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Author Topic: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?  (Read 575 times)

32 coupe

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Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« on: August 11, 2018, 07:30:17 PM »
As some of you know I have had a problem with the engine pulling a load.
Anything over about 1kw and it would just fall flat.
After playing with about a dozen springs and sending the cam to Butch for
a rebuild with new weights and a new lobe I still could not get it to work.

When I got the "new" cam installed I, of course, set the valves but not the injection
timing. Today I set the timing (it was off a few degrees) and re adjusted the valves.
I saw a slight difference in exhaust temps so I did a fine adjustment on the linkage
and got the exhaust temps nearly perfect.

Off to pull a load.....no help......

I have often had the seals on the crank at the bearing housings squeel a little. I put a drop
of oil on them and that will stop. I believe it is because I run the crankcase vent to the intake
manifold instead of the "spring valve" the engine is shipped with.

Any way.....I noticed a very slight squeel while running. Ever so slight......
When running I watch my "kill a watt" and don't check rpms......

Today during testing I installed 1 of the 2 belts I run on this machine....

I thought I should install the other belt to see if the noise would go away......
Well, well, well......the slight noise did go away......
The engine will now pull a 5kw load with about a 1.2hz drop from no load to loaded.

I know the cam change was not a mistake because when I ran it before I always ran 2 belts.

So it looks like I am getting very close. After I got the belts on I took off the 3 springs I had on the
govenor and installed just 1. It is close but not as good as with the cobbled 3 springs in place
so it will take a little more work in that area.

I had to stop today because it is starting to rain and I run it outside but I know I am getting close !

Thanks for everyone's input. I couldn't ask for a more knowledgeable bunch of guys !!

« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:34:03 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
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LowGear

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2018, 11:15:37 PM »
What's it do when you de-restrict the intake?  No hose or adapters?  Couldn't hurt for a few minutes could it?
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mikenash

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2018, 03:16:54 AM »
Loose or badly-tensioned belts will lose you power - or the ability to transmit power in all sorts of odd ways that aren't always obvious

If you have two belts running like that you really need to have a "matched" pair (two belys cut from the same "slice" of belting, otherwise, if one is a little tighter than the other, you are effectively just driving with one when the load comes on

Also, and excuse me if this is a stupid suggestion, but are you sure the belt groove machined in the flywheel or on the driven pulley is the correct groove for the belt you are using?

That 'squeal" or "chirp" is a classic symptom of a loose belt initially slipping when load is applied

It may be, also, that if you have been running it with just one belt - than that one belt may be stretched/worn past the point where it is a good "match" for the other belt and - although you may not want to do so - the right thing to do might be to replace both with a "matched" pair

Some of the engineers here with better drive skills than me will chime in here . . .

32 coupe

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2018, 04:20:12 PM »

I think they are called "common back" belts.....

I am runing a new "b belt" pulley on the gen head and running the belts on the flywheel face.
I questioned this method but I see several done in this fashion with success.

I played with it a little yesterday and after a belt adjustment and playing with 2 springs on the
gov I get about a 2.5 hz loss between 0 load and 5kw.  I would like to get it closer and will play
with it more in the future.

I adjusted the valves on the engine per Butch's method and it does seem to run a little better ?



In answer to the other question : The picture is from the coolong side....intake and exhaust are stock.


Gary

Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

glort

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 12:29:13 AM »

I'm running a B belt on an A belt Pulley on my little tractor atm.
No slippage there, thing bites PLENTY hard.  If it were the other way, A belt on B pulley, I think it  would not do well at all.

Never Tried the Vbelt on a flat Pulley but the Flywheel in a lister is so big you could probably run rope and get enough friction on that side.

Belts I use on my roid are MicroV's.  I get them Off Holden Commodore V6 Engines which are popular here. In the states they are the Buick 3.8 which are in a lot of FWD cars I believe.  They are PLENTY  long to go round a flywheel and drive a load at a reasonable distance from the engine.  I have 2 alternators on a bracket mounted to the engine up near the head with a tensioner in between.


32 coupe

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2018, 01:07:14 AM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 01:11:19 AM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

mikenash

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2018, 03:48:49 AM »

I think they are called "common back" belts.....

I am runing a new "b belt" pulley on the gen head and running the belts on the flywheel face.
I questioned this method but I see several done in this fashion with success.

I played with it a little yesterday and after a belt adjustment and playing with 2 springs on the
gov I get about a 2.5 hz loss between 0 load and 5kw.  I would like to get it closer and will play
with it more in the future.

I adjusted the valves on the engine per Butch's method and it does seem to run a little better ?



In answer to the other question : The picture is from the coolong side....intake and exhaust are stock.


Gary

My apologies - I hadn't taken from the photos that the B-belts ran on top of the big drive pulley - I had assumed there were grooves machined (hence my comment on groove and belt profile compatability

There will be other with direct experience of this method - and they will be better-informed than I am

However - just from an engineering POV I would guess the drive contact area provided by a flat-on-the-surface approach would be maybe 1/3 of that provided by belts running in suitable grooves?

Also, since the grooves have tapered walls and the belts have tapered sides, when the "load comes on" the belts will pull into the grooves - if you watch videos of loads being applied in hundred-horsepower applications and the like you will see a surprising slackening of the belts on the non-drive side (enough for them almost to "flap" sometimes) - and, obviously, this is single-digit HP application here, but I suspect the principle will be similar?

It may be there is a limit to the response you can get from what might be a fairly casual belt set-up if you have inherited it?

That "chirp"  and the difference in response between one belt and two are clues - and to me they suggest you're not getting power because you're not getting drive?  Maybe?

A transmission company person would be able to advise . . .

If it was a factory application I was responsible for I would be looking at:

Belt condition

Belt tension (try it tighter than you think is good, and see what happens, maybe?)  Also, there will be deflection charts online to allow you to gauge correct tension for given belt types between given centres

Belt match across the two of them

Consider using "belt grip" aerosol to have a play and learn something?

Maybe have a good look at the faces of the grooves in the driven pulley for wear or grooving?  "Drive" depends on the ability of the belt and groove surfaces to match nicely

Just some thoughts . . .,

Cheers

BruceM

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2018, 04:07:51 AM »
I tried a single B belt on a non-grooved flywheel for my neighbor's DES 8/1 conversion to propane/spark.  This driving an ST-3 with a B pulley.  It works fine, and requires much less tension than my Listeroid 6/1 with microgroove belt.  In either case, slippage on the huge Lister flywheels is absolutely not a problem. The B section belt has plenty of flat surface on the inside, unlike A belts.

Having done it both ways, I go with the cheaper, which tends to be B belts and pulleys here, but either works fine and I'd not turn down a microgroove pulley/belt bargain.  I like the lower tension required on the B belts, and think it may improve bearing life. 






mikenash

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2018, 05:12:05 AM »


Cool

I'll watch with interest to see how it all turns out

Looking at the side-loads on bearings from that drive, I ended up building a stub-shaft with a couple of bearings and a coupling to the generator head for that very reason, as we have discussed previously

glort

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2018, 09:35:27 AM »


Power transmission is a very complex area.  Despite all the charts and calculations, the take away I got with belt tension is they only need to be tight enough not to slip.  If you have them like a piano string, you need more belts.  If they handle the load and don't flap excessively, they are tight enough.
Micro's are far more efficient at transmitting power but the pulleys especially tend to be more exy.  I like the fact they can be run with a lot less tension and with a spring loaded tensioner on the back to keep them adjusted at all times.

 In industry they tend to favour multiple belts at lower tension to avoid the side load issues on the driven machinery and also because the belts are under less stress and last longer/ fail less often.

If one looks at the contact area any belt would have even on one side on a lister flywheel and compare that to the area in contact with a 4-6" pulley,  the flywheel is still going to have loads more contact area so no surprise to me it works.

One thing that does amaze me with belts is these guys that put 4-6 Mega amp alternators on their cars for high power stereos and drive them with one single serpentine.  I was talking to a guy once at a show that was driving a stack of alternators and he was complaining the belt broke frequently. I did a quick mental calc and worked out at full output the alternators he had would impose over 50 HP load which was incredible in itself. Car electrical system could power a house! I pointed out that every pulley he drove with the corresponding idler reduced the load rating of the belt and the belt he was using which was a standard PK series was not even rated for the load he was putting on it in a 1:1 setup. Spending thousands on alternators to drive a noise make worth a fortune more was not a problem. Spending money to drive the things properly and reliably was out of the question apparently!   ::)

The amazing thing was not that he went through belts but the fact they did not snap immediately..... and the stereo vibrations shaking the thing hadn't broken every spot weld on the vehicle. 

ajaffa1

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2018, 12:23:23 PM »
I had an MGB GT many years ago, I fitted a very expensive stereo system to it. Surround sound system rated at 250 watts RMS per channel. On the motorway I could slow the car down by turning up the stereo. Never had a problem with alternator belts but had no end of flat batteries! :laugh:

Bob

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Re: Ashwamegh 25/2 :ever feel stupid ?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2018, 02:36:18 PM »

I said something along those lines to the guy I was talking to.
I asked him when he went down a hill, did he just turn the stereo up to slow the thing down instead of using the brakes?

One of my early cars I used to turn the AC on going down long hills.  Those Old AC systems with the big old York compressors took a LOT of power out the engine.

I also asked him if he could still maintain full highway speeds up the Hills if he had the thing cranked?  He said he could IF he turned some of the Subs off.
These (not so) kids are going to be deaf as posts time the hit 50 Yo.