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Author Topic: More engine questions  (Read 1156 times)

Johndoh

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More engine questions
« on: July 16, 2018, 11:26:06 AM »
I have been looking at old listers again. One is an LD1 complete engine but seized from being outside, I think it would be an easy fixer upper. The other is a Lister DK with no spark and some parts missing. Both are cheap (sub 200) which one would you guys go for? The DK is paraffin and paraffin is very expensive here and I doubt heating oil is the same, open to correction there. Could she run on petrol only? LD1 is slow low powered and extremely heavy for a middle aged man with a bad back to be moving around. All suggestions/ideas welcome! Thanks
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38ac

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 12:11:41 PM »
I have both an LD and D and in moving them around I dont think the weight difference would affect my decision to buy one or the other. Both are very heavy for their size.  I have no experience with the DK but some low grade fuel engines run fine on gasoline once warmed up, some not, all must start on gasoline.  We have a coupe tractors that were designed for kerosene but it is expensive here also. We blend up our own using 2/3 low grade gasoline and 1/3 diesel.  It isn't kerosene but works well enough fopr our purposes.
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Johndoh

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 01:00:15 PM »
Thanks mate I think I read somewhere that those little engines were supposed to run on TVO but again thats impossible to get. The LD1 is slightly more appealing just because things like the fuel filter housing and air filter come with it and it has a starting handle too, a surprisingly expensive item in Ireland. Down side is it was in a concrete mixer.
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38ac

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 01:42:28 PM »
I believe that TVO is closer to what was called "distillate" in the states? Slightly heavier than kerosene, actually the regular gasoline/ diesel mixture I use  is closer to TVO,, or so I have been told.
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Johndoh

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 02:20:16 PM »
I would assume the engine would run fine on petrol only? Would it overheat or run hot? Was the dual fuel simply an economy measure? Sorry for the questions I just want a little foreknowledge before buying. Any views on the LD?
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38ac

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 04:02:41 PM »
It depends on the manifolding. All low grade fuel engines heat the intake to help keep the fuel vaporized and as I said I am not familiar with the DK.  My 1075 Crossley has a heat adjustment so the preheat can be effectively shut off thus it runs fine on gasoline. My old Allis Chalmers tractor will run fine on gasoline until the manifolds get hot and then it runs like crap.

I wouldnt pay much for an LD that needed any work as parts are extremely expensive. Check with Sleeman on the price of a cylinder barrel and a joint set, warning! brace yourself!
 I resurrected one, actually a close relative model SL and I wont do it again!! We can buy  clunker LDs  for less money than that and they are much less commonly found on this side of the pond.
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Johndoh

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 05:47:30 PM »
I offered 50 he dropped to 100. New barrel and piston 186.00 ouch!
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glort

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 01:55:48 AM »

Most kero engines will run fine on petrol. The reason they were Kero engines was because kero was cheaper than petrol.  ( Try Buying Kero Now!!)
They were built as low compression engines to handle the Kero. Petrol is fine on low comp and I don't see the heat being an issue as the same HP output will produce the same heat no matter what the latent energy in the fuel.

I'm not sure what blending Diesel into petrol would do to help in this case.  The engines for kero are low Comp and diesel is a High comp fuel so to my thinking you would be going the wrong way. Same with veg oil. Harder to light off still. I mix petrol with veg to make the veg easier to light.

Maybe if the engine would not run well on petrol for the vaporising effect ( which I would tend to think would be to do with the fuel boiling in the carb because in the manifold should  not be a problem after the fuel has been metered)  You may be able if the manifold is removable to put in a gasket you cut which would stop a good amount of the heat transfer.  Other thing would be as the LD1 is an aircooled motor, just duct some cooling air to the carb/ manifold area and bring the temp down that way.

It may also be helpful to change the timing on the engine. It would seem to me Kero and petrol would have Very different ignition timings being one is an oil and the other a vapour fuel.

I have a Twin Cyl Aircooled lister that's been to the bottom of the river you can have for nothing.  Bottom end is OK, Very little rust being only some surface deposits from moisture it seems but the top end I think is pretty locked up.
I might put it on gum tree and see if anyone wants it or it will be going to the scrap.

38ac

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 02:33:50 AM »
 Latent energy has nothing to do with it however if you think diesel is a high compression fuel for spark ignition engines dump some in your gas engined car or lawn mower and let us know how it works out for you., like we already don't know, lol. Compression ignition is not to be interlinked with spark ignition for sake of discussion or argument. It's two different things period. The diesel, fuel added to gasoline both lowers the octane and lowers the volatility of the fuel.  Both being advantageous in engines with low compression (and this lower octane needs) and hot manifolds.,  As I said, some low grade fuel engines will run decently on gas, some will not, that's not theory, it is known fact.

Corrected all the typos, sorry. Happens every time I post from my cell phone
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 12:00:49 PM by 38ac »
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Johndoh

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 07:59:55 AM »
Glort the postage from Australia to Ireland would be a bit expensive for an engine! I have an SL1 engine parts are extremely expensive and it's taking time and money to get it sorted, it's supposed to be a 12v generator eventually  but the prices of spares makes it a long term if ever project.
I'm now going to use some profane language " Briggs and Stratton". I spotted a 5HP side valve petrol generator on Gumtree Northern Ireland for silly money, 50.  Its running but not making power. It had a capacitor alternator. I have never seen a Briggs engine connected to a cheap Chinese alternator so I think this would be a good buy. Im a bit of a fan of Briggs side valves.

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glort

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 08:33:24 AM »
I have never seen a Briggs engine connected to a cheap Chinese alternator so I think this would be a good buy. Im a bit of a fan of Briggs side valves.

Well, I spose we all have our faults and peculiarities :-\!       :laugh:

Here I have ONLY seen briggs coupled to cheap crappy alternators.  Been given a few now but between the rubbish engines and the no name alts, despite efforts and inquiry, all they have been good for is scrap.

I got a 8 Hp Briggs on a Tiller last year. To my amazement the thing started and ran well.... for about 2 hours.  Thing then lost power and the exhaust ran glowing red hot. Finally wouldn't run at all. Seems the thing has spun the flywheel on the crank.  Bought a puller and the thing is so tight I can't get it off. Been meaning to take it to the  engine shop to get the wheel removed and lapped in again but the tiller is built like a tank so it won't be easy getting it in the ute or a trailer.  Have to do it though. Need a tiller and to know wether to scrap this one of it's worth fixing.
 Maybe I could convert it to a horozontal shaft diesel?

I'm sure that would be cheap and straightforward.... NOT!

Other than that I hate briggs with a passion.  They are so cheaply made it's ridiculous. If it's not the carbs acting up it's the ignitions.  What idiot thought to have an aluminium bore in an engine running steel piston rings?  Seems like a real good idea for longevity.
I have used probably a dozen Chinese Knockoff engines now between my fathers stuff and Mine over the last 5 years and yet to have a single problem with any of them.

I hear briggs have lifted their game a lot on some series to match Honda. Here Briggs bought out the Home grown Mower company but fits Honda motors, their competitor's engines, to their own product. 
That tells me something !

To me, engines are the cheaper and easier thing to come by than Alts.
have to seriously look at importing a Gen head soon I think.

Johndoh

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2018, 08:42:07 AM »
Nothing like a good laugh with your 2nd coffee Glort!

To be fair the older Briggs engines are IMO very good. My lawnmower is 30 years old Briggs 5hp side valve starts every time. It need valve stem oil seals which it will never get so it burns a little oil. I see people selling much more modern mowers all the time they are modern OHV engines with problems. OK the problems are usually a bunged up carburettor or a failed coil but the mowers themselves are made out of compressed tinfoil and and are usually rusted and horrible.

This generator engine is a horizontal shaft version of the mower engine so Im confident it will be ok
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 08:58:43 AM by Johndoh »
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mikenash

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 09:33:37 AM »
Here you are John

I bought this little fellow just for the head a month ago - $NZ290 (later onsold the motor only for $280 but that's another story

Electric start Briggs & Stratton, Maybe 15HP.  Started and ran well.  Probably 20 or 30 years old

Apart from the antique design (updraft carb, flathead etc) probably nothing wrong with these old things

Cheers

ajaffa1

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 09:37:34 AM »
I`m with Glort on this one, love Honda engines even some Honda clones are OK. Absolutely hate Briggs engines, I have two and I spend more time fixing them than using them. I think the problem is that in an effort to compete with the Chinese they have lowered quality to the point that they will crap out one day after the warranty expires. They just can`t cope with the harsh Australian climate and dust. Earlier versions are much more robust with metal carburetors rather than the cheap plastic crap they now come with.

The OHV offerings are particularly bad and prone to cylinder head gasket failure due to them reducing the amount of metal in the castings to less than is required for reliability. Approximately six milometers between the cylinder and the chamber that the push rods operate in. Gasket fails pressurizing the sump and vents hot oil everywhere. I`ve been burned by it a couple of times, surprised they haven`t been sued. Perhaps they have and I never heard about it.

Glort if you are still looking to import an alternator let me know as I also want one.

Bob

glort

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Re: More engine questions
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 10:23:30 AM »

I don't know a lot about the series of Briggs engines as I avoid them but they seem to have had a time(s) when they were good and then when they were Rubbish.

I started a part time lawn mowing run around 30 years ago. Started out with old Victa's I rebuilt. Partner was always Killing them. They would stop and when I got them home and looked at them they were OK.  I later found out he had lived in units all his life and had never mowed a lawn till we started out together.  Had NO mechanical knowledge or Sympathy.

We made Money so I went and Bought 2 Brand new Mowers, Both had the Briggs Industrial Series cast iron bores.  They seemed good for a while but one day the crank on the big 5Hp Just snapped. Definately didn't hit anything, we'd been mowing that lawn a long time but the grass was thick and heavy. Briggs wouldn't warrant it because they said if we didn't hit something that time, we would have before which weakened/ Cracked the shaft. That was BS as we only used the " good" mowers on the good jobs and the Victas got used on all the Cleanup  jobs where we didn't know what was in the grass.

Of course a new Crank for a Briggs was about the same price for a forged Crank for a 400 Chev so that was the end of that engine with about 50 hours on it.
The 4 HP went a fair while linger till it developed a miss and loss of power that I nor the mower shop could find.  The guy at the mower shop said I could have this other new engine that also wasn't running right and see if I could get the parts off it.  I pulled it down and found the problem.  There was so much casting flash in the inlet port you could not have fitted a pencil through the remaining hole.  Got a grinder, gave the thing a port job and that one ran well.  About 2 years and it was stuffed despite being well cared for with very short interval oil changes.

In between I had gone back to Victa 2 Strokes after buying my mates half of the business out and going full time.  I figured out the problem with the Victa's in the mean time. Worked out it was only ever Mates Mowers that stopped. I hadn't done anything to the one I used other than change air filter, not even the plug and it still ran like a ball tearer.
Mate would just hammer the things so hard, they would get so hard they would boil the fuel in the carbs.  that' was why once I got them home they would fire up and I couldn't find anything wrong.

I never had any trouble with the Victa's although the one I used played up one day. Brought it home thinking after near 3 years of hammering the poor thing it must be getting very worn.
Nope, still had hone marks in the bore, rings here barely touched, bearings fine. Culprit was the engine cover had rubbed through the HT lead and was shorting intermittently. Changed the HT lead for a car one which looked very hard core, Tied it out the way and put the thing back together with nothing more than new gaskets.  Ran perfect till I sold the thing with the business 2 years later.

I did get given a few mowers from clients that didn't want them anymore. All the briggs were stuffed. A common problem was the steel crank running in the aluminium casing with no bearings. The bearing area would wear to the point where you couldn't set the point gap because there was so much slop the points could be open or closed depending on which was the shaft was sitting in the now enlarged hole.  Bore wear was bad too with ally bores and steel rings.

As the guy in the Mower shop showed me, He could literally buy a set of pistons and rods for the Popular 6 Cyl Holden ( GM) engine  here than an OS piston and rings for a Briggs and then you had to have the thing bored and bearings fitted in the case as well.  Same price to buy a new engine.
All the contractors were using Honda's then and the Chinese engines were just coming onto the market. They were gaining acceptance but still seen by those who never tried them as Chinese Crap.  Bloke in the mower shop was more open minded and said from what he saw, they were as good and slightly better than the hondas they were Copying in some places.  They weren't available as separate engines then but some guys bought them  and found the mower bases fell apart but they then put the engines on Honda Chassis and they were very good. When they did need parts, Honda was interchangeable.

I know a lot of people swear by briggs but I guess it depends on which ones you got and what you did with them.  Some people brag they last for decades but if you look at their use, they might put 5-10 hours on them a year. Other  are used 100's of hours a year and last decades as well so maybe the luck of the draw as well.

For the price and quality I have seen,  I would MUCH rather buy a chinese Cheapie for $150 and take my chances.  Briggs are about double that here and Honda about 5-600.
The Honda's as good as they are are not 4 times better than the chinese engines nor will last 4 times longer so for mine, I'd rather get the cheaper engine even if I do have to replace it. In reality, whatever it's attached to will probably be pretty sad by the time the cheapie wears out so i'd likley just replace the whole machine.  They are only getting cheaper from what I'm seeing.

I just found an old Honda tiller on fleabay. Has a horozontal shaft engine that's said not to be running so would be a good candidate for a Diesel replacement.  Might find a use for that last Diesel yet.  :0)

I sure wish they would make Vertical shaft Diesels in the 5 Hp range. All I have seen is about 10 in a Hatz and 20 in a china.