Phantom Energy Use

[LowGear]

Can anyone find a realistic or reliable data for this phenomena?

[broncodriver99]

I don't know about documented data. I traced down a bunch of things with a kill a watt meter years ago. The newer EnergyStar requirements have cured a lot of it. I think things like electronics now have to have a standby draw of less than 1 watt. I had some electronics that would draw only slightly less energy when off or in standby then when they were on. My cable box was an energy hog no mater what state it was in. That went away when I ditched cable. I don't have one but I recently heard that Keurig coffee makers heat the water chamber 24 hours a day unless you purposely push the off button.

[guest23837]

Radios, televisions, stereo equipment, microwave ovens etc all use some power on standby how much I don't know probably not a lot. My wife goes around at night turning things off at the wall that aren't essential (she says fire risk). Some things like the fridge, chest freezer, alarm, heating controls etc are permanently on. I suppose things like occupancy sensors and PIR lights also use a little power too.
I'd be interested to know how much leaving things on standby actually uses

[broncodriver99]

Two examples off the top of my head:

I have an older Bose 2.1 computer speaker system. It uses 7.5w in standby and 9W on. There is a physical on/off switch on the back of the subwoofer and a touch sensitive switch in the volume control which seems to be more like a mute button. 7.5w in standby 24/7/365 is 65.7kwh. At our $0.125/kwh that's $8.21/year. It is a pain to reach down behind the subwoofer buried out of sight to cut them on and off so I don't bother.

I used to have a Kitchenaid drip coffee maker that used 12 watts 24/7/365. No physical on/off button, just a touch pad. That's $13.14/year.

[LowGear]

I forgot my old friend kill-a-watt.  I'll test me B&D coffee maker today.  I just might test my UPS while I'm at it.

Thanks,

I'm still curious about total US consumption.  I think it's interesting that that manufactures don'e have to list it on the device.

[broncodriver99]

I think it's interesting that that manufactures don'e have to list it on the device.

I think you can extrapolate the data on some things. If they are EnergyStar certified and list what EnergyStar revision they meet you can look up the requirements necessary to meet that revision and it will offer a little data. But, I agree a lot of this information should be readily available from the manufacturers.

[BruceM]

Most newer washing machines now have a significant phantom load and will often trash the entire home wiring with EMI from the phantom load alone.  Poorly designed switching power supplies are the culpret and appliances are still exempted from meeting even the ludicrous FCC conducted emissions standards.  There is a trend towards integrating the power supply into the electroncs board, and this is done by the appliance design engineer who typically has little or now power supply and EMC expertice.  He/she copies a reference design and sorta gets it's working...

There is a consolidation of brands and most US washers all come from the same plant with various brand labels.

The same is true for electric ranges-  most designs now have a switching power supply and digital displays/timer for the oven.  For people with electrical sensitivity, they are a disaster.  Sometimes it will blow away the entire AM radio band anywhere in the house.  By adding a switch to turn off that supply (and the controlled oven) the burners can be used normally, eliminating both the EMI and the phantom load.

This incredible growth of integrating very poor quality switching power supplies into appliances is very sad to see; there is a huge price not just in phantom power, but in the stress on the health of the occupants.

Think twice about buying new appliances. Supporting local repair shops might be a better idea.

[broncodriver99]

Think twice about buying new appliances. Supporting local repair shops might be a better idea.

I have gone back to appliances with mechanical controls as needed. Simpler, cheaper, and usually more reliable.

[BruceM]

Only Speed Queen still makes one mechanical timer controlled top loading washer.  It's a bit over $800 (!).  All the others are now digitalized with the crappy integrated switching supply that's always on.

The older AM radio with hiss or loud static between stations can be reliably used to check out your products for especially bad EMI.  Power strips are your friend for killing both phantom load and 24/7 EMI when the appliance isn't in use.

[broncodriver99]

Only Speed Queen still makes one mechanical timer controlled top loading washer.  It's a bit over $800 (!).  All the others are now digitalized with the crappy integrated switching supply that's always on.

May be an East Coast/West Coast thing. Speed Queen is a rarely seen brand here. Most of the mechanical control machines are Roper brand here and I think Whirlpool may still have a model available. I am pretty sure the Roper and Whirlpool machines are the same just branded differently.

[BruceM]

Roper, Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore-  all the same plant and share parts internally.  No mechanical timers available for any, not for several years now that I am aware of.  The knob that looks like a timer knob is just a selector to the digital board w/switching supply.

If you do find a new mechanical timer- no digital washer, please let me know the make and model!  Some of the older units with mechanical timers where starting to use some digital control modules- with switching power supply.

The Speed Queen commercial top loader unit is the only one I know of that has all AC driven electronics, no switching power supply at all.   

[broncodriver99]

Interesting. I haven't been looking at washers but just noticed the round knobs and "simulated" mechanical controls so assumed there was still a model or two still available. Hopefully my old school Kenmore set will last a few more years. I do have an old barely used Maytag wringer/washer sitting in the shop, Is from towards the end of production in the early '80's. Does a good job if you don't mind risking fingers. It is the top of the line model with the lever engaged pump. 

[BruceM]

Amana is also the same as Roper, Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore.  There's a couple more brands they make at the same plant but I can't remember which.  All have basic model top loaders with what appears to be a rotary timer knob...but it's only a look alike that is a rotary selector switch.  But they all have the same circuit board with mcu and switching power supply inside.  I took an EMI screaming Maytag apart myself and then checked part numbers against other brands with similar looking controls- yep, all the same.

I thought wringer-washers went out of production LONG before the 1980s.

[broncodriver99]

I thought wringer-washers went out of production LONG before the 1980s.

Most did. Maytag made a few a year until around '83. I guess there were a few little old ladies that just wouldn't make the switch to an automatic machine. Mine is the last available model, an N2L, which was discontinued in 1983.

[broncodriver99]

One of these days I will get around to collecting some of the accessories that were available for them. They became essentially a power unit for an accessory line that Maytag dreamed up. Meat grinders, ice cream makers, all kinds of niche attachments.