Author Topic: Micro power gen  (Read 1378 times)

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »
Batteries may not be required at all, with good design.  3KW seems a perfectly luxurious home power service to me.  I've lived comfortably with far less for many years.  A backup generator should be all you need for some exceptional power need.




mike90045

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2018, 07:22:07 PM »
3kw is fantastic.   I can live with a 1500w inverter generator, and 4, 12V 100ah deep cycle batteries wired for 48V.  That gives the inverter some surge capacity, otherwise loads are running off the solar or generator

dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2018, 08:26:58 AM »
It's certainly looking good, apart from the humongous list of things to do and the three years or so it's going to take to do it all finding a Fisher Paykel motor will probably take most of that time.

In much the same way that the CS motors are thin on the ground in the US, F&P (and whirlpool, ect,) stuff is rare in Europe,

Perhaps the answer is international trade............

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2018, 01:41:16 AM »
It's certainly looking good, apart from the humongous list of things to do and the three years or so it's going to take to do it all finding a Fisher Paykel motor will probably take most of that time.

In much the same way that the CS motors are thin on the ground in the US, F&P (and whirlpool, ect,) stuff is rare in Europe,

Perhaps the answer is international trade............

Cheers Stef


https://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/laundry/washing-machines/parts-accessories/listing-1752234960.htm?rsqid=9bee560dfeb54160960f4ba0005341d6

and

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1752234960

and

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1746605740


or just search TradeMe under the listing number if the links don't work

or just go to www.trademe.co.nz and search for Fisher and paykel or maybe "fisher and paykel AND motor"

If you find the one you want (research the PowerSpout videos to see which is best maybe?) and get in touch with me

Surely I can just buy one and mail it to la Belle France?

How hard can it be?

Cheers

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2018, 02:26:15 AM »

You don' t NEED to go to a F&P motor Stef.
With the Hydro energy you have available, you could use a regular gen head if you wanted or any other low Voltage generator/ alternator.

The power you have available is way more than an F*P motor can produce anyway.  If I were you, I'd be looking for a  24v Truck alternator.
Anything from about 120 to 150A would match your generation capacity very well. The benefit of being able to do say 3+ Kw with a truck alt as against 1 kw with an F&P Motor is when you are running the bigger loads the generator will be supplying the power and your battery bank will remain at 100% capacity.

As Bruce Pointed out, you may not even need batteries at all or to make it simple and cheap, you could just have a couple of Deep Cycle marine/ Automotive type.  Pretty sure in Europe these alts are quite cheap and would obviously be widely available.

Quick look on fleabay  UK Found this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alternator-Prestolite-24v-180A-Wright-Bus-Routemaster/283123421364?hash=item41eb7890b4:g:FxoAAOSwR4hbgZJg


180A @ 28V is equal to 5kw!  For 99 quid, that's real cheap power.  Other thing is you can just bolt it up and it would work.  That would give you power at the sire and you could then find the f&p and play round with re wiring that..... At night if you liked by the light you would already have.   :laugh:

If you needed to conserve water a bit, You could go to a multi Nozzle system in the turbine housing.  Have 2 or 4 Nozzles and open as many as you need for the power required. I'm sure someone would have done an arduino program for that to make it automatic.

An F&P might be good for battery floating or low level loads but unless you ganged a few up, you'd be cutting yourself short of the full power production opportunity you have.

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2018, 03:58:55 AM »
I'll bet there's a self-speed regulating single phase AC power head for that level of flow and pressure. Screw all the conversions and their losses.

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2018, 06:03:27 AM »

I couldn't find any self regulating Gen heads in a quick search.
There are as came up Devices for controlling an electrical motor used as a generator.  They used a fixed constant load and then divert power AWAY from that to the primary load.  Seems a bit wasteful but I spose if you had something like an electric heater In the house so the power was put to use, It would be good.

Other thing that came to mind at least for initial regulation would be the old flyball governor.  Connnected to the turbine the thing could control a ball or free opening gate valve so the amount of water was regulated into the turbine.  Not sure how accurate it would be in this setup but on old engines they were said to be very good.

Another approach could be to use one of these electronic genny Controllers.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ESD5120-unit-for-generator-frequency-auto_1358316363.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.13.551165a7stjQXo

These are for engines and normally connected to an actuator that pulls on the throttle to control engine speed.  They have a lot of control features and would be about as accurate as one would get.  instead of it driving a throttle linkage from the actuator, I don't see why it could not be connected to a ball valve.
I looked for variable flow valves and they are available so would probably be able to control one of those but I think a free moving ball valve ( Wouldn't have to seal real well anyway) with a return spring would be a simple, practical and cost effective control  with 90% of the system designed for exactly the job required.

These things are designed to work with gen heads so the regulation would have to be very tight. I have read about setups using them and the general consensus is  once you set the things up they are very good and far better than and inbuilt regulation.
They can be bought as kits with the actuator pretty cheap and with a ball valve that was not to stiff on the supply line, I can't see why they would not work perfectly.

Seems Ready mage Turbine/ generator setups are pretty cheaply available too.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Alibaba-high-quality-water-energy-hydroelectric_60687775714.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.131.3c0fcd3cLwQpde

Even if these things cost 1000 euro to get one to France,  I think they would be well worth it.
There are a variety of people doing them on the site and they start at 5 KW which would be perfect.

Site lists 30Kw being available from a 45M head with a 10" Pipe.
Thats enough power to light up and heat a substantial greenhouse to grow summer produce all year round and get a premium price for it in the winter months!

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2018, 10:41:03 AM »

You don' t NEED to go to a F&P motor Stef.
With the Hydro energy you have available, you could use a regular gen head if you wanted or any other low Voltage generator/ alternator.

The power you have available is way more than an F*P motor can produce anyway.  If I were you, I'd be looking for a  24v Truck alternator.
Anything from about 120 to 150A would match your generation capacity very well. The benefit of being able to do say 3+ Kw with a truck alt as against 1 kw with an F&P Motor is when you are running the bigger loads the generator will be supplying the power and your battery bank will remain at 100% capacity.

As Bruce Pointed out, you may not even need batteries at all or to make it simple and cheap, you could just have a couple of Deep Cycle marine/ Automotive type.  Pretty sure in Europe these alts are quite cheap and would obviously be widely available.

Quick look on fleabay  UK Found this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alternator-Prestolite-24v-180A-Wright-Bus-Routemaster/283123421364?hash=item41eb7890b4:g:FxoAAOSwR4hbgZJg


180A @ 28V is equal to 5kw!  For 99 quid, that's real cheap power.  Other thing is you can just bolt it up and it would work.  That would give you power at the sire and you could then find the f&p and play round with re wiring that..... At night if you liked by the light you would already have.   :laugh:

If you needed to conserve water a bit, You could go to a multi Nozzle system in the turbine housing.  Have 2 or 4 Nozzles and open as many as you need for the power required. I'm sure someone would have done an arduino program for that to make it automatic.

An F&P might be good for battery floating or low level loads but unless you ganged a few up, you'd be cutting yourself short of the full power production opportunity you have.


Leece-Neville truck/bus alternator . . .

BruceM

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2018, 06:42:53 PM »
Glort's comment about regulating generator speed by a shunt load woke up my shoddy memory a little.

I saw a website of an engineer years ago who had something like 7KW via water power, and used a single phase generator head.  He used load shunting to regulate power frequency, with home resistive heating as the base load. 

3KW of 24/7 of resistive heating could cut Stef's winter wood use down dramatically, so that suggestion by Glort is right on the mark.  A water heating element in the water stream could be used to dissipate waste power when home heating is unneeded.  You could prioritize the shunt load- house hot water, heat house, waste heat. Use it or loose it!

Boy, would I love to have Stef's water power!

Shunt loading would likely be way easier than dynamic water flow regulation, though either is certainly viable. 




dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2018, 07:38:57 PM »
Hi All

Mike.

Thanks for the offer of posting parts out, I'll let you know..........

Glort.

This had sort of gone around in a circle, or maybe a spiral, I'm liking the 24 volt alternator option, a lot.

It appeals to my idea of simplicity, connecting straight to the battery and controlling it's own output, which is where I started.
With the output from a 24 v alternator I'd be prepared to run the whole place on a single battery bank knowing that the 'catch up time would be vastly reduced.

Bruce.

I read all your posts, in the hope I might learn something, all I ever get is reassurance that I know sod all about electronics, this time you've come up with something I can understand!

Whilst I don't think I could manage a set up as clever as the one you've just described, I like the idea of house heating with the surplus power.

I envisage a back boiler on the wood stove looping round through a hot water tank, radiators upstairs and finally through underfloor heating downstairs, putting a second set of underfloor heating pipes in before concreting the slab will be easy and peanuts.

In Kazakhstan I saw a system with a 3Kw water heating element in a 3" pipe running a thermo siphon system in a small building, electricity was cheap. If I had power to spare at night diverting it to a similar set up with it's own dedicated pump would be fantastic and bloody easy for the electrically challenged!.

So, the next question, I started to try and find out what size of Pelton wheel I'd need to drive said 24v alternator, found a site with various calculations and then glazed over when I got to the word 'abscissa'

Given the 40 meter head and a 3" (or 75mm) plpe, would anyone like to hazard a guess what size wheel would be best?

I don't need the answer to 6 decimal places, somewhere close on a cigarette packet will do!

Cheers
Stef


Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mike90045

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2018, 09:46:59 PM »
With hydro, you have to be aware of intake screens getting plugged up and loosing flow.  Daily checks are the norm, till you learn how well it's going.  When raining, windy or leaf fall season, much more frequent checks are needed. 
Any danger of icing up and loosing all flow, or nozzle being split from ice ?

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2018, 02:34:47 AM »
Hi All

Given the 40 meter head and a 3" (or 75mm) plpe, would anyone like to hazard a guess what size wheel would be best?

I don't need the answer to 6 decimal places, somewhere close on a cigarette packet will do!

Cheers
Stef

I can see where that question came from!
Interested myself I thought I'd look it up expecting to see charts that said for this to this output use this size.  Not likley!
With what they do give you I think it would be easier to calculate a rocket launch to mars!

What I did see indicated that one thought I had, that the turbine wheel would have a fair scope of power outputs and the more critical part would be how much water you could throw at it.  that seemed to be borne out by several sites I saw saying the started with the Nozzle size and number to determine the wheel size.  Also that the wheel sizes available are fairly fixed in that they tend to be standard increments.

Second gut feeling that was born out would be that bigger, up to a point, is better.  I saw 4" wheels and 8 and 10".  I reckon the torque would be better with the larger wheels and they would probably spin slower making gearing less involved to get the output speed down to something useable for the frequency. 

There seem to be a good amount of Pelton wheel offerings available on the US Fleabay site and much to my amazement, they seem to be available far cheaper than I'd have expected.  They may not hold up to years of use but they are certainly cheap enough to buy for testing  to find what the right size is.

This one looked a good starting point.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gemstone-Big-Cup-Pelton-Water-Wheel-Turbine-8-25-210mm-16-Cups/263876676122?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170221122447%26meid%3D156227a797a94492b1b36aac9ec66bb8%26pid%3D100752%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D263876676121%26itm%3D263876676122&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982


Also found this wheel and housing with typicaly Insulting and self sabotaging US seller postage rates.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gemstone-Pelton-Water-Wheel-Turbine-Housing-with-water-wheel-10-625-269-89mm/263876676121?hash=item3d70468a19:g:O0EAAOSw~AVYphD9#shId

Looks like it could output some decent power levels.

I really don't think the wheel size will be that critical, I think it's all going to come down to nozzle size.
That said, doesn't seem to be infinite variation of those either with most being in regular steps so might be a matter of trial and error.

Thing in your favour however is the great head pressure you have.

I would definitely be going to 4" pipe though.  Here 4" is cheaper than 3" because 4" is a standard where 3 is not.

mike90045

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2018, 03:49:35 AM »
the older power spout site, used to have a calculator for head/flow wattage

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2018, 07:17:46 AM »
the older power spout site, used to have a calculator for head/flow wattage

Plenty of sites have that, what Stef is looking for is what size turbine wheel to use.
The sites I saw that showed  how to calculate that would need the skills of a mathematics professor to work out.

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2018, 11:03:26 AM »
With hydro, you have to be aware of intake screens getting plugged up and loosing flow.  Daily checks are the norm, till you learn how well it's going.  When raining, windy or leaf fall season, much more frequent checks are needed. 
Any danger of icing up and loosing all flow, or nozzle being split from ice ?

Depending on the site and the flow you can always build a sluiceway and a water-wheel?

Then there are no issue around ice, leaves, stones, dirt or any of that stuff

The price of that simplicity is that the efficiency is half that of a well-designed pelton-wheel . . . .

But the maintenance and fragility is about 1% of what it would be with a pelton, screens, water pipes, adjustable nozzles . . . .

Just a thought