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Author Topic: Micro power gen  (Read 1368 times)

dieselspanner

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Micro power gen
« on: August 17, 2018, 05:56:58 PM »
Hi Guys

I posted a few months back about buying an off grid barn, still not mine yet, French Bureaucracy has to be seen to be believed!

Anyway, I'm doing my research a bit at a time, so.......

Anyone had any dealings with this system, or similar?

 https://www.currentgeneration.co.nz/shop/alternativeenergy/MICRO+HYDRO.html

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2018, 11:49:13 PM »
G'day Stef

I'm in New Zealand, of course - but in the wrong island from these guys

But if I can do anything that's easier to do locally, I'd be happy to help

Maybe if you approached them for contact details of previous customers who might have feedback on their product I could talk to them or go look at something if it was nearby-ish

I would guess they are well-made if they are locally built as we don't tend to build crap as it's such a small country that reputation is important.  But if the components are Chinese . . .

Get back to me if you like - or email me on mnash@waterforce.co.nz if you want

Cheers, Mike

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 01:03:20 AM »

Stef these are just F&P washing machine motors.  They are permanent magnet and very popular as wind and MH generators.
they would be easy for a man of your skills to set up. I have done a couple, one was a 7 phase and the other one was just a straight High voltage setup that I rectified and ran through a controller.  I have one the neighbour gave me the other week sitting up the back now.

There is lots of info on them on the net, just google F&P generator  and go from there.  You can re configure the winding's for different outputs and do a lot with them. I notice power spout sell all their parts from the housings to the motors and controllers even the pelton wheels separately so you could always just get the parts you need and do the rest yourself.  Pretty sure you wouldn't need any parts, these things would not be hard to put together and there is endless clever examples of what people have done on YT.

What sort of Flow and head do you have at the new place?   I would love to have somewhere to play around with MH.  With a constant water source it seems like the ultimate Alternative energy source to me.

Be interesting to see what you come up with for this.



dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 07:35:32 AM »
Hi Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, it's the last week of our summer season, as well as being busy we're knackered too, running a B&B would be a lot easier without people staying in your house!

Some detail from a 'live' site would be great, if you let me know which area you're in I'll chase up the suppliers for a few details.

Hi Glort

As to building my own, I've got my hands on a Pelton wheel, ex USA, and once the aforementioned season slows down and I've caught up on my to do list I'll have a play.

We live in a fairly steep valley so the water pressure here is pretty good, so much so that we have a reducer on the inlet, my first effort will probably be driving a 12v vehicle alternator.

As for head, there's around 40 meters vertical to the barn, and I keep the cable run short, or if I remote the plant to the bottom of the property, 40 m away I'd get nearer 50m.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 08:37:43 AM »

Are you going to be running another pipe or using what you have?
If so, what size is it?

With that much head,  even a 50mm pipe would give you very worthwhile power potential, far more than just running a car alternator.  You could be doing around 3Kw and a lot more if you put in a decent pipe of say 100mm.

If the water flow is constant, you could eay run your whole property off this or make a bit dent in your power bill while it is running.

LowGear

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 07:50:56 PM »
I've got a three inch pipe with 10 feet of drop.  Should I be paying closer attention to this thread?
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mike90045

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 08:54:59 PM »

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 12:12:37 AM »
Hi Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, it's the last week of our summer season, as well as being busy we're knackered too, running a B&B would be a lot easier without people staying in your house!

Some detail from a 'live' site would be great, if you let me know which area you're in I'll chase up the suppliers for a few details.

Hi Glort

As to building my own, I've got my hands on a Pelton wheel, ex USA, and once the aforementioned season slows down and I've caught up on my to do list I'll have a play.

We live in a fairly steep valley so the water pressure here is pretty good, so much so that we have a reducer on the inlet, my first effort will probably be driving a 12v vehicle alternator.

As for head, there's around 40 meters vertical to the barn, and I keep the cable run short, or if I remote the plant to the bottom of the property, 40 m away I'd get nearer 50m.

Cheers
Stef

G'day Stef

I live in the Central North Island near Palmerston north and I travel routinely in an area from Wellington in the south to Hawkes Bay in the north from my base near Palmerston North. 

I travel regularly to the Bay of Plenty and that trip takes me from my home area through the Taupo/Rotorua region

I am occasionally further afield as well

As it happens I have a property with a spring up a hill and something like 25 metres of head over quite a small horizontal distance - so I emailed back-and-forth to Mike at Current Generation to see if those units could make a contribution at my property but, alas, they cannot (I have water coming down the hill in a pipeline not "free").  He says a single PowerSpout unit is around $NZ3000

If you want to have a look on Google Maps you'll see the regions where I am or where I travel - I go other places as well, but less regularly

If Mike at Current Generation had a customer or two who would be prepared to show me around their site, I'd be interested to have a look for my own interest.  If he had suggested locations, I'd soon be able to say to you "yes" I can go see or "no" I can't

They look & sound like simple, robust bits of kit.  But they wouldn't be maintenance-free.  I would guess they need wearing bits replaced from time to time and his website suggests this is easy

Those 6205 bearings he mentions suggest a 25mm shaft and I guess there will be lip seals somewhere maybe?  But those 25mm SKF Explorer bearings are at the consumer end of SKF's product range so they won't be expensive

With a 270mm and 235mm rotor on a 25mm shaft I wouldn't think bearings would last forever?  However, metric bearings & seals are "off the shelf" anywhere in the world, and you could always keep a spare shaft "in stock"

I'll be interested to have a look at one myself if there is one suitably-located

Cheers, Mike

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2018, 12:21:35 AM »
Hi Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, it's the last week of our summer season, as well as being busy we're knackered too, running a B&B would be a lot easier without people staying in your house!

Some detail from a 'live' site would be great, if you let me know which area you're in I'll chase up the suppliers for a few details.

Hi Glort

As to building my own, I've got my hands on a Pelton wheel, ex USA, and once the aforementioned season slows down and I've caught up on my to do list I'll have a play.

We live in a fairly steep valley so the water pressure here is pretty good, so much so that we have a reducer on the inlet, my first effort will probably be driving a 12v vehicle alternator.

As for head, there's around 40 meters vertical to the barn, and I keep the cable run short, or if I remote the plant to the bottom of the property, 40 m away I'd get nearer 50m.

Cheers
Stef

Stef also check out this guy:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/latest/105877285/converted-washing-machine-provides-free-power-to-angry-ram-blogger?cid=facebook.post.105877285

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLaSf_YY7Xs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y_Na5L0qko

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieFZI4-6K8

You can follow his links and videos around

His approach is low tech but the principles are there and easily understood and could be re-engineered for reliability and ease of service

Cheers, Mike

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2018, 09:45:21 AM »
Hi Mike

Sorry for the slow reply, it's the last week of our summer season, as well as being busy we're knackered too, running a B&B would be a lot easier without people staying in your house!

Some detail from a 'live' site would be great, if you let me know which area you're in I'll chase up the suppliers for a few details.

Hi Glort

As to building my own, I've got my hands on a Pelton wheel, ex USA, and once the aforementioned season slows down and I've caught up on my to do list I'll have a play.

We live in a fairly steep valley so the water pressure here is pretty good, so much so that we have a reducer on the inlet, my first effort will probably be driving a 12v vehicle alternator.

As for head, there's around 40 meters vertical to the barn, and I keep the cable run short, or if I remote the plant to the bottom of the property, 40 m away I'd get nearer 50m.

Cheers
Stef

Stef, yes, I often think how good my work would be if not for the customers . . .

Excuse me if you have seen all this, but . . . .

Down here at the Bottom of the World we often have a different take on Intellectual Property - and thus it is with the Micro Hydro Power Spout chap . . .

See videos/links?  IMHO they are very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLzHr0Qntgo

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVR6UBCIRFs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z61EakCymsY

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2EtEVdAQUY

An once you get to looking he has a heap more: ones about the shaft, and bearing replacement . . .

Cheers

mikenash

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 04:37:48 AM »

Stef these are just F&P washing machine motors.  They are permanent magnet and very popular as wind and MH generators.
they would be easy for a man of your skills to set up. I have done a couple, one was a 7 phase and the other one was just a straight High voltage setup that I rectified and ran through a controller.  I have one the neighbour gave me the other week sitting up the back now.

There is lots of info on them on the net, just google F&P generator  and go from there.  You can re configure the winding's for different outputs and do a lot with them. I notice power spout sell all their parts from the housings to the motors and controllers even the pelton wheels separately so you could always just get the parts you need and do the rest yourself.  Pretty sure you wouldn't need any parts, these things would not be hard to put together and there is endless clever examples of what people have done on YT.

What sort of Flow and head do you have at the new place?   I would love to have somewhere to play around with MH.  With a constant water source it seems like the ultimate Alternative energy source to me.

Be interesting to see what you come up with for this.

If you look at these guys' website they're a bit smarter than that . . . .

They have a smart algorithm calculator, and if you enter your data into its fields - head, flow, conduit diameter, friction loss etc etc - they take those variables and match them with the one constant - nominal rotational speed - and "custom match" generated voltage etc to get the most out of what water you have . . . . or so they say

IMHO their blurb is worth a read

And the fact that they're not precious about their IP - everything's on YT - makes me feel confident they have at least serviceable quality in their gear

dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2018, 09:40:08 AM »
Casey,

Take a look at this......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv3ugqjSqfM

It depends on what you hope to achieve, but this guy has raided the 'come in handy' pile and knocked up something useful with little head and minimum cost. Gotta be a great start point.

Mike,

Thanks for that, that's whole lot of information, I'll be a while soaking it up (and all the other Youtube vids it leads one on to!)

As mentioned in previous posts, I'm not all about with power generation and even worse with electronics, however.....

I think the idea is to 'gang up' the coils in threes - and 'star' rather than 'delta'? to drop the voltage to something less dangerous and more usable. Presumably this give a corresponding increase in amp and the power output remains the same.

I'll be off down the local tip next week with a load of crap, so I'll chat up Patrice - the head tip rat, he's been on our side since my OH sorted out his accommodation in Cardiff for the last France / Wales match.

I've never seen a washing machine with a smart motor, maybe they're not a prolific in Europe but there's got to be one somewhere near here.

Cheers Stef
     
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glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2018, 10:58:33 AM »

Seems to me the calculators are pretty standard fare. I know nothing about MH but  I have seen vids and the people running turbines always have a selection of Nozzles for different times of year and water pressures to " gear " the turbine appropriately.

I get the impression Steph is going to be in the enviable position where there is so much water available, efficiency will not be a big concern. He'll probably be able to generate so much power he'll have a hard time putting the generation capacity to full use.

The PS company seem creditable enough and I am not knocking them but like a lot of things, they are clearly catering to the market that wants a turn key setup which is fair enough.
For the  DIY talented like Steph, there is little to nothing he could not do himself and have the ability to modify the setup to his unique conditions. I am sure he is the type that would get more satisfaction out of doing it himself that buying a pre built unit anyway.

I have seen plans for Arduino charge controllers for these things.  Again, I think steph Might be fine with simple charge controller which he might like to get pre built to save time .

glort

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2018, 11:28:25 AM »


Stef,
Power generation and outright electrics is not hard.  There is a lot of info on the net and you  will pick it up easily.

The idea with the re wiring is not about start or delta, you use which ever one siuts the motor you have, the voltage you want and the rotational speed that bests suits your conditions.
Most off Gridders have battery banks so they have storage for power at night and often run Multiple charging  inputs. Most will not add up to enough power to run appliance's directly but as load tends to come in peaks and valleys, the input accumulates in the low demand times and is thee when you want a lot of power.

You could run one of these Motors direct in high voltage.  Depending on the motor used they will do a KW without too much fuss.  The problem becomes in regulating them and conditioning the power.  To do that you better be another Bruce with your knowledge and understanding of electronics or have a LOT of cash to buy commercial products.
Easy way out, Charger, Battery bank, Inverter.

There is a growing movement I am seeing in the off gridders to go to smaller battery banks now.  If you have say 5 Kw of solar,  You could probably  depending on your location and time of year, run a 2 Kw ( or better) load all day and still have enough to charge the battery bank from what you used last night.  If you are cooking on a gas or wood stove and using solar for heating your water, You could have very low Night loads.  In your case if you have 3 KW of MH running constantly, Your reserve needs to be very little in fact.

Re wiring the F&P motor allows you to match the output ( 24 or 48V) to the equipment you go with.  Electrical output is really a balancing act in this regard. High Volts straight out the motor or re wire it and get lower volts at higher amps.

I rewired one of these years ago for a mate to use as a wind Turbine.  Was for a 24V output which made it a 7 Phase alternator in effect.
Mate who worked in the Aerospace game Quickly designed up some blades and used them as a test for some carbon Fibre composites they were cooking up.  He later ran the design through the fancy computer at work and the blades were a very high efficiency design.  I don't think he ever went ahead with that project.  I'm going over tomorrow to show him how to cook wood fire Pizza in his new oven  so I'll ask.  Thing is while Fiddly, re wiring the alts isn't hard at all.

This sort of thing is great to learn on. I still enjoy it a lot.
I found my old board I made up for my early solar experimenting yesterday.  I love playing with wiring things up and setting up breakers and controllers and trying different things with it.  This would be a great way for you to learn as you go and make worthwhile power to offset or eliminate your home useage.  My suggestion would be if you are going to start with a car  alt, get a 24V one.  EVERYTHING worthwhile and practical in Low voltage is 24 or 48V so don't even bother with 12.  If you do you'll then be buying stuff again when you quickly hit the 12V limit.

There are a lot of controllers on Fleabay which are cheap and quite good. that said, there are a lot that are not so cheap and crap. Don't ask me how I know but when you get to that stage I can point you in the direction of some of the better bang for you Franc... or Euro.
Also if you run any Pipe, make it 100mm or better. that way you are setting up to get real practical power in the future.

I sure would love to be able to play with this myself.  I think it's the ultimate in DIY power.


dieselspanner

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Re: Micro power gen
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2018, 11:02:43 AM »
Hi Glort

You're on the nail with the route I fancy taking, Charger, Battery, Inverter, you missed the last step - Lister!

I've had shiploads - pun intended! of experience with 12 volt boat stuff and know that most of the kit I (eventually!) plan on using is readily available, here's how I see it........

The barn has potable mains water, big step forward, it's the one thing that's bloody hard to make!

The nearest mains electric is 250m and 8000 away, for that sort of budget I can do a lot of playing.

I intend live more in the style of Bob (Ajaffa) and Starfire than feeding power hungry aircon and so on, as it will be a summer residence, at least for the start. so I'll fancy splitting the 12v system into 3.

300 amp hr battery for kitchen and hair dryer duty, with a 5000 w inverter, 150 ah battery for the 12v led lights and 150 ah battery for the 'media', tv, radio, internet ect. Both the small banks to have their own, smaller inverters.

The charging I'm happy to split, 8/12 hrs in the daytime for the kitchen, lights 6 / 8 hours or so in the evening, the rest to the media in the dark hours. all timer controlled to allow for balancing the charging time and add / subtract batteries as 'real time' usage dictates.

Anything left and it can go to hot water preheat.

When SHMBO dictates the need for 220v ac Lister should cover the washing machine, dishwasher,ect. and allow for power in the workshop. any left over 'Lister Power' to the battery banks and / or hot water preheat.

I've got a decent supply of WVO as well, having read most of your posts on the subject I never turn it down and ahve quite stash now, I'm storing more than my old tractor and Landrover are burning!

Wood burning stove, with back boiler, for cooking, domestic hot water, the rest to under floor heating, spring and autumn (we've good good quality beech for fuel up to the eyeballs) propane cooker and 'fridge freezer.

Having done the calc's to the best of my abillty I reckon 500w 24/7 is just about doable, 750 gives a little margin and 1000 will be Rolls Royce, should I be wrong I'll start the Lister early.

As it's all going to be modular any errors, increase or breakdowns can be covered from another part of the system, also, as you suggested I'm going to go with a large pipe to start with, which will help keep the pressure up at the the hydro plant and allow for more generation to be added without extra plumbing.

All I have to do is buy it, put in a road, re roof it, put in some windows and a concrete floor ans before I fit out the internals first!!

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.