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Author Topic: WI  (Read 1481 times)

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2018, 01:52:00 AM »
I had to search widely to find a pneumatic diaphram pump with the right diaphram material for handling biodiesel. The stuff destroyed my hand crank barrel pump and my air drill powered vane pump in just a few days.

The China made motorized ball valves have changed my automation world; I can get for under $50. what used to cost $350 to $500. The ones with the super cap that close on power off, thus acting like a super low power solenoid valve are especially handy.   

But by far the best thing China has done for me is Zennioptical.  I have MS related vision problems- difficulty moving eyes and focussing which resulted in ferocious headaches shortly after putting my glasses on in the morning.  By experimenting with under-correction to various degrees, and finding just the right correction for various tasks and distances, I do WAY better.  This took buying a trial lens set, trial frame set and owning a lot of glasses.  By sticking to under $10 bargain frames including RX lenses, this was possible.  It also made me realize that the US opticians had been screwing me my whole life.  The Zenni bargain frames and lenses are better quality, by far, than the $350 glasses I had been getting.






BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 10:37:26 PM »
Got the cheap peristalsis pump and tested it.  It's junk.  Wouldn't pump at all as delivered, the bare motor shaft is friction drive on the nylon rollers- a bit of oil on the shaft meant it was just slipping and not pumping. Only the tubing pressure on the rollers pressing against the motor shaft?? Not an reliable design for remote use.  I cleaned it and limbered up the tubing and then it worked- but it draws 250ma of 12V, not 80ma.  Specifications from China are rarely meaningful.  At 6V it still draws 230 ma but barely moves.  The motor is overloaded for this application and draws way more current than needed for the task.  It is certainly never going to last the 6000 hours service life specified.

I've ordered a different pump, $15, with alleged gear drive, 6V, 30ma. 





« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 01:59:34 AM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 01:41:46 AM »

Mine must have been different. It has the bare shaft drive on the rollers but they definitely worked even on oil!

Was a bit small for what I wanted and I'll agree longevity may be a problem as would anything with a cheap brushed motor but I didn't expect a lot for the money.
I'll have to go drag mine out and give it a run to see if it's still OK. Saw it in a box up there the other day with the speed controller still attached.

Looking at the work to be done and the setup of the motors, do you think the one you ordered is capable of only pulling 30 Ma?  Seems unbelievably low for a motor to be doing much at all to me. Driving gears in any pump creates some friction, even just in the seals. then there is the effort required to move the water in the first place. Gear pumps have many advantages but I would not have said low power input was one of them.
 I think you may be dissapointed with this pump as well.

Why the need to draw such minimal power Bruce?

What about using your air? I have done this for oil burners.
Small regulator pressurizes  a Drum on the floor 1-2 Lb. You could tap from the bottom of the drum or have a tube through the lid or top ( lids really need disconnects for attaching and removal for water filling.) which the water is pushed up to where you want it.
You could have a solenoid on the water feed to start the injection and one to cut it off.
With the water at a fixed pressure you will get a fixed flowrate so your bent bit of pipe will administer the same amount of water.

Uses no power at all.

For added Complication/ benifit, you could do what I did.  Fill an old gas bottle with Compressed air. Use an old Oxy Regulator for your pressure from the gas bottle into the water tank. they are extremely accurate at low pressures.  That's it.  Keep it separate ( if preferential) from your other air supply.
Worst that can happen is you run out of air and the engine gets no water till you top it up.  Of course a small Gas bottle with 100 PSI will move a lot of water ( or oil) before it needs pumping up again.
Of course there may be no need to bother with that, I'm not sure of your needs and working preferences.

Seems to me though you are short on electrical power but have endless energy in the compressed air ( and probably a lot of experience with it as well as left over fittings etc) which will easily do the job you want. 

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 02:27:35 AM »
I could live with the 250ma, but the pump I got is just too cheesy in design.  The motor is over loaded, irregular in sound, warm. I don't see it lasting the rated 6000 hours.  It did put out about 100 ml/minute at nearly no lift as specified.

A low pressure drive of a water vessel is a good idea, as is using a small bubbling of compressed air to pump water up via tubing into the intake manifold, but I'm still hoping for an acceptable quality electric pump.  Otherwise, I'll reconsider.  I'll get the new pump on Friday.

Compressed air is a bit annoying at times- things like regulators, pilot valves, and check valves all leak and that is "normal".  For example a low pressure regulator will occasionally not seat well and slowly leak a lot of air over half a day.  No matter the brand. I do have a variable amount of leakage the entire time the Listeroid is running, since the controller needs air for shut down control and control of the air compressor.  The pilot valve for the compressor leaks a little (again, it varies) and the air compressor unloaders which must be pressurized if the air compressor is belted but not being used. 

veggie

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Re: WI
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2018, 10:55:32 PM »
BruceM

A bit late to this thread. I just saw your video. (Nice system by the way  ;)  )
Have you considered these small 12 volt pumps to push the water into your misting nozzle?
They are typically used for small fertilizer sprayers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Water-High-Pressure-Diaphragm-70W-Self-Priming-Pump/112845409190?epid=2171526613&hash=item1a461c4ba6:g:YW4AAOSwGvZamQmh

A lot of people use them for water injection here in the great white north.
No gravity required and they can be activated by manual switch for temporary dosing,  a timer, a temp switch, or whatever you like.
Control flow with a needle valve in the discharge line.

Veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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Re: WI
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2018, 11:13:17 PM »
....aslo, if you want to get really nerdy you can add a 12 vdc pulse width modulator for flow/speed control.
I use one of these pumps to push warm thin WVO through my 5 mic filters and I added this little unit to control the flow rate.
Just dial the speed to the flow that you want. Very inexpensive.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-24V-48V-2000W-MAX-10-50V-40A-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller/192229829982?hash=item2cc1ca6d5e:g:6TIAAOSwCkZZUgJr

Veggie

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 11:16:46 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 11:46:22 PM »
Thanks, Vege.  That's WAY more pump and power use than needed for my desired trickle of 20 ml/minute.  When doing only air compressing, I have 12V from battery, charging via 40W PV.  So realistically 2.5 amps and perhaps 1 amp on a cloudy day, and running off battery when dark. Right now, my run time current draw it tiny, perhaps 40ma total. 

I got the Yosoo brand peristalsis pump today.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The rollers ARE gear driven, it works fine without fussing with the tubing, but it draws 250 ma at 6V.  Not terrible but a far cry from the listing of 30ma.  They are lugging the motor pretty badly with an inadequate gear ratio. Somewhat disappointing.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I spent the afternoon updating my Picaxe engine controller software for the new 40x2 part, which is really a PIC 8 bit 18F MCU.  It allows software reassignment of all input/output pins so now I've got loads of spares.  The new parts are upwardly pin compatible, just some minor software mods needed. 

I do appreciate the child- oriented simplicity of the Picaxe as I become more impaired; never any mysterious serial programming problems, dirt cheap, great tech support.  I've used the Arduino where I needed interrupts, and time critical real time bit banging and RMS AC voltage calculations for my inverter, but alas, their programmers are error prone and flaky, there were serious bugs in their math library and undocumented features in the compiler relative to interrupt routines setting flags.  Basic problems that reminded me why products cobbled together with Open Source software from multiple sources are not my preference when I have serious work to do.  I'll also add that for 5V operation, the PIC 18F series uses roughly half the power of the comparable AVR parts, even when adjusting clock for equivalent MIPS. 









glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2018, 12:41:26 AM »

That's the type Pump I use for my WI.
At 4l/ Min they are a lot of Pump even for my 4.2L 4WD with meth when they are nozzled down and the engine is pulling hard.  They also pull about 4A  under load.
One good thing about those pumps is they come in high pressure outputs. The 16 Lb of Boost I run on my engine does not make a bit of difference to the pups output and I still get the full amount of water when I need it.

I hadn't thought to use a speed controller in that application but it's a great idea I missed. I have a few around so guess where one will be applied.   :laugh:

There is one last suggestion for a pump I have Bruce, Should have thought of it from the start because it was the first Pump I ever used. You will no doubt think WTF but years back when I did use it I saq a test online and these pumps are decivingly well beuilt and long lasting.

Windscreen washer Pump.
Prefrably the Black covered GM type.
I used one for years on my merc's and only went to the pulse pumps because the washer Pumps couldn't deliver the flow I wanted.
They will pull more power than you want but you can easily put a resistor in circuit to slow it down and reduce amperage.  The best ones are the GM type with the black cover which are in fact made by Bosch.  They last longer than you would expect a little pump like this. Can't say if it would be 6000 hrs, Frankly I doubt anything that small would go that distance but they are readily available and Cheap.
I could get them from wreckers for $10 ea here in any amount.

This is the type -I- used and can vouch for. There are plenty of others but some are flaky. This type seemed great. They do an astonishing pressure, from memory it was something like 60 Psi.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-VE-VF-WM-WN-Pump-Asm-Front-Windscreen-Washer-NEW-GENUINE/173362803937?epid=3019103063&hash=item285d3a74e1:g:pYMAAOSwYK1bI1pu

They should be common on GM, BMW and Porsche amoungst others.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2018, 05:17:44 AM »
I did some fiddling with the Yasoo pump.  It must be the type you used, Glort, as you can oil it and it does run a bit smoother.  The other roller-friction on the bare motor shaft type just spins the motor shaft without moving the rollers if you oil it. 

It can't be slowed down by voltage much- won't start or run below 5V...and still has way more flow than needed for my 6/1.  I tried some smaller thin wall silicone tubing but it didn't work at all.  Ends up the wall thickness is critical so that the roller closes the tube completely.  Another slightly smaller tube with the wall a bit thicker was too thick and would stalled pump.  The tubing when squeezed in the space between the rollers and the cavity wall has to be JUST right.

I'm in no hurry so will look some more.  What I want is 20 ml/min at 36 inches of head. Car washer pumps are gross overkill for a Listeroid WI, I think.  I have an old MB one from my parts car I can try on reduced voltage to see how it goes.

I did experiment with compressed air bubble lift.  Alas, it requires a substantial depth of water to work so isn't practical for a bucket lift.

Still pondering the best solution for my needs.





glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2018, 06:25:36 AM »

With the yasoo pump Bruce, did you just try slowing it with a resistor or did your try PWM?

I have read that PWM maintains the torque better than voltage dropping does.

Surprised about the bubble lift. When I was playing with the Hydrogen generation the other week I was getting substantial water coming through 5m of small vinyl hose with that when I didn't want it to and it was coming just from a 3L milk Jug.  Pushed the water all the way through the hose with no problems.  Maybe having soe/ a Loop rather than straight up is the key?
Also seen it work on my fish tanks and they aren't much  deeper than a bucket and a straight lift.
I wonder if something like a small inverted funnel with the air coming from underneath would help? 

dieselspanner

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Re: WI
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2018, 07:54:20 AM »
Back in the day I had a VW camper which had the screen washers driven by compressed air from the spare tyre, so....

How about a system using a tyre as the air reservoir (the pressure won't vary much over 10 or 15 litres of dosing), using a needle valve to control the flow with the fuel rack opening and closing a valve?

Engine stopped, no flow, fuel rack open, off she goes. Should you be worried about the motor stalling with the rack wide open, mount the inlet as a drip over a 'sump' with a drain fitted with a valve held closed by the vacuum in the inlet manifold. As Glort said, worst that can happen is you run out of air or water.

Simple, cheap, no electrics at all and there's probably enough bits in the 'it'll come in handy pile' to knock up a test rig for free.

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2018, 09:33:41 AM »

Tyre is a good idea. I suggested the Gas bottle for exactly the reasons Bruce said.  Connections on air always seem to leak. they may start out OK but over time in my experience... they leak. That said, elephant snot on the threads/ joins does go a long way. I also use PVC Cement with good results. Coat the threads, screw the joint together then recoat the outside. Not pretty but does seems to be effective.

After an old Tyre Myself atm. Just the tyre. I saw a thing on the net where a guy mounted a small engine to one as a mount for noise and Vibration. Like to try it with some of my little Diesels.  Some of them hop so much I think I need engine mounts off a truck. I tried some car gearbox mounts and they were way too soft.

For the "roid, I reckon one of those tyres off one of those earth moving trucks that are about 8 Ft tall and weight 1.5 ton would almost be enough......  ::)

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2018, 03:42:50 PM »
I had the same idea about a funnel; I may play with it today.  There is an endless low pressure air source available without sipping on my 500 gallon compressed air tank... that's the exhaust.

RC model airplane folks use the exhaust pulses tapped from the muffler to run a diaphram pump for pumping small amounts of smoke fluid into the preheat/muffler.  A servo actuated smoker valve controls the output flow.

Another pump off of crankcase pressurize pumps fuel in aerobatic models to insure uniform fuel feed. Some use the simpler system of pressurizing the fuel tank via muffler tap.  They also had tiny check valves, as I remembered.

Alas, the RC diaphram pump is for very high rpm engines, it wouldn't be suitable for WI on on the CS engine. 

Pressurizing the water storage tank just enough to allow the intake vacuum to finish the job is one way to go.  A 3-5 gallon vessel that can handle 1.2 psi yet be cheap and easily filled is a tough nut.

The CS exhaust pressure is likely more than sufficient to pressurize this tank.

Pity the all plastic peristalsis pumps aren't readily modified.  With a tiny geared down motor they would be sweet.

Pulsed 12V to the 6V pump would preserve some torque, though at the price of motor heating.  Problem is all the available pumps I can find so far are 10-1000x the needed flow; too far to adjust by PWM, really.

I still have gravity. Even when I get to where can't lift a 3 gallon bucket I could always feed the supply tank with a little submersible pump from a bucket on the floor. 

Our first rain in months today. A good day to look at giant scale RC gadgets for fuel/smoke pumping to see if anything might be suitable.






glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2018, 05:27:10 PM »
Quote
Alas, the RC diaphram pump is for very high rpm engines, it wouldn't be suitable for WI on on the CS engine. 

This one would:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-Cadet-Pro-Kart-Pulse-Pump-Fuel-Pump-NextKarting-Kart-Shop/131984482411?hash=item1ebae3606b:g:WG8AAOSwn7JYEiRM

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2018, 05:50:01 PM »
Sweet little exhaust-diaphram fuel pump, Glort!
No penalty for flow restriction on these, so it should do the 20 ml/minute rate.  Water/meth should be no trouble either.