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Author Topic: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?  (Read 1493 times)

ajaffa1

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Hey Boxelder, It would appear from the photos and the reviews that the engine itself is probably well made, I believe the problem is that in an effort to expand production and sales they have cut corners. This usually involves sourcing the cheapest parts while cutting back on R&D and quality control. If the engine design is robust then run it and replace cheap hoses and ancillaries as you go, you should end up with a reliable donkey. Sounds like the genny head itself is worth the money.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Bob

glort

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Engine sure is a Kubota Knock off.  Like all the china engines, Copied off something.

I once descaled an engine just running a caustic Soloution through it.  Bypasses the radiator and heater cores and the waterpump was shot and going to be replaced anyway  so I ran the thing up hot, let it sit a while and then put this abrasive stuff though it.  Was very light and tended to stay  suspended. Not sure what it was now. It was black though.

Dumped the caustic soloution and Hosed and hosed that engine out and had a gun that you put on the hose and the compresses air and it blew a strong stream like a pressure washer.  Put that in every hole I could and from what I saw, the engine came up pretty good. I then did what they tell you not to and refilled the engine an put some ordinary engine oil in the coolant and ran that.  Coated the water passages and went Milky. Dropped that after a few hours running then refilled  and although I never ran coolant/ rust inhibitor, the water stayed Clean.  Didn't read till years later oil in the block was supposedly bad.  I never had any trouble at all!

ajaffa1

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Kubota knock off, what a surprise! How do the Chinese get away with stealing/reverse engineering other peoples intellectual property? If I were to do that here I would very quickly find myself in court facing huge damages for breach of copyright and infringement of patent.

That said I own several machines with Chinese Honda copy engines and most of them perform well enough but I doubt there longevity.

So give it a bit of love and attention and it should last for years.

Bob

Boxelder

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Thanks guys.  Good info.

I've put a lot of thought into the IP theft by Chinese companies.  It seems to be absolutely endemic to their nature to take without asking and claiming IP as their own.  This will need to be addressed before they can be taken seriously a true global power.

All those sticky political issues aside, does anyone know which particular model of Kubota they knocked off with this design?  Also, why would they have chosen this particular Kubota design vs. any other diesel design within this HP capability?

Granted, I've just discovered the world of large single-cylinder diesels, but I think I'm beginning to get a grip on how they got here.  The Chinese singles (Changfa/Changchai/Laidong/et al) seem to be knockoffs or were at least heavily influenced by an old Yanmar walking tractor design.  They seem to have been originally created for use on said walking tractors, hence the otherwise inexplicable headlight commonly found on them.

Yet I've seen so many claims that they are actually a German design.  Would that be a German design specifically created for the Chinese makers, or would it be a patent-violating copy of a proven successful design?

And this leads me to another entire line of thought:  How did the Chinese choose which engines to copy?  Was it based on manufacturing ease, manufacturing cost, durability relative to cost, or fuel efficiency?  Is there a list somewhere of the "donor" engines which the knockoffs are based on?  For example, the 195 or 1115 design - is there a direct western or Japanese equivalent which was simply copied?

So many questions.  It really does fascinate me to try and figure this stuff out.

Boxelder

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Also as far as the rust removal from the water jacket goes, I'm first going to try an EvapoRust product called Thermocure.  It's designed to do exactly what we're talking about, and for $16 I'll give it a shot.  If I'm not satisfied with the result I'll up the ante and try some harsher chemistry.

glort

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How do the Chinese get away with stealing/reverse engineering other peoples intellectual property?

Easy! The Chinese do not recognise Copyright. It's not in their laws or against them.  I'm sure there are laws in China that we don't recognise and we can't expect them to recognise ours.

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If I were to do that here I would very quickly find myself in court facing huge damages for breach of copyright and infringement of patent.

HERE being the operative word.  Not defending them per se, just explaining that it is Not Illegal there and it is here.
The fact of the matter is the west accepts their breach of Copyright by allowing the goods to be imported and sold. While the Americans bitch the loudest about " Chinese Crap" they are by far and away the biggest consumers of it. The rest of us in fact condone it by allowing the goods to be sold as well.
While we can't impose our laws on them, we could impose our own sanctions....which we do not.

That being the case, who's really at fault?


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That said I own several machines with Chinese Honda copy engines and most of them perform well enough but I doubt there longevity.

My father has a few bits of machinery with the Chinese copy motors and so far, with a lot of hard use over 4-5 years, have not had a scrap of trouble with them. I'll admit, we were suspect on them, especially Dad. His opinion now is, he wouldn't be bothered paying for a Honda motor ( Would not have let anything else in the place before!)  because the Chinese motors are so good and 1/4-1/3rd the price so if one falls over he can replace it, more than once, and still be no better off.

I had a mate whom had a small engine / lawn mower Shop. Even 10+ years ago he was saying that He saw little in the knock off engines that was much different to the Honda's and in some ways, they were better because a couple of problems Hondas had, they had designed out. Parts weren't so available then but as he said, all the Honda parts fit so there is no problem repairing an engine if you want to bet Figure you may as well just go buy another and be done with it.

The fact of the matter is, I would 100X rather have a Chinese Clone than a Briggs/ Tecumseh  particularly.  I have a Couple of Kohlers on different things I have bought and while I have never had occasion to dig into the guts of them so far, they seem to be OK.  Briggs and Tecumseh are complete and utter garbage no matter what some patriot may say because of their country of origin.
I have bought new equipment with these engine on it and being forwarned, before starting the things, I tore them down. If you thought a roid was bad in the way they are chucked together, Cut your teeth on a briggs. I got a mower with one years ago and there was so much casting flashing in the inlet port, I doubt you would have got a pencil through it nor the thing would have done more than about 2 Hp from it's rated 5.  Another had enough crap inside the thing to trash it first time it was used and over all, just the overall Cheap arse way they were put together was shameful.

And what moron thought it was a good Idea to have an engine with an aluminium bore and hardened steel Piston rings? There's  an idea for Longevity.... NOT! Of course the "bearings" were also the soft aluminium the engine was made out of and got splash lubrication to support the steel crank.
What happened with these engines is the bearing area got so flogged out, the crank would move so much you couldn't set the coil and point gap because at one throw there could be near nothing and on the other throw it was too wide to work.

They were also still running the Flat L head design while Honda was doing Roller bearings and OHV with low oil shutoff.
Briggs had those infernal Pulsa Jet or what ever they were call carbs with the float bowl cast Into the tank  and those ancient Updraft things on the larger engines that the auto and aircraft industries got away from 40 years beforehand where Honda had a proper unit design like a Kehin/ Mikuni like they all have now. Honda was running proper Pressure Lube, with filters on the larger engines while Briggs still only had splash then made a big deal of it when they got with the times.
 
Come to think of it,  Briggs etc copied  the Honda Design before the Chinese did!
 I can tell you which one pre dates the other by a long way.

You would be Familiar with Victa mowers here Bob. An Aussie company that makes lawn mowers bought out by Briggs some years ago.
The fact an engine company puts their competitors engines, Hondas, on their own product tell's me all I need to know about them!
:0)

ajaffa1

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Couldn`t agree more, I had a Victa 2 stroke lawnmower, got it second hand six years old. scraped it this year because the chassis had rusted out. Engine probably still had ten years left in it. That said, it drank fuel and two stroke oil. I replaced it last year with a top of the range modern Victa mower with a Briggs and Stratton engine. Nothing but trouble, carburettor off it weekly cos it won`t start . It`s also developed a nasty vibration which I think is probably the lower main bearing, I`ll know for sure when the bottom oil seal fails and spits sh!T everywhere.

I am a big believer in the idea that you get what you pay for, Chinese is as good as any product, if you want to compete with them you need to find a way of producing a better quality product at the same price.

The alternative is to buy old, quality machinery, restore it and enjoy problem free use for the rest of your life, which I think is the whole purpose of forums like this.

Bob

glort

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This will need to be addressed before they can be taken seriously a true global power.

Ummm, I hate to say it but if you thank China are not an absolute global power already, You need to get on the net and educate yourself.  A lot.
They are a global super power and have been for a long time now.  No body is going to address their Copyright infringement because in fact they are supporting it by allowing the import and sale of chinese goods in a HUGE range of industries.

Have you any insight to Chines Vehicles?  they rip off GM, Ford, BMW, AUdi and many others with such precision the only way you could tell it's NOT a BMW 5 Series is because it's got "CHERRY"  on the arse end of the thing not the autobahn burner's moniker.

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All those sticky political issues aside, does anyone know which particular model of Kubota they knocked off with this design?  Also, why would they have chosen this particular Kubota design vs. any other diesel design within this HP capability?

No sticky political issues at all, this isn't something new. 
The engine series looks like the Kubota D series which are small inline engines with several variations and capacities in the 3 Cyl range. Yanmar do some too but I'm not as familiar with those.  The reason they copied them is the same as everything else, You copy the best design, not the worst.
 Same reason they ( and briggs etc) ripped off the Honda design but I'm not aware of any copying the crappy briggs.


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The Chinese singles (Changfa/Changchai/Laidong/et al) seem to be knockoffs or were at least heavily influenced by an old Yanmar walking tractor design.  They seem to have been originally created for use on said walking tractors, hence the otherwise inexplicable headlight commonly found on them.

Yanmar is Japanese. They recognise Copyright unlike the Chinese.  To mix the 2 up would be like ignorantly assuming Canada and the US are the same.
The japs tend to Copy and refine ideas rather than just produce a knock off that is interchangeable with the original as the chinese do.
Both the horozontal air and water cooled and the vertical aircooled layonts so popular with the likes of Changfa are YANMAR Designs.

They started in 1912 with engines that looked the same as every other engine of the time and were probably hit and miss as well as they started in petrol engines not diesel.  The petrols were not a success so the guy that set up the company COMMISSIONED the company who is now MAN to design and build them prototypes of engines which he took back to japan, worked on further and came up with a design of their own for 3 and 5 Hp small OIL engines which no one else was doing at the time.

They didn't knock off any design, they bought and paid for the best engineers in the field at the time to come design something that met their criteria.

Yanmar was always very big in teh agricultural Fiels and did a line of walking tractors which they no doubt incorporated the headlight for.

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Yet I've seen so many claims that they are actually a German design.  Would that be a German design specifically created for the Chinese makers, or would it be a patent-violating copy of a proven successful design?
Yes, it was a German design yanmar Paid MAN to create for them back in the early '30's. It wasn't a diesel either, they developed that themselves. The early engines were all oil engines till the late 30's when teh then president of yanmar, a successful company by then decided to go to doing only diesels which were still somewhat emerging at the time in small configurations.

 No German company was making them and yanmar were the first to come out with the layout which they still use which is based on the hit and miss engines at the time but they did verticals and inlines as well.  Yanmar still do inlines particularly for the marine market and for things like earthmoving equipment.

The patent would have been yanmars because the owner of the company had the good sense to go to the best in the field at the time and pay them for something they saw a need for. The yanmars were Designed for industrial use and agriculture.
The current horozontal layout design was a creation of yanmars back in about 1950. The Verticals copied by the chinese are also a yanmar design of the early '80s.


[/quote]
So many questions.  It really does fascinate me to try and figure this stuff out.

As they say in the classics, Google is your friend.

Yanmar did a very comprehensive booklet about their history for their 100 year anniversary in 2012. You can probably find it online somewhere.  I read it years back and it was quite interesting. Typical Story of dedication and commitment that is popular with most jap companies and why they have come as far as they have.

You might like to read the story of Honda as well. Another guy that wasn't satisfied with things and had the balls to go out against the odds and build an empire of a company.

The west TALKS of commitment to quality and all that but really they are concerned about money. The Japs had honour and employees took real pride and ownership of what they did. Others did but I doubt there were too many GM, ford or Lister employees that offed themselves because they felt they failed their employer. That's the difference between talking about being comitted and really being comitted..... Or should have BEEN commited to an institution before things got too much for them.  :0(



glort

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Couldn`t agree more, I had a Victa 2 stroke lawnmower, got it second hand six years old. scraped it this year because the chassis had rusted out. Engine probably still had ten years left in it.
The alternative is to buy old, quality machinery, restore it and enjoy problem free use for the rest of your life, which I think is the whole purpose of forums like this.


They stopped making real Victa's in '84 when they discontinued the old engine with the separate head/ barrel/ crankcase and bought in that garbage power tourqe POS engine. 
What clown thought an engine with a pressed Conrod and supported on only one side with a bearing was a good idea? Further more, what idiots continued with that design when it proved to be a failure?  Oh, that's right BRIGGS!
Guess they didn't see the difference to any other POS they made. Only reason they arse canned it was because it couldn't pass emissions regs crap.

The real Victas were incredible engines. I used to hot rod the things and could get over 12 HP out of engines designed to do 3.8.  I NEVER broke one despite trying real hard. I would run them till they boiled the fuel in the carbs and were that hot would melt plastic starter housings. I built them for Mowers, Go karts and outboards and they would just go and go and you couldn't break them as long as you kept oil on the fuel.  you could tear them down completely and rebuild them in an hour.

I remember doing one engine for a mates Kid's go kart.  I threw everything at this engine.  Another mate who worked on a top fuel Dragster dropped round just as I was Bolting the thing to a mower Chassis and putting a wobble plate on the bottom with no blades to test fire aand give it a bit of a break in.  Stuff me.  I shaved the head far as I could on the thing to make a squish chamber. I bored the heck out of the inlet and outlet ports and widened the transfers as well as moved them about 1mm. Don't sound much but makes a LOT of difference on those little motors to the timing. I put a 28 MM mikuni Carb off a Motor bike on the thing nad it was jetted up over what the larger engined Bike had. I filed the hell out of the timing plate to advance it  about 8o. I chamfered the Piston and cut the skirt a little to change the port timing a bit more.  I got a special alloy crank for it which was made for the go kart racing series.
The thing was ripped.

I fired it up and straight away you could tell it was a weapon. it sat there idling and was twisting the whole mower chassis every time time it fired. I gave it a rev and it went from like 1500 to 6000 instantly.  I gave it a big rev and the thing literally screamed and this was with just a slightly Modified ( read garbage) muffler on it.  Hadn't even hooked up the power pipe I had.

I remember watching the thing sitting there idling turning itself in circles on the drive way and saying to my mate innocently, " I think I went a bit far with that one". My Mate looks and says " Naaaaa! Ya think?? It sounds like what's in teh drag car and that things not running Nitro!"
We were laughing about that a few weeks ago when I caught up with him.

I was a great go kart motor but I did go too far with it. The thing was so peaky it was like a switch, idle or flat out and not a lot in between.  Mate was a bit worried about his son going too fast with the thing so I put a standard ignition plate back on it and a smaller Carb which tamed it slightly. Changed the sprockets so it had less top end but it still pulled really hard on the bottom end even with the gearing which was surprising for a 2 stroke that peaky. I think it just allowed the engine to get on song faster.

I miss playing with those awesome little 2 Strokes.


I'll give you a BIG tip with mowers and other equipment Bob....
NEVER, EVER put that E10 crap in them.
It will pull the moisture out the air and you'll end up with water in the tank and the carb every single time.
Had that with the neighbors mower. Got tire of patching up her POS Briggs engined thing and persuaded her daughter to buy her a Honda.
Went OK for a while then she could never start it and I always found water in the fuel.  Didn't know what she was doing to it.  finally figured out she was getting that E-10 crap and it was pulling all the water out the air.  Thing is hot, has some fuel left that cools pulling in air and the thing sits in the shed and cycles hot cold every day breathing.  Before you know it, carb full of water.

Started getting her proper fuel, no more issues.
The only thing that E-10 is good for is killing weeds and the profits of wreckers who can sell you new O2 sensors and cat converters for your car.

On things like Chines chainsaws and other 2 strokes, It will eat the hell out the crappy fuel line they use and sometimes the carb Diaphragms.
E-10 is terrible rubbish that shouldn't be sold other than for parts degresing and even then the alcohol burns the crap out your skin.

Boxelder

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Well I tried hard not to get into political nuance.  It's a topic which influences our current discussion, however.

Glort, you're very well informed about the history of diesels and other small engines.  Thanks for your input on that.  But please don't assume everyone from the U.S. is completely naive about global politics and how things work.  I've been to every continent save Antarctica, at last count 25 countries, and have personally been to China to do product and factory inspections when we were thinking about importing and selling evacuated tube solar water heaters.  To be told I need to open my eyes to the nuances of politics comes across as being a bit off key.  And I also have no idea where you got the idea that I think Yanmar is Chinese.  I never said or even implied that to be the case, and I already own one of their tractors.  Also a Kubota and a Mahindra.  Yes, I also know the Mahindra is Indian, not Japanese or Chinese.

Also, the reason I'm here on this forum with you guys in the first place is that this is an exceptional repository of knowledge by some fine folks who live and breathe internal combustion.  Twice now I've been told to "Google it" as if I haven't put in the homework before asking questions.  Yes, I could do all this on my own.  And usually I do it all by myself.  But what fun is that?  How would I get the viewpoints of others who already have been steeped in the lore for decades?  How would I learn about the questions I don't even know to ask?  And also by asking the seemingly simple questions and having them answered here, they're saved for posterity.  And I think you all can admit that it's at least a little bit fun to be able to show off your hard-won knowledge to the newbie and to each other.

To outsource the search for knowledge completely to Google while ignoring the people's knowledge is going to be one of the downfalls of civilization.  The Lore should be kept alive from person to person, not outsourced to our Silicon Valley overlords.

Johndoh

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It's no great surprise that China is copying other peoples designs after all they make them for us! The Chinese engines on stuff like pressure washers and generators are good because they have the blueprints and specs. I mentioned earlier there's a company selling generators with 186F engines but they're made under license in China under license from Yanmar. My Korean brand TV was made in China as was my Finnish brand phone and Italian brand coffee machine. To be honest they are good enough products the big companies are interested in the bottom line if they could train monkeys to make stuff they would.

Just wondering, if I found a product that was invented, designed and produced in China would I get away with making rip offs in Ireland and selling them in Beijing? I think not,  most if not all of the western world is up to their tits in debt to the Chinese .  I doubt anyone really wants the Chinese to call in the debts
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

ajaffa1

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Knew an industrialist when I lived in the UK, b*stard claimed to be a socialist and even ran in the local elections. Laid off all his 400 workers and shut the factory so he could transfer production to China. More profit in importing goods than manufacturing and exporting them. No wonder we are all in debt to China when our own industry is run by greedy, selfish twats like him.

I never run E10 in any home engines, as you say it is hydroscopic and causes too many problems. The problem with the Briggs and Stratton lawnmower is that there is no fuel filter, just a strainer in the fuel tank. Main jet keeps clogging with bits  of grass. One day I`ll get around to fitting an in line fuel filter. That`s if the bottom bearing doesn`t fail first.

Bob

Johndoh

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We don't get E10 in Ireland or rather we do but we don't really have a choice it's in our unleaded petrol. I use fuel stabilizer in the lawnmower, pressure washer and the 2 stroke generator. I don't know if it does any good but it does add a fiver on to a tenners worth of petrol. Most used things I buy with a small petrol engine usually needs the carburettor cleaned or replaced (very good Chinese copies for 12.00)!
We used to have 4 star pumps in Ireland they seem to have went the way of Park Drive cigarettes and scantily clad ladies on lager cans. I occasionally see 4 star pumps in northern Ireland so I assume 4 star is still available in the UK?
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

glort

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If I could only get ethanol laced fuel, I'd wash it.

Pour water in it, shake it up and let it separate.  The Ethanol will go into the water and form a layer and the clean petrol will be underneath. Drain water off from bottom of drum and clean Petrol left.

Yep, Done it numerous times and it does work.

No, no water in the petrol because pure petrol and water wont mix at all. 

Also have a look at the MSDS of your Fuel stabiliser.  Naptha ( lighter fluid, shellite, Coleman fuel and other names it's sold under) is a VERY common additive to all Oil and fuel miracles in a can. If that's the main ingredient in your fuel treatment, You can probably buy it for 1/10th the price by volume from your hardware or paint supplies store.

MANY additives for fuel and Oil treatments have this in them ( no matter what they are supposed to do) so if it's in the stabliser as well, there is a much cheaper alternative to getting a better result than the packaged additives that usually just have naptha and something like Diesel and kero in them.

Johndoh

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B&S fuel stabilizer ingredients according to the data sheet

It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness