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Author Topic: Micro power gen  (Read 1139 times)

dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2018, 04:17:51 PM »
Hi Glort.

Nice to know that we could plot a course to Mars, well if we got Bruce to run the calcs!

Mike.

I'd dearly love a big ol' overshot grinding away on the SW side of the barn, there's even a case for it, when the barn was built it would have had a small man made canal to it, there are dozens of kilometers of them in our valley and there must be thousands of k in the Pyrenees as a whole, to provide water for the stock. There is a provision in the local agrarian bylaws to the effect that it's incumbent on a land owner to maintain them. Sadly, since mechanisation loads have been lost, and one of them served the barn I'm after.

The other problem is that a water wheel would want way more water than I'd be happy redirecting around the point where they pick up the valleys water supply. provided I don't ruffle the Mayors feathers I'll get away with quoting historic rights for just a fraction of the supply, in the unlikely event that someone notices and cops the hump.

Cheers
Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2018, 04:49:44 PM »
I did some checking and direct AC generation with frequency regulation via load is common and popular; it seems Glort nailed it. 

http://www.homepower.ca/ac_hydro.htm

I think with some diligence you should be able to find a completely tried and tested system to do what you need, Stef. 



mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2018, 01:42:43 AM »
Hi Glort.

Nice to know that we could plot a course to Mars, well if we got Bruce to run the calcs!

Mike.

I'd dearly love a big ol' overshot grinding away on the SW side of the barn, there's even a case for it, when the barn was built it would have had a small man made canal to it, there are dozens of kilometers of them in our valley and there must be thousands of k in the Pyrenees as a whole, to provide water for the stock. There is a provision in the local agrarian bylaws to the effect that it's incumbent on a land owner to maintain them. Sadly, since mechanisation loads have been lost, and one of them served the barn I'm after.

The other problem is that a water wheel would want way more water than I'd be happy redirecting around the point where they pick up the valleys water supply. provided I don't ruffle the Mayors feathers I'll get away with quoting historic rights for just a fraction of the supply, in the unlikely event that someone notices and cops the hump.

Cheers
Stef

Yep, you're right Stef

Probably the first question is "how many watts do I need to generate?"  And, of course, the answer is different if you have direct generation-to-house or if you have batteries and inverter(s)

If the latter, then a kW or so is probably fine 24/7 - which is the benefit of hydro, of course

Obviously I don't have a picture of your setup - but if there is steady flow, then there are many ways to build a channel and an undershot arrangement (if there is no fall but if there is flow) or an overshot if there is fall as well

Would it be possible to retain the flow of water to other users with an undershot something?

There are many youtube videos of wheels in the one-metre-diameter range; usually very poorly engineered by uninformed optimists but which demonstrate an ability to generate rotary motion from not-very-much

this sort of thing but better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZAVBaGryPA

Something like 300 watts 24/7 is probably equal to a solar array with a peak of 1500W when the sun shines, nothing at all in darkness, almost nothing when overcast and running at 15% output on winter days

Cheers

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2018, 02:39:27 AM »
I did some checking and direct AC generation with frequency regulation via load is common and popular; it seems Glort nailed it. 

I looked into regulation for induction motor generators some years back.  The controllers for IMAGS work on a fixed dummy load and then diverting because the load has to remain constant so the right caps can be used as the induction motors are not very flexible where switched loads are used. They are much better off with a constant and non variable demand.

It seems the MH generators are mostly controlled in the same way which I was a bit surprised about.  That being the case, I wonder what the difference between using an IMAG and a proper gen head would be?  The main advantage of an IMAG is it is generally cheaper to buy a motor than a generator.
If they are both going to be used the same way as far as control goes, I'm not sure what if any advantage a proper generator would have?

One advantage I can see with the IMAG is that for the output potential Stef has, a 15-20 HP induction motor could be used. What I have read suggests the use of flywheels as an advantage through the better reactive power available from them and the resistance to over speed which gives controllers a longer time to react. Not sure that would be an advantage with a constant load type regulator but it sure as hell couldn't hurt with stability just the same.
An IMAG would also be a cheap and easy way to get 3 phase if that was any advantage.

Are we confusing you Stef all trying to vicariously project our own MH passions on your opportunity?    :laugh:
You said you like the alternator idea because it is a simple and a sort of connect and forget for battery charging. With the right controller a direct generator could do the same thing but it depends how much practicality and "Play" margin you want as well. An alternator wouldn't need speed control at least. As long as it was turning at a decent speed under full load the unloaded speed wouldn't matter. Alts will go go way high without problem. Probably better to reduce or eliminate the flow at night though just to save wear and tear on the brushes and bearings.

A direct output Generator would be simple and I believe significantly cheaper.  A Low voltage system would require a charge controller ideally, certainly and inverter and a battery bank. You would have to check the batteries frequently but if you are like me and love to frig around with this stuff, then that may be a plus not a drawback.  You are very lucky in your situation has a lot of potential and you are not just locked into one single best option.

What you do to the point of generation is going to be the same. Your intake and piping and the turbine wheel will all be pretty much a fixed setup.  The variation will start at the generator you hang off the turbine.  From there everything will depend on which way you go with that.
I also reckon you could have 2 systems running pretty easily. Main power coming from a generator or IMAG and have a take off to a second turbine with an alternator charging a battery bank.

I think if you wanted a water wheel, you could have one running from the discharge of the main generation.  That is going to be far more dependent of flow than head  so if the main power shed is a but above it, you could discharge into a channel and divert that to the water wheel.  Wouldn't need a generator then, just have it for aesthetics OR, you could couple an alt to that and have it set up on the small battery bank.  Just depends on what you like and how much you are prepared to spend on it all.

So many decisions but I'm sure most of us here would love to have these sorts of problems to Figure out!  :laugh:

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2018, 03:47:51 AM »
On Alibaba there were seems to be plenty of turbines with generator in the 3K region. 
What I haven't seen is load management/regulators but I didn't spend much time looking for that.  It could be just an Arduino Uno, a frequency detect circuit and some solid state relays.
I'd be glad to help if need be, Steff.



glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2018, 05:47:14 AM »

The load controllers are there Bruce but from what I saw they tend to be larger capacity types. One of the suppliers I looked at had a complete 5 and 10 Kw set. Turbine, controller, jets etc.

For the asking price, I think they would have to be economical to import and save a lot of mucking around on setup.
Some of the suppliers I saw are very dedicated to MH offering a range of turbines from house hold to power plant size. Clearly there is a lot of demand for these products and they are well versed with them.

dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2018, 12:56:17 PM »
Hi All

No Glort, I'm not confused, overwhelmed, maybe!

This is exactly the type of thread I was looking for, it's a bit like a bunch of like minded engineers sat in the tea hut (or coffee hut in the US) working their way around some naval architects idea of a bilge and ballast system more suited to the Starship Enterprise, in order to get a practical design to suit the job in hand and still keep it under budget without pissing the management off.

And I get to cherry pick from the brains of people who's opinions I value before I cock it up all on my own!

It's going to be simple and hopefully inexpensive. Sure there's 5Kw of power to be had but I'm happy to use what's there inefficiently, as it's 'free' and live a relatively 'low wattage' off grid life. The barn will be a second home and if it's bloody hard work to live there in the winter months, we won't be there.

What ever happens it'll be fun, please keep the ideas coming..........

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2018, 03:50:19 PM »

 but I'm happy to use what's there inefficiently, as it's 'free' and live a relatively 'low wattage' off grid life.

" Low wattage"? 
This does not compute!  What is this evil of which you speak? I have over 80 solar panels on my roof to avoid such electical poverty and hardship.....

Going back to what YOU said YOU wanted......
1000W being Rolls Royce is laughably easy.  that's a 12V, 80A alternator.  You could couple that to your turbine, connect it to your batteries and you are there.  Would be a shame to not make better use of the potential of the site you have though.  Like I suggested,  180A 24V alt and you would never have a concern for power again and it's no more work than a much smaller system you'll have to be careful with.

You may be OK with that but how is Mrs. Diesel spanner with the frugal lifestyle?
I reckon never having to talk about her hairdryer or washer use would make for a much happier life than being on her back about when and how much she can use them.  :laugh:

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2018, 04:07:58 PM »
The economics of infrastructure cost (pipe run) would be the only thing that might steer me into batteries and the puny 1000W battery charger.  If the pipe run is not too long, then direct AC generation is hands down winner in my mind.  The simplicity and power of the direct AC generation and value of the substantial heat from the regulation system are very tempting, and the savings on batteries (the replacement cost goes on forever) is the clincher.




dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2018, 06:22:25 PM »
Thanks both,

Here's where I'm at so far,

1000w will be great, and, given what I've learned so far the 24 volt alternator is favourite, along with a couple of 150 ah deep cycle batteries. the idea of a 220v system without batteries is very tempting, especially with the offer of help with the design of the control panel.

I'll start scrounging up stuff and see where it all leads. As it's a 'project' rather than the next full time home, the funds are limited

It's going to be a 3 year project, minimum, we've had a mate staying with us this week and he's talked me into doing a 'Frank Sinatra' and coming out of (semi) retirement for a self propelled hover barge project, with a build in Scotland and trials on the Caspian next year. There's the advantage of some decent money against that of having to work in Kazakhstan on a four week rotation.

Keep the ideas coming, I still don't own the barn yet!

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2018, 07:36:56 PM »
If the place is to be a vacation cabin, you may find that a modest PV system with generator backup is far less costly.  The infrastructure cost for microhydro can be a substantial compared to screwing a few panels on your roof.

The hover barge project sounds awesome!


dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2018, 09:41:31 PM »
Hi Bruce.

The idea is for something like a summer residence, initially. we will only be 2k from our B&B. Which we'd like to let it out as a 'gite', a self catering holiday home, by the week, in the summer. That way we'll only have to come down once a week to sort the place out for the next guests, rather than be tied up 24/7 with breakfast, evening meals and people coming and going every couple of days. less money, but less work, we're not getting any younger!

The rules for conversion won't allow solar panels - don't tell Glort, he'll be mounting an attack on our local planning office! - and the water source is just on the other side of my boundary, so what ever I do has to be a bit discrete.

From what I've learned so far, a truck alternator, a couple of batteries and a home brewed hydro plant will be less than 500, I can pick up a couple of hundred meters of irrigation pipe for around 300, second hand, allow 300 for an inverter and another $200 for some cabling ect. and Robert is your mum's sister's live in lover......

If life unfolds anywhere near where I'd like it to, once the project is livable, going down the load controlled genny route, with a slightly larger pipe would be the way into the future.

Google 'hover barge at Fergusons shipyard' for some images of the last one I worked on, 'The Siberian'

There's not been many built, but they've been about for years, try this for awesome....

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/52tleq/columbia_helicopters_vertol_107ii_towing_a_hover/

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2018, 10:16:40 PM »
I wondered why a hover barge until I saw the ice.  Awesome machines.

No PV sucks, I can see why a small discrete microhydro is appealing. 

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2018, 10:51:16 PM »

"Conversion?   IS this something to do with the place is old and they don't want to contrast the appearance with new technology?

The alt and battery route is OK but at least make sure you get something substantial like the one I linked to.  That will give you a lot more than 1000w and make your life a lot more comfortable.

I would also keep an eye out for a Decent 3 phase motor. If you are working in an industrial type location they should be easy to find sitting round. a 10-15 Kw unit would be ideal.  Sounds larger than you need but they only convert about 50% of nameplate ratin in practical application so you need to over size.  You may also be able to find a gen head from a boat  but either one would do.

dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2018, 07:14:38 PM »
Hi Glort,

Yep, that's exactly what it is, whilst we're not quite in the Pyrenees National Park we're close enough that the local authorities want to keep it pretty for the tourists, sheep and tourists are the two staples industries here.

As I said I'm liking the 24v route, so I think that's what I'll start scrounging for first.

If I end up in Scotland it'll be like a free pass to Aladin's spare gear store and workshop, if it's anything like last time I was there..........

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.