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Author Topic: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2  (Read 89253 times)

sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2018, 09:46:18 PM »
Hi JD

The cart, as has been said, is temporary to walk from side to side. Of course when it starts to work it has to have better stability and the platters have to be bigger.

Calm down that "Rome and Pavia were not made on the same day."

BR
VP

PS: That worn-out valve is worrying me ... a lot.
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

ajaffa1

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2018, 11:37:23 PM »
Hi Pedrosa, opinion and advice:

Pistons: measure the diameter of the pistons, top and bottom, how much play is there in the gudgeon pins, what is the size of the piston ring slots?  If the pistons are significantly worn they will need replacing. If there is only minor wear then a set of new piston rings should be adequate. If you are concerned about the pitting in the top of the pistons a very thin skim on a lathe would probably be OK provided you allow for this when setting the bump clearance.

Valves: put the valves back in the head, how much play is there in the valve guides? Now put a straight edge across the face of the cylinder head and measure how deep into the head the face of the valves are. The correct depth is between 0.055 inch (min) & 0.100 inch (max)
If there is significant wear in the valve stems and guides they will need replacing. If the face of the valves is more than 0.100 inch below the surface then the head will need to have new seats fitted.

Cylinder: if there is pitting or significant wear then you will need to have a sleeve fitted and honed. Fitting new piston rings in worn bores is a bad idea as there is often a lip worn in the cylinder at the top. Your new top ring will hit this and very quickly fail. Some replacement ring sets come with a stepped top ring to allow for this but I doubt they are available for an original CS.

I am waiting for our local machinist to return from holiday, he is going to sleeve my cylinder and fit new seats to the head.

Good luck with the kart, I have faith in Pedrosa not in God, experience has taught me that prayer has no impact on the performance of anything mechanical!

Bob


38ac

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #92 on: October 22, 2018, 02:13:29 PM »
Have seen that wear and damage at the top of the piston and above the top ring on many occasions and that would not cause me to replace them. The important things are skirt condition and wear, pin hole wear, top ring land wear (common)  and cracks(uncommon) and none of that can the determined from pictures.

Pictures can deceive but in the last picture the top valve face certainly looks to be worn beyond grinding and need to be replaced. The bottom one might clean up and still have a good margin left on it.  Proper attention to guide wear is important as is the valve depth once a seat is established. The entire procedure is kinda lengthy to type up step by step but suffice it to say that when I have seen valves in that condition in my shop they are accompanied by worn stems and guides and the seats are in need of serious attention.   

« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:18:02 PM by 38ac »
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sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #93 on: October 22, 2018, 02:42:30 PM »
Hi folks

I'll add some more pictures to update info.
 
38ac:
skirt condition and wear seems to be ok (but I will still see with "the magnifying glass");

pin hole wear I think its ok because I needed to hit to make it slide;

top ring land wear (common)  - I'll measure the clearance;

and crancks still in shed...

Possibly (most certainly) I have to put a new seat in the valve, and a new valve;

All guides seems to be in good shape... but

Cheers.
Pedrosa
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 01:10:59 AM by sirpedrosa »
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2018, 12:49:47 AM »
Greetings

I made the measurements of the valves in the heads with the pachymeter, and I obtained:
Valve depth: Lin - 2.8mm (bad), Lex - 1.8mm; Rin 1.8mm, Rex 2.35mm;
Stems: Lin - 10.95mm, Lex - 10.95mm; Rin 10,95mm, Rex - 10,95mm;
Guides: Lin - 11.15mm, Lex - 11.15mm; Rin 11,15mm, Rex - 11.20mm.

Please state what is relevant to these measures.

Note that the measurements were made without springs, however I was careful to make the seating of the valves with whiteboard pen.

Cheers.
VP
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 01:13:15 AM by sirpedrosa »
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

38ac

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2018, 12:56:53 PM »
I work in the world of inches, feet, and miles didnt do the conversions because I am lazy.   I shoot for .002" clearance on the intake stems and .004" on the exhaust when renewing ahead.  Lister spec allows for .010" wear which I think is quite excessive.

A link link to specs on this site http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7359.30 

It helps to know that in the English engineering world you will find that the great bulk of the time that the I.D.  dimension will be to size and the clearance will be machined into the O.D. part.  Example A CS engine has a 2" crankshaft at the mains. The I.D. of a new shell will measure very close to 2.000" while the new crankshaft spec  is also 2.000" with a machining limit of -.002" - .0025"
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sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2018, 03:34:24 PM »
Hi 38ac

I understand that laziness. You don' got that need as I am.

Now I have to think about the imperial measures (and for a simple calculation just think that 0.100" = 2.54mm, and so on).

We still use BSP for tubing and tapering. BSW and BSF only in special cases, as in this case.

I do not need to have my12/2 working like a Swiss watch, but at least work well. The lathe service is quite expensive, but not only, allied to this is needed new valves and guides, and may still need new rings ... or even reboring (this bill will be very heavy ...). Not to mention parts have to be ordered from UK, or somewhere else.

"Money is expensive and often lacking!"

Cheers.
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

dieselspanner

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2018, 06:59:10 PM »
Hi VP

Having worked in both imperial and metric for years I can  switch between the two with little trouble, the only thing my head won't go around is fuel consumption for my car, it has to be in miles per gallon. Liters per 100 kilometers I can't envisage.

Down at engineering levels 40 thou (0.04") is a millimeter and easy to remember.

OK, it's 0.0393700787402 if you want to be picky!

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #98 on: October 23, 2018, 11:33:53 PM »
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

dieselspanner

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #99 on: October 24, 2018, 08:12:58 AM »
Hi Pedrosa

It's not that I can't find the answer on the web, but that it holds no 'real world' relevance in my head!

When I moved to France I found it weird that they use the 24 hour clock in normal conversation, ( speak and can count enough in French to understand it!) Having done the best part of 14 years in the military and Lord knows how long at sea I'm quite happy with the format, but I still don't like using it in general conversation, no idea why.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #100 on: October 24, 2018, 12:05:41 PM »
HI DS

Thats because you don't realy need it, and thats great. And not needing makes us much happier, don't you agree?

BR
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

guest23837

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2018, 12:06:10 PM »
Hi VP

Having worked in both imperial and metric for years I can  switch between the two with little trouble, the only thing my head won't go around is fuel consumption for my car, it has to be in miles per gallon. Liters per 100 kilometers I can't envisage.

Down at engineering levels 40 thou (0.04") is a millimeter and easy to remember.

OK, it's 0.0393700787402 if you want to be picky!

Cheers
Stef

It's interesting talking to a "modern" mechanic he uses ½" drive ratchet on a 13mm socket but he would have no idea what  a ½" spanner fits or looks like. The only people in Ireland using imperial spanners are guys repairing lawnmowers or restoring vintage cars  and not all of them use imperial either. I have imperial sockets and spanners and when using them you remember how few tools older machines needed. My car, a Seat, uses 16 mm spanners on M12 bolts and 18 mm spanners on M14. I wonder how much metal they save making a nut or bolt head that little bit smaller. My torque wrench is in ft lbs I tried to explain to a friend what ft lb means but I started losing the will to live.

ajaffa1

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #102 on: October 24, 2018, 12:26:57 PM »
Hey Johndoh, I worked as a machinist during the transition from imperial to metric in the UK. What a cluster f*ck. The whole purpose of the exercise was to move everything to a decimal based measurement system that was easy for computers to understand and control. Thousands of very skilled men lost their jobs to machines because of this, apprenticeships went out the window and the government were able to shut down all the training facilities. Give me feet and inches anytime, I can do the math in my head. Good on the USA for sticking with what was a much better system.

Here in Australia I can still buy imperial thread nuts and bolts, problem is they are made in China out of metric hexagonal bar! So a 5/16 bolt might have a 12mm head, f*cking madness!

Bob

sirpedrosa

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2018, 01:30:58 PM »
Hi Bob

It's to have an imperial bolt but with a metric head. The Chinese make whatever product you want - as long as it's sold ...

I printed this chart (https://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/science/wrench-conversion.htm), and pined it in my white board. It works great.

Cheers
VP
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 02:03:48 PM by sirpedrosa »
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

guest23837

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Re: Resurrection of a Lister 12/2
« Reply #104 on: October 24, 2018, 04:28:54 PM »
An imperial headed bolt with a metric thread and vice versa is plain stupid. People are stupid enough without adding to their store of things they dont understand. My local hardware shop still sells loose nuts and bolts. They have a metal ruler on the counter with holes in it for various sizes of bolts. Buy a few bolts and they stick one into a hole until it fits, then they measure it. I can just pick out the bolts I want without thinking about it. Lucky for these morons they don't sell BSF or whitworth or UNF etc. Pipe thread is still imperial sized here it's a good idea to avoid any salesman or salesperson under 60 if you need pipe fittings