Author Topic: Fired up the old Lister today...  (Read 1038 times)

AdeV

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Fired up the old Lister today...
« on: June 24, 2018, 11:00:15 PM »
...for the first time in a couple of years at least. Despite being sat all this time, she fired right up & settled to a nice steady 600rpm-ish. Well chuffed :)

A friend of mine is experimenting with what he calls "black diesel" - basically, waste motor oil, filtered to 1 micron, with petrol (gas) added to reduce the viscosity. We decided to try it in the Lister rather than his car, on the basis that if it didn't work, he wouldn't be stuck without a working car. Although the "fuel" was a little more visicous than regular diesel, the ole Lister took it in her stride; maybe a slightly bluer exhaust than usual, but it's hard to tell. Since we didn't have any "clean" diesel to switch over to, I've had to stop her with this dodgy "diesel substitute". Be interesting to see if she still starts next week...

If I get chance, I'll take some video/pix next time.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

EdDee

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 10:33:55 AM »
Hi Ade,

Take care! One thing I have noticed while playing with WMO is the amount of water that is sometimes held in suspension by the detergents in the motor oil.... It is not uncommon to have about 5 to 10% water content in this part of the world... Injector pump elements don't like sitting around in that cr@p and tend to corrode/get sticky quite easily...(not to mention PH which becomes interesting when water is added to the mix!)

Cheers
Ed
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LowGear

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2018, 11:06:18 AM »
There's just something special about a Lister looping along in the 600 RPM range that is wonderful.  Getting an old friend back on his feet is always a proud moment too.  Congratulations!

Damn; My Witte hasn't smoked, coughed or farted in four years.

When using vegetable oil I always throw in about 10% gasoline even though we never dip below 65 degrees F.  And I never run it thicker than 50% with diesel - either one.

You might pay attention to which way the exhaust is blowing as well.  The mixology of motor oil is just too far beyond my pay grade to mess with.  I guess I've buried too many people with COPD.





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glort

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2018, 12:40:51 PM »

When using vegetable oil I always throw in about 10% gasoline even though we never dip below 65 degrees F.  And I never run it thicker than 50% with diesel - either one.

The mixology of motor oil is just too far beyond my pay grade to mess with.  I guess I've buried too many people with COPD.

I'd suggest you might ( or might NOT ) want to look up what is in petrol and diesel if you  are afraid of what is in motor oil.
You are going to find there are a hell of a lot of nasties in them both. If you are happy burning those, it's pretty pointless worrying about whats in engine oil.

While I don't use engine oil myself too much because I'm a messy bastard and veg is easier to clean up when I slop it round,  I think it's laughable when people whinge about burning oil as fuel like it's some travesty against Humanity.
EVERY engine Burns oil.  Every damn vehicle on the road is burning it so it's not like the people burning it for fuel are releasing something that's not out there everywhere anyway.

Some of the newer engines have incredible oil consumption. Look up the service manuals for some of the BMW's.  Using 1L of oil per 1000 km IS in spec for some of their engines. To put that in context, if they burn a sump full of oil between changes, that's not something BMW  didn't design not to happen or means the engine is shot. It's right in design limits.
A mate has a 9 yo truck. Much the same. We laugh about the need to change oil in the thing when it's designed to burn an amount that makes changes redundant. You need to replenish the oil not change it.

If you look at the amount of engine oil burnt in engines every day, it would take all the listers on earth and then some running on oil for 10 years to come near what is used on the roads alone in one day.

Of course the main thing is, If you don't try smoking the exhaust Pipe or have the exhaust discharging into an enclosed space, the risk from anything you burn other than arsenic is probably less than driving down the highway for an hour behind other vehicles.

LowGear

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2018, 06:04:41 PM »
I believe I wrote that WMO chemistry is beyond my credentials or pay grade.

Revised this morning:

I had a revelation while pulling weeds this morning and it was inspired by one of ajaffa1's posts.

I have become somewhat of a bore on anti petroleum and coal energy production.  I apologize.  This is my favorite forum and I will be getting back to basics from now on no matter how much I'm baited (see, I'm the victim).  Thanks for your time and energy.

Aloha

« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 09:55:21 PM by LowGear »
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glort

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2018, 02:47:47 AM »
Revised this morning:

I had a revelation while pulling weeds this morning and it was inspired by one of ajaffa1's posts.

I have become somewhat of a bore on anti petroleum and coal energy production.  I apologize.  This is my favorite forum and I will be getting back to basics from now on no matter how much I'm baited (see, I'm the victim).  Thanks for your time and energy.

Aloha


Just to aid your failing memory, you have written that 3 times now. We get it. No need to post again.

AdeV

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 07:59:16 PM »
FWIW, I'm not too worried. She'll be getting a pint of real diesel back in her this weekend... My friend, who wanted to try the "black diesel" out, ended up throwing 25l in his car anyway (after he bought breakdown cover - I hadn't the heart to tell him they'd probably charge him an arm & a leg if he did break down & they discovered what fuel he was using...), and apparently it's going better than it's ever done! So there you go - real diesel, not as good as the dodgy stuff!
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

glort

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 02:15:35 AM »

As long as the vehicle is a mechanically injected type, the worst I can see happening it the thing will stop with a blocked filter.
With Veg, that can dislodge the left over deposits from Diesel that coat the tank and fuel lines etc and it clags everything.  I was changing filters every day in my merc initially. Pulled the tank and cleaned it and Filled the fuel lines with solvent and then blew out an amount of crap I would not have thought possible with compressed air.

I never did get round to ever putting the fuel tank back in the thing. Used to run it with 2-3 25L Drums in place and change the pickup when needed. 
had the thing 3.5 years with no gauge, no beeper and no light and never ran out. For a while there the Mrs was running out every fortnight in her car that had all those things.....  Till I pulled the sender, bent the hell out of it so it read empty when there was still 20L in the thing and never had another problem.

As long as whatever is properly cleaned ( filtered) and dried of any water, mechanical injected engines will run anything. I was reading the other night how they now Limit the OIL consumption of F1 cars because they were setting the engines yup to burn sump oil in order to get more power and fuel economy out of them.  They are fuel capacity limited but nothing said they couldn't have a 25L sump on them so thats what they did.  they cottoned onto it now so they can have any size sump but are only allowed a certain oil consumption.

I was watching a vid last night whee I guy who does these tests on what engines will run on has got a diesel and was amazed the thing ran on penetrating oil.  He asks for suggestions for vids and all these ignorant smartarses were saying run the thing on Lard.
Well, I had to disappoint them and say if the lard was heated to liqued, It would run on it well  and I had done that several times and diesels will run on any other non volatile liquid as well.  Lard is really good actually and what people used that started the whole veg oil thing.  Lard was more popular back then so the thing was to heat the tank  and when the fat was liquid, change over to that.

I just used to do it in summer where our  temps meant you may have to heat it a little to get it liquid like leave a drum in the sun ( black garbage bag over the top helped and from there the return temp of the fuel would keep it liquid as long as the vehicle was running. It was very good fuel and I believe had a slightly higher energy value than oil.

WMO filtered and blended will run every bit as good as normal diesel.

AdeV

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 07:07:43 PM »
Yep, it's an old mechanically injected engine. French too, so it should run well on garlic oil too  ;D

He bought a 1 micron filter bag & filtered his oil through that, shame he didn't properly clean out the receiving vessel.... had to filter it again to get the lumps out! But once done, although a bit gloopier than real diesel, it seems to work fine. I think he put 20% RUG in it to thin it out.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

glort

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 11:23:18 PM »

When I started out in alternative fuels, IE, veg oil, I used to run 20% ULP in my old Merc.
Had a few instances as we went further into the summer where I couldn't start the thing after a shutdown.  Traced it to 2 things, 1. Using that Rubbush E-10 fuel and 2. 20% being way too high anyway for the ambient temps.

The alcohol in the Ethanol laced Crap boiled at atound 70o where normal petrol is around 90-100. It makes a difference.  I didn't think it would in the qtys I was using it but I worked out it only took 1ml of the ethanol to boil to make 1L of gas.  That's a LOT of air in the system.
Going all the way back to a max of 5% in summer and only using real petrol solved the problem completely.

I have a rule of thumb of 15 % ULP. If it were snowing 20% might be OK but what's good for starting is not so great for power when Running.
In summer the fuel is thinner anyway and thin fuel is really another of the many alt fuel Misnomers anyway.
If the thing is a Peugoet/ Citroen, it has a VP  pump on it and will push about anything through.

I had a Peugot 405 I ran on veg.  Beautiful comfortable car.  Bought it for a song because the thing kept stalling all the time. Did it about 15 times on teh way home but wasn't hard to re start.  Tracked it down that night to a cracked fuel heater. They have this bit of plastic on the bottom of a stock screw on fuel filter designed to heat the fuel being a euro car.  The plastic Cracks and allows air in the system. The pump purges it but it will case a lack of fuel and stalling.

The fix was simple about 300MM of hose with the disposable inline filters I had been using and had good stock of anyway. Bypassed the fuel heater and that was it.
The trick to those things was remove the rear Muffler which was highly restrictive, turn up the smoke screw on the fuel pump and over ride the blow off valve on the turbo so it got full boost all the time.  transformed the things.  You could have the thing idling with the clutch out in 1st, tramp it and the tyres would just light up.  Hit 2nd and break traction again.
geez that thing was fun! Ultimate sleeper as well because very few of the things here and an unassuming little car and people freaked when the thing disappeared in a black cloud.

Was very economical as well. With the thing loaded to the gunwales with the crap of the whole family and 4 people on board, on a country trip where plenty of attention was made to haste and none to economy, it would get 6.5L /100Km.  Friend who had one thought I must have really been flogging it as on his own he used to travel interstate and average 5.5L/ 100Km.

The only had one fault though... They were French.
Always something going wrong.  Fix one thing and a week/ day later some other problem. Try to be clever and fix something before it was broken and the 3rd thing would go.  Thought I had a dud but talking to my mate revealed the same problems and frequency thereof.  Looking on the frog forum, just par for the course.  got a bit much after a while and eventually  the starter, water pump and belt tensioner all went which was major pain and easier to pull the engine to fix being an east west motor.

The thing got sold interstate to a particularly enthusiastic guy who didn't care about the engine but was very excited about the outstanding interior and body condition.  Had some shopping trolley rash but no rust holes so he thought that was a real standout.
He had the engine completely rebuilt and all the body work straightened and was happy as with it. Sued to send me an email an pics every month for a while.

Blending is best done to suit the weather. There is no one ratio suits all seasons.  Summer is good for 5%, winter up to 15% was my rule of thumb.
NEVER use that Ethanol laced crap. It really is good for nothing , not even parts cleaning. The booze will burn your skin.
I used to mix my blends according to the weather and forecast. One great think with the merc was having the drums for fuel tanks I could change the blend at any time.  Have a higher blend and it turns out warm, just pull that tank out and put in a lower mix or top that one off with more oil and vice versa.

I would buy another merc if I could find one and probably pull the tank and do it the same way. Seemed dodgy at first but proved to be the way to go pretty quick.

AdeV

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2018, 08:50:53 PM »
What Merc was it? My mate's after an estate, and an old Merc might just be the answer. He'll be even happier if he can just dump WMO in the tank without much petrol in it... petrol's expensive here.

We rarely have problems with high temperatures. Right now we're getting a right heat wave - 30 degrees C, that's bloody hot for Northern England. You can tell it's hot down South too, because it's in all the newspapers...

9pm and it's still mid 20s, there'll be a lot of uncomfortable people tonight. Me, I can sleep in anything now...
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

glort

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2018, 01:02:30 AM »

My Merc was the same as Bruces, W123 with the OM617 engine.
If you friend gets one, make sure it's the Turbo. The NA's are pretty pathetic.  If he can find the 4 Valve om 606, then he will be laughing. Those things can be turned up on the pump and smoke the tyres all day long.  Put a bigger turbo and go harder still without ever cracking the engine.
They didn't bring them out here which is Typical.

My current car is a Nissan patrol with the 4.2 Engine.  Totally stock except for a different OEM fuel filter.  Starts on veg in the middle of winter no problems. Best car I have had for Veg despite the famed Mercs. Turn the pump up on that and they go hard and put a bit of 50% water meth in and they are a lot of fun.

Heat wave???  30 ?????  That's just starting to get to t shirt weather!
30 Is a nice sunny day where you can go out and work in the yard while the weather is still nice and mild!  Hottest days last summer here were 46o C. I think there were 6 days like that all up.  That does feel a might warm. Get 5 days above 40 on the trot and insulation becomes useless as everything just heat soaks. That gets a bit much when there is no relief.

We had MANY days here last year where it was just under 40 at Midnight and never got below 34 all night.  Being inland and not quite to the mountains it's an average of 7o  Colder in winter and the same hotter in summer. Bit of a drawback location wise but we still like it.

we have been getting frosts here that take the bird bath till 10 am to thaw out.  That's more than cold enough. I could not Imagine living in a place where  it was covered in snow for 3+ months of the year.  No Idea how people put up with that. It would be an unimaginable Hell to me.

Took Dad back to his home town 1 year ago. Got up and went to breakfast. He was complaining of the cold.  Looked at the car thermometer and it was Minus 7C.  When I mentioned it to him he said " I know why I got out of this place as soon as I could and I have never forgotten or wanted to move back!"  Even when we finished breakfast  the car was still covered in ice.  Went to the relatives for a short visit then out of there.
Dad couldn't get home fast enough.  :0)

dieselspanner

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Re: Fired up the old Lister today...
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2018, 08:06:10 AM »
Sat in the Pyrenees reading Glorts post, I can see snow still on two mountains.........................

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.