lines. I wonder what they were doing with all that bandwidth, I doubt they were watching re runs of their favorite TV shows. I also wonder how much bandwidth they now have access to and how many back doors into server systems worldwide. That`s just the UK, add the USA, China, Russia the Koreans N&S and you start to get a picture of what is really going on.

We have nothing to hide and so probably nothing to fear but if there is anything you want to keep to yourself don`t put it online, send a letter. It is still against the law, in most countries, to intercept or open someones mail without a court order.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2018, 11:39:21 AM »
Way to go Glort, you must have very tired fingers and soar eyes by now. Can`t wait for the big post, will let you know what I think of it and if there is anything you missed or needs clarifying.

I wonder if there is some way to keep the politicians and big end of town from trying to monetize your knowledge and experience. It would be a real downer if they changed the laws and etc just to fill their own greedy pockets.

Bob

38ac

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2018, 12:08:55 PM »
I have tried to avoid waffling on but I feel some things need an explanation as there is so much that is contradictory to the repeated norms and If I just say,  Do or don't do this without explanation as to why, it will make no sense and be dismissed.  I have seen myself how it's possible to read something so many times and then even when you prove it's not right, for the misinformation to still be in your head and make you think something is wrong when you are doing it right.
there was so much I found to be just plain wrong with the parroted mantras in the veg game,,,,

Glort
This is EXACTLY the same dilemma I faced with the mechanical side of things. May I compliment you for  stating in a much better manner than I could have.  I defend the pioneers who were trying to figure it out. I have the  deepest respect for people like George Breckenridge, Joel Koch, Mike Montieth and Gary Jones. That I have 20/20 hindsight ( or close to it) does NOT make me better  or smarter than these  men and others who were forging the path that we are all walking on today.  However I hold those those who simply repeated the early findings as Gospel with no other knowledge than a few operating hours as a different group. My name for them is "google smart"  ;)   

 May I encourage you to be forthright in debunking what experience has taught you to be wrong.
 
As for my contributions here there is nothing to copyright. What I have presented is nothing more than the same wisdom that 1000s of other motor men would contribute would they happen to get involved with these engines.  Expert I am not, I just apply what I have learned in close to 50 years with my fingers inside of engines.  You may notice that I stay clear of all electrical discussions and most of the alternative fuel  threads? I dont want my total ignorance of such to become common knowledge 8) 8)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 12:17:51 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

glort

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2018, 12:36:51 PM »
Can't see that ever happening Bob. Not because of alternate fuels anyway.
This stuff is all old hat now. It was in it's heyday back around the China olympics when fuel prices jumped and saving the planet  was all the rage when Al Bore came to notoriety.

Technically, you have been required to pay fuel excise on all biodiesel you used on the road.  A guy on a local forum went to do it once and the tax dept was stumped. they could see it was in fact a requirement but had no facility to take the tax and account for it. It think he's probably the only guy ever to attempt it.

By the same token, If you blend Diesel or Petrol with veg, even though the petrol component may be 5%, the law says you are required to pay excise on the whole amount you end up with, say 100L. 
Straight oil is fine, no tax on that.
To my knowledge no one has ever been fined for not paying their alternative fuel excise and only on guy has tried... and failed.

I reckon in the heyday of veg there may have been 150 people in Oz doing it. I'd bet there are less than 50 now.  I Knew everyone in and around sydney doing and most from other states as well but there are a handful of them left now and by oil I mean Biodiesel as well.
there were a lot of save the world types and I used to get sledged all the time because I had the audacity to say I wasn't doing it for the planet, I was in it for the money savings. that made me an " environmental terrorist" apparently.

Typically, these whinging do gooders were the first ones to give it away as they discovered this was much more effort intensive than just filling up with the devils fuel at the servo. There were a lot of people that got forced out of it as well by not being able to get a vehicle under 20 years old capable of running it.  I don't mind my old truck, I love it in fact but it's sure as hell not for everyone.

Gubbermints are basically  tragically run businesses but they have not yet quite got to the pint of spending a million bucks to get revenue from less than 50 people with no way to police or determine their actual usage anyway.
The only danger to the few people running veg is if we went to the same type of system as in NZ where you buy mileage tax credits. Doesn't matter what fuel you run then, you pay your road tax on miles not fuel.  Of course they manage to double dip on this as well. They still get their tax for non road use fuel like lawn mowers, Dirt bikes, boats etc by having the petrol taxed in the price but diesel having to pay the road tax separately.

You may be right Bob, the typing may have given me a sore hand. I was feeling it earlier wondering what I id in the yard today to make it ache. I was trimming trees with the chainsaw, getting boxes out the shed and moving crap to clean up but it feels like I have been gripping something tightly like when you go water skiing for the first time in a while and get an ache from holding the rope. 

Writing this was easy and fun, much less painful to write than another epic I had to do earlier in the year .

Hope people get some benefit out of it.  :0)
 



glort

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2018, 01:22:57 PM »

I hear you Garry.

What has always amazed me with the misinformation is the veg game is so much of it just does not stand up to logic, physics or common sense.
People will stick by and profess an ideal that if you took the same thing to any other interest or practice, you'd be laughed at.
  It's like when something gets to a certain application, it becomes different in that purpose to what it would do in any and all others.
I have seen this with other things as well. Groups hear something stupid often enough and it becomes an immutable practice, rule or law of Physics.

As an example, one thing I have always labeled as a ripoff and ridiculous are things called Injector line heaters. They are a bit of nichrome wire wrapped around some silicone tape and put on the injector lines of an engine supposedly to keep the oil hot between the injector pump and the injectors. Forget the many other flaws in the idea but just look at the power consumption of the things.  The people profiting from them make  a big deal of them being low wattage so they won't drain your battery ( which alone tells you the lack of credibility in the things and the people pushing them) and specify the power at around 50W total which would be spread over 6 lines normally.

The idea would translate to the belief that putting less than 10W of electrical heating into a pipe carrying about 1L of oil an hour is going to impart enough heat into said oil to make a noticeable difference to it's Viscosity.

Being an uneducated twit, I am google smart and quickly found an online calculator that told me that much energy into that much oil flow would be lucky to raise it's temp by 2 oC!  I didn't need a temp/ viscosity chart to tell me that's not going to do squat.  Of course forget the fact that these heaters are not insulated  and in normal operation would be losing a minimum of 50% of their heat output to the significant moving air currents in the engine bay from the fan as well as the forward motion of the vehicle. The glaring flaws in the idea make me want to bang my head on a brick wall in frustration.

Still, people will swear on a stack of bibles since they paid a fortune for what they could have made themselves for a couple of bucks, their vehicle runs better with them, they make starting easier and since installing them, their wife has gone from an A cup to a D cup just from sitting in the passengers seat of the car they are fitted to.
 
The Physics of the things themselves PROVE they cannot work or have any benefit yet people will refuse to acknowledge these facts that would never be disputed in any other field. If I said I'm going to heat water for a cup of tea by putting a 10W light bulb in a litre jug of water there would be a flurry of people pointing out the flaws in the idea and if I told them they were wrong I'd be rightfully taken as an ignorant moron.
Translate the same principals into something people want to believe and you can sell them shit sandwiches without the bread!

I know I'm a weirdo but it just baffles me why i seem to be the only one that looks beyond the hype at these things to the facts and principals of operation that will soon tell you if they are physically possible or not. I don't need to be smart to work it out, there are smart people who have set things up so I can just bang in the numbers to see if the simple maths adds up or not.

It rarely does but the more things fall short, the more people seem to defend it and claim it DOES work. 

Another one I tested with a very smart friend was the injection of HOHOHO gas into an engine.  We have all seen the claims of it improving mileage by 200%, tripling power and turning 90 yo's into Olympic gold medalists. 
A guy we got to know had a system and being a smart fellow clearly and quietly confident of the idea had us really wondering.

We set up a very controlled experiment with a diesel engine and spent an afternoon running  a variety of tests repeated in random order and documenting the results which were very consistent.  We could not identify a benefit  to the browns gas injection even when cheating to try and get the desired result. In fact even when going to extremes, we could not get a result when we expected to see one!
 
Still, people swear they get amazing results based on ideals which can be proven false in laws of physics.
We thought that just maybe there was something going on we were ignorant to but like the old adage of something being too good to be true....

Guess we all want to believe in a miracle and get something for nothing.
Difference is some of us want it enough to kid themselves it's real and others want to make sure they are not kidding themselves and it IS real. 

mikenash

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2018, 07:58:55 PM »
Hi Mike, I`m sure people who post information (right or wrong) on forums and web sites do it to be helpful or possibly deliberately misleading. Downloading it can`t possibly be any sort of a crime. Redistributing it may be. Keeping a paper or digital copy of something you found on the internet is often a good idea as a lot of sites don`t stay up for long. Just be careful, you can be sure that someone, somewhere is watching everything you do online. This may be benign curiosity or data harvesting so that political groups or advertisers can turn you into an asset. A lot of countries have recently introduced new legislation, forcing the internet service providers to store your metadata, so that it can be made available to law enforcement agencies on demand.

How do I know this? Many years ago I worked in IT and at the time GCHQ (British spying center) had 8000 employees and 64000 phone lines. I wonder what they were doing with all that bandwidth, I doubt they were watching re runs of their favorite TV shows. I also wonder how much bandwidth they now have access to and how many back doors into server systems worldwide. That`s just the UK, add the USA, China, Russia the Koreans N&S and you start to get a picture of what is really going on.

We have nothing to hide and so probably nothing to fear but if there is anything you want to keep to yourself don`t put it online, send a letter. It is still against the law, in most countries, to intercept or open someones mail without a court order.

Bob

+1 on that.  I'm often dismayed by the stuff that my children and grandchildren's generations will casually and trustingly put on line.

"Mother, should I trust the government . . . ?"

Johndoh

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2018, 09:41:23 PM »
Im looking forward to this missive Glort even though I will never be able to use the knowledge in Ireland. If you make fuel for any road going vehicle you must pay excise duty to the wastrels in Dublin. Even more irritating its almost impossible to get insurance on a car over 15 years old. You can join a vintage club if your car is over 30 years old and you can get insurance IF you have a car under 15 years old thats insured taxed tested etc and your annual mileage in the vintage/classic is limited to 3000 km. Of course the older cars would be much easier to get to run on alternative fuels bur really whats the point living here. Grrr
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

ajaffa1

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2018, 11:30:41 PM »
Wish I hadn`t left my old short wheel based Mitubishi Pajero in the UK when I came to Australia. It was the most wonderfully over engineered tool I have ever owned. It would go anywhere, tow anything and I`m sure it would run on WVO a dream.

Bob

glort

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2018, 11:46:50 PM »
Im looking forward to this missive Glort even though I will never be able to use the knowledge in Ireland.

Geez, I'm starting to feel pressure now.
Hope it's up to everyone's expectations and not a let down!

ajaffa1

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Re: Concerns About My First Real Test
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2018, 12:10:20 AM »
Hey Glort, no pressure and I`m sure we won`t be disappointed. The worst that can happen is that it will restart the conversation.

Bob