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Author Topic: Real Engineer's Spice Rack  (Read 260 times)

dieselspanner

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Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« on: September 16, 2018, 05:17:23 PM »
Hi All

The nights are drawing in, the trees are changing colour and the temperature is starting to drop, so I started wonder at what temperature my 80% WVO / 20% Dino would start to wax.

After a bit I came up with this, SWMBO said it was the worst diy spice rack she'd seen.......

Anyway it's screwed to the inside wall of an open car port so once I've nicked a thermometer from somewhere I'll have a good Redneck early warning system, for nothing but an hours fun.

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

EdDee

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2018, 06:28:01 PM »
15/10 Stef... Redneck engineering...not a chance! Good common sense and a simple solution to a problem... love it!
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Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

LowGear

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2018, 09:33:39 PM »
Where are the ones with 10% gasoline?
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veggie

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 02:48:27 PM »

+1 Casey

A good test, yes.
It would be good to have a sample with 80% WVO / 20% gasoline. (a very popular blend in cooler weather)

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glort

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2018, 05:23:16 PM »

Not a big fan of blending with Diesel.  In order to properly thin something, you have to have a component thinner than where you want to end up.
To me, blending with diesel does not give you thin oil, it gives you thick Diesel.

Blending with Petrol has a number of benefits. I believe an important one is to create a fuel where the light off point is much closer to that of diesel than the retarded ignition timing veg has.
If I want performance, I add 5% ULP no matter what the weather. The boost is not because of thinner fuel which really is irrelevant, it's because the petrol lights off in the cylinder way before the oil but then causes the oil to light earlier.  Very few people I have come across re time their engines to suit oil so getting the fuel cetane value close to that of diesel has a lot of benefits including cleaner burning due to the more correct burning Dwell time in the cylinder which gives a more complete combustion.

I would suggest that ULP at 20% would be something most vehicles would only want to use in temps down to snowing.  Warmer than that I stick to 15%.
Over about 10% the power loss of ULP becomes evident. At 20% in warm weather there are potential issues with Vapor lock from the fuel boiling in the lines in the hot engine bay particularly after short stop/ heat soak/ restart cycles.
ULP blending has always given me much better starting than diesel in cold weather. In my experience, 10% ULP blend left a 50% Diesel blend for dead where starting was concerned.  Depens on your engine though.  The TD42 engine in my patrol will start without a problem below 0oC on straight, dried WVO.  The OM617 engine in my merc and my 405 Peugeot were pretty hopeless at anything approaching 10o on straight oil.  Even with 10% ULP blends, below 5c they usually needed a shot of Methanol down the intake to get going in the morning but were fine after that.   

Blending with ULP will also lower the gel point of the Blend a lot better than Diesel will.
Not sure if the term used of waxing was meant to mean gelling but blending with Diesel can cause Wax to drop out which comes from the diesel. This is a much more significant issue than just gelling as the wax can be hard to melt out even when the fuel and underbonnet temps are warm. It creates some sort of weird chemical issue where the stuff will stay solid way above the temp it should melt.  This waxing is a direct result of the Diesel additive rather than coming from the oil and many assume.

The other HIGHLY significant factor with gelling is the water content of the oil.  The gel point can be lowered many degrees by just taking the water out.
I have Dried thousands of litres of settled fats that were significantly gelled which were completely or very near it Liquid at the same temps afterwards.
Mate and I once got 5000L of fat from a guy whom had settled it out of his oil and wanted to offload his dregs. Just by drying the oil we reduced the fat ( and crumbs) to under 500L of slops.  The resulting oil stayed completely liquid and was very clear and bright well below the previous temps it was too thick to be of use.  Fats tend to hold the major water component in oil making them even more prone to gelling.

I have heard of some people Mixing in ULP and then settling.  Seems backwards to me. No matter what you do, you are going to loose a lot of the ULP and it also creates a possible vapor hazard. Settling oil to allow the lighter fractions to come to the top and the crap to go to the bottom is the easiest and least energy intensive ways of getting good oil.  From there it is easier to remove the small amount of remaining moisture and filter.
The slops can be combined from several settling tanks and if then left till summer, a good amount more oil can be drawn off.
The remainder can be force dried and the yield I got was always at least 80% from the re settled and combined slops. If it was pre filtered to remove the crumbs and particles, the yield was more as  the rubbish holds a lot of water as well as taking up space.

The solids were usually used to feed a fire used for heating and drying so were useful and eliminated the need for anything to be disposed of out of the process.

I did a similar spice rack test in the fridge. was a quick way of determining where the gel point was and what blending agents worked best. ULP ALWAYS beat Diesel.  Turps worked well too and I had a supply of that for some years left over in IBC's containing print press wash. Place always used to leave about 100L in the bottom of the tanks and they went through about 3-4 tanks a week so I could run Very thin blends with all the benifits of a thin blending agent with non of the problems of High blend ULP mixes.  Mate gets Jet tuel from his work which is probably the ultimate blending agent.
If anyone has an airport near them with maintence hangers, well worth visiting them with a slab of beer to get them to save the stuff for you.

Turbine fuel has additives to keep the stuff liquid to -40C and the military fuels have even lower gel temps if you can get hold of them.
Once fuel is taken out of an aircraft it is not allowed to go back in them but goes real well in a diesel vehicle or stationary engine.  :0)

sirpedrosa

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2018, 09:41:34 PM »
Hi Glort

You're an encyclopedia ... a little extensive. But good experiences are always appreciated, at least I speak for myself, that I am here looking for someone who has good information to share.

If this is the case, please, have you the Bryce injector model NSDLA052D0359 manual.

BR
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dieselspanner

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2018, 09:48:53 PM »
Hi All

The reason I've been using 20% Dino and 80% WVO (as a start point) is a bit Glort like!

The only guy I know running WVO in a 200TDI Landy is running 50 / 50, having read all sorts of varying information on various web sites and fora I decided to take 'baby steps' and form my own opinions based on my own observations.

I started with 50 / 50 then shifted to 20 / 80, running a couple of tank fulls of each, and noting the performance on two different routes I use frequently. The first is a 2 k stretch from the end of our drive to the village of Gripp in which the road rises 175 meters, how well the truck is pulling in fourth as I go through the village is obvious, with the speed / power droping off as the percentage diesel decreases. The other is a short sharp climb up to the ridge to the east of here, in second, same result.

I was hampered at first by the shite the WVO  shook loose from the 38 year old fuel tank clogging every thing up, a couple of fuel filters and strip down of the injectors followed by re plumbing of the turbo to inlet manifold with a silicone hoses and a 180 alluminium bend (instead of the bits and pieces I picked up at the local scrap yard) gave me decent performance on Dino, and a base line.

A tank lasts me around 3 weeks so I guess I'll be at it for a while.

Next up is WVO and ULP, which begs the question is it worth starting on 5% or do I go straight to 10?

Once I get some more shed time I'll have a go at water injection, I've got a systolic pump and a couple of meters of tubing doing nothing.

The up side of living here is I get to do the same runs over and over, I put the dog in the Landy and drive a few K most days, just so we can go somewhere different without walking on the road first (The fact that one of us has an abiding interest in mushrooms also has a bearing)

Once I finish this tank I'll switch to ULP, I  tried diesel first as it's summer here, up to 35 daytime, now it's getting cooler, down to 5 at night, The old Mccormick tractor, on straight WVO took some heater pugs and cranking this morning.

When I do I'll add another couple of 'spices'

Cheers Stef



Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mike90045

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2018, 09:49:27 PM »

....

Turbine fuel has additives to keep the stuff liquid to -40C and the military fuels have even lower gel temps if you can get hold of them.
Once fuel is taken out of an aircraft it is not allowed to go back in them but goes real well in a diesel vehicle or stationary engine.  :0) 

Do you add any oil for fuel pump / injector lube when you use JP1 ?

glort

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Re: Real Engineer's Spice Rack
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 12:14:31 AM »

having read all sorts of varying information on various web sites and fora I decided to take 'baby steps' and form my own opinions based on my own observations.

ALWAYS the smartest route to take.
Far too many people just copy what the guy they read of did with their setup who copied the guy before them who copied another guy and no one ever stopped to think why they were doing or what the relationship of their own circumstances was to the others.

Different vehicles, oils conditions and a Myriad of other things make a difference and and the only thing thats important is what is best for YOUR circumstances. Doing your own testing and observations is the smartest thing few people are bright enough to do.  You can avoid a lot of unnecessary effort, complication and expense when you know what your vehicle needs or conversely make sure you have done enough to get the vehicle to perform the way you want.

Quote
Next up is WVO and ULP, which begs the question is it worth starting on 5% or do I go straight to 10? I  tried diesel first as it's summer here, up to 35 daytime, now it's getting cooler, down to 5 at night,

With daytime temps that High, I'd be sticking to 5%.  If you are not doing early morning starts or have the vehicle in a garage at night, definitely no need to go over 5%.  What sort of IP is on the Landy?  If it's an inline or rotary, you probably don't need any blending at all but 5% ULP will help with power.
Again a benefit of using petrol over Diesel.  Diesel won't bring the timing forward like ULP will.

When blending with ULP at those Temps, DO NOT use any alcohol blended fuels. Alcohol boils at 70o, petrol at 90. That difference can give a lot of problems with Vapor lock when the 1Ml of alcohol turns into 1 litre of gas in your lines and pump.  If all you have is Alcohol laced fuel, Wash it.
Get a drum and add about 25% water to the mix and give it a shake. In a minute or 5 you will see the water separate from the petrol. The Ethanol will bond with the water and the petrol will be " Pure" . You can drain the petrol from a tap in the bottom of the drum to make separation easy.
The water can be used in your WI system to really give the thing a kick up the hills so it's not wasted.

I used to pretty much blend to the conditions at the time.  I removed the fuel tank from my old merc and used 25L plastic drums instead that had the fuel lines coming out the top. I could load them cartridge style.  I used to do a lot of running round picking the kids up from school etc so no tank would have lasted me weeks.  If it was warm I'd put in a low/ No blend. If the next day was cool I'd pull that tank and put in a higher blend. if it got hot again I'd pull that half tank and put the low blend back in.  I had to fill up anyway so wasn't as much effort as it sounded.  I even ran straight fat sometimes on long trips on the summer. Heat it up or leave it in the sun and once it was liquid the heat of the return fuel kept it that way and on a hot day, being in the boot would keep it liquid while the car was parked whilever the sun was on it.  Lard is great fuel!


Quote
The old Mccormick tractor, on straight WVO took some heater pugs and cranking this morning.

Many people have this proclivity about an engine having to start within .3 of a second from the moment you look at the key. As long as the starts are reliable and under about 10 sec, I never worried. Bit of cranking gives the engine time to pick up the oil and build some pressure before it lights. Race and aircraft engines are often cranked with the ignition off until they come up to pressure ( or run an electric oil priming pump) so the engine does not light on unpressurised bearings and components.  The delay in lighting off a veg fueled engine gives the same benefit and I was always amused at why some people ( not saying you stef) have a proclivity in how fast an engine must light to be satisfactory and deem the fuel blend good.

If your engine is a little slow to start but starts every time after a few seconds, then I say it's perfect!

One thing to be aware of Stef is your blends will always be changing. You'll want 2-3 base blends  to allow for the almost ever changng temps of the season. Autum and spring are pretty much the same thing in reverse but summer and winter are different and need to be catered for.  Don't think you'll find a blend and say this works because you'll find it may soon not.  Get an idea of what the engine likes at a certain time and use that as a base.  From there add or subtract as need be.

As temps are going down where you are, I'd be careful of filling the tank. What works at the start may not be so good 3 weeks later. I'd be trying to just put enough in for a weeks travels till you get a feel for what the thing needs. If you ever do get stuck, Methanol, methylated spirits or in a pinch, petrol can be put down the intake  ( small bottle capful) to get the thing to light up.  Once they fire a bit they will generally have no problem running on whatever from there.  If you live on a Hill you could park the thing nose down and just clutch start it in the mornings and not blend at all! :

Don't leave it too long to get onto the WI. Cleaning the engine with that will change the parameters again and give you easier starts still.
I used to run a 50% Meth mix in winter and just give the WI  a hit before I cranked so it had some booze in the intake to help light the thing off. It worked really well...... Until I ran out of water and had to put some start fluid down the intake manually.