Author Topic: WI  (Read 2258 times)

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2018, 05:00:00 AM »
It's Mr X's method as he reported here; a shallow pan with water level just below the intake manifold, feeding a pipe in the intake manifold. Intake suction pulses pull the water up the last inch in via venturi.  He flattened the end of the tube to get reduced flow and finer droplets.  I'll report on how it goes. I'll just be adding the solenoid valve and head temperature switch. 


ajaffa1

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Re: WI
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2018, 08:47:56 AM »
Very much looking forward to this, I love to learn new things from people with experience. More pics and videos PLEASE

Bob

dax021

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Re: WI
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2018, 10:52:56 AM »
Yes please, also looking forward some pictures.  I presume with a twin, one would just T the water line, one branch to each intake?

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 01:27:37 PM »

The intake pulses must be greater than I realise to be able to pull the water up at all on a non restricted intake.

Is the pan of water replenished? I'm not getting how level is maintained? Even in a shallow pan it would take much for the water to go from 1" below the intake level to 2 or 3 inches.  I would have ( seemingly incorrectly)  thought if the depth varied the flow rate into the engine would too.
Spose that could be offset with an inverted bottle that helped maintain the level bird waterer style.

Looks like many interested eyes on this setup!

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 03:48:59 PM »
You nailed it, Glort.  The CS intake vacuum is so limited that flow rate will vary with height above the water, and even a few inches will change the flow rate.  Mr X already proved this approach works using a shallow pan to reduce the variation, so I will pursue it further. The flow rate will also vary with restriction of air filter. I'm not sure what Mr X used, I have a paper filter and he may have used the stock oil bath.

That is the advantage of Glort's preferred metered, pressurized system; a consistent flow rate.  But I'd like to see how this intake venturi/vacuum method works out.  As you pointed out, Glort, a fairly wide range of WI is OK, and once set up if flow increases by 50% because the air filter is getting dirty, it should be fine. A reduced WI rate as supply is used up is also not a show stopper as long as the variation is not more than 75% for a useful volume of water.

Your rather brilliant and original idea of using an inverted bottle to maintain a constant level would completely eliminate the water level variance ... A two liter soda bottle inverted in a small container might be an easy to service WI supply with a totally constant water level.  A float valve filled small container would also do that and allow for a larger water supply.

I'll know more today after I test the intake vacuum and venturi flow rate variance. I want to try different tube diameters in the intake manifold to see if that affects suction. 

Glort or any other experienced WI users:  Could you provide a guesstimate of a range of water flow that you think would be appropriate for my Listeroid CS 6/1?  The minimum effective water flow rate to reduce carbon buildup using dino diesel would be particularly helpful. 

Dax021- yes, a tee should do a twin.  I'll try to collect vacuum and flow data today if the wind doesn't do me in. I'm still at the thinking and collecting data stage.  I will update as I progress.










« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 04:21:25 PM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2018, 07:35:33 PM »
I measured the suction on the running CS 6/1 intake manifold at only 35 mm or 1 3/8 inches of water.   So the range of water that can be used without a flood on stopping is very shallow.  For the emitter in the intake manifold I used 3/16 OD brass tube with the end cut at 45 degrees facing away from the flow. 

https://youtu.be/LBIlMnNyCic

I see why Mr X flattened the end of his tube to restrict flow-  with the open tube, as you raise the water level (in my case raising a 10 ml syringe body attached to a telescoping stand), the flow is fairly brisk (>1 ml per second) until the water gets below the flow level and then it just stops. 

This tray feed method could certainly be used effectively as a batch WI process- get the engine warmed up and then fill up your tray; it is essentially gravity flow until the water level gets down to the stopping level of 35mm below the highest point of the manifold emitter. If you fill your tray above 35mm, you risk an intake flood if the engine should shut down.  The WI flow rate should vary linearly with water level.   

This is not what i had in mind for my use since my generator shed is quite remote and I'm more interested in something automatic that just needs water every 8 hrs of engine run time, with my usual runs of 40-60 minutes.
I'll need to add some complexity; a constant water level to be regulated via float valve or the upside down bottle method Glort suggested.  I can now fiddle on my bench with the manifold orifices  and needle valve to get the desired flow rate with a head of about 20mm of water.

If I use a 4 ml/minute flow,  8 hours of run time would use about  2 liters of water.  Is that sufficient? Would pulses of higher flow be better for dislodging deposits?





 


« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 08:07:48 PM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2018, 07:43:54 PM »
The well tested WI dosage rate I have come up with over the years as  MEDIUM flow for decarbonising works out at  !00Ml Minute Per liter of displacement . This is for a vehicle engine doing 50%+ load. IE, it's not running the whole time the engine is rather when the thing is climbing hills or accelerating.

What is a 6/1? 1.5 L is it?  Uses a bit over 1L / hr fuel?  On vehicles I have used plenty more water than Fuel over a long run but not going to need that with this but worth bearing in mind.
Given the very slow rpm and the fact the thing is always under load, for using Diesel I'd be thinking as little as 10 Ml/ Min would be sufficient. That's 600Ml hour, sounds plenty. That said, I'd be testing upping that to 15-20 Ml min for the waste Fuels.
You could certainly hurl more water in there but I don't see any benifit to that. You can only make something so clean and if you go above the point where all the buildup is gone, you're just making more work having to top the water up.

With suck a low water rate, I would expect any performance improvement to take time if there is reason for there to be one at all. In a perfect condition engine there may not be but if something is clagged, It will take time at this rate to work.  I learned that early on.  New Vehicle, Pound the water in and wash the thing out. Once the performance levels out ( as they all have) then you can back it down ..... Or not if you want to put in plenty of meth as well.
I have found meth to help with cleaning as well. This may be just down to the fact it's a very clean burning fuel.

To get meth for the water, I used to buy the E85 we can get here and add water.  The petrol and the water meth separate. By adding a known amount of water you can work out what the meth dosage is and pour off the petrol which then goes into the veg oil and dilute the water meth mix to what you want.

I did once try dissolving the petrol into the mix as well But It's EXTREMELY touchy on dosage rates. have revs up and hit the WI and you get a kick in the back. Short shift and mash your foot and the sounds as the engine nails are not good.

If one has the water capacity, Upping the water rate can be VERY helpful in lowering engine temps. I used to pull a high covered trailer with my old Merc. Along the highway at the limit i'd have to have the heater on full blast ( especially in summer) to pull the extra hat out the thing to stop it cooking. With the water running at 300Ml/ Min, the thing was 10 kmh faster AND about 20oC cooler. A huge difference.  I don't think it was just cooler inlet temps as the thing had a snorkel picking up from the front and the effect was the same as Climbing mountains in winter where the air was plenty cool, I think it was more the water pulling the heat out the engine itself due to phase changing it. Takes a lot of energy to boil water especially instantly.

Anyway, I reckon  the economical rate would be about 10Ml min Bruce. Would be interesting to pull the injector and take pics after a run before you fit the WI and then after a run with the wi working as you want and see if there is any obvious difference. The exhaust port in the head would also be good as that may be a more responsive area than the Injector buried in it's little pocket. I'm sure that would benifit but I would also expect it would take time.

Slow and steady is the trick here and I don't think it will take a lot of water as long as it's on all the time. And yeah, the variation won't matter, I think it's more the hourly rate that counts.

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2018, 07:54:36 PM »
Quote
If I use a 2 ml/minute flow, that would about 8 hours of run time for 2 liters of water.  Is that sufficient?

My gut feeling it it's on the low side but like I said, Pull the injector and look in the exhaust port, take pics, give it some runs and see if there is any difference. If not, up the flow rate and give it some more runs and try again.  :0)

Here's some more complication that maybe defeating the initial purpose.....
What about a small pump that lifts the water to the tray. The tray has an overflow that goes back to the (25L ) drum of water on the floor. For a pump, a tiny bit of air bubbling up through a tube may provide enough flow back into the tray going on the amounts you will be using and the level of the tray will remain constant.  You wouldn't need a very big tray if you had the level constantly replenishing. You can use a large supply of water so you have many hours run time in reserve.

You would want another solenoid to control the air flow for the water lift so it wasn't using air needlessly when the engine was shut off but that could be on the same circuit as the one that was on the emitter in the intake.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2018, 09:02:14 PM »
Thanks for the help with the flow rate, Glort.  I can carry 3 gallons (11 liters) of water in a 5 gallon pail with lid per 8 hr oiling service.  In winter I'll add methanol to avoid freezing.  That would allow up to 23 ml/minute water injection.  I can use a 5 gallon pail with lid for a cheap gravity feed storage vessel.  The float valve tank can be as small as will fit the $9 float valve for 1/4 OD plastic tube supply I found on Amazon. 

Air to pump water via bubbles is something I have read about.  One deep well pumping company sold windmills with an air compressor attached to the blades. It that pumped deep water wells via rising air bubbles for stock tanks...no moving parts in the deep well.

I may play around a little with your bubble idea.  A small overflowing tray to be the constant water level tank inside a larger storage tank, with water pumped to the tray via air bubbles or micro water pump... not a bad idea since it eliminates the float valve.  Mostly I need to scope out the limited space in my engine room to see what will fit and will make filling the water tank easy.




mike90045

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Re: WI
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 01:27:32 AM »
What's used in windshield washer antifreeze - is it methanol ?  Besides the color dye, anything else in it?

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2018, 02:05:50 AM »
I suspect some detergent and ammonia plus the dye and methanol.  I'm not sure I'd want to use that for water injection.  I have 5 gallons of methanol I bought at the auto race track that I can use up.

I did find a cheap up to 100ml/minute volume dosing pump that draws only 80ma of 12v and could work for someone that wants to do a direct pumped WI on a CS or other small engine.  For most if driving from a small switching 12V supply off the generator mains, that should suffice for drawing up from a covered bucket. You could even get fancy and switch the AC supply through a snap disk epoxied to the head.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B4YUOTC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A34ANJ4QLY2ZT&psc=1

I'm still undecided. For gravity flow I did find decent small float valve for 1/4 OD plastic line.

https://www.amazon.com/Kerick-Valve-MA252-Float-Adjustable/dp/B0077RAX4W/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1528678654&sr=1-3&keywords=mini+float+valve+1%2F4


BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2018, 04:08:17 PM »
After thinking and sleeping on it, I'm going with Glort's suggested pumped WI. I've ordered the cheap dosing pump listed above.

I do like things as simple as possible, and I find gravity quite reliable and cheap,  but in this case the pump draws less power than a solenoid valve, and I can just sit a 5 gallon bucket with tubing through the lid in the corner and feed the dosing pump with that.  I'll add some new Basic code to my existing PICaxe 40x2 engine controller so that it waits 10 minutes after load is detected before turning on the pump; so no new head temperature sensor required.  Likewise, stopping pumping with no load and on any condition caused shutdown is another couple lines of basic since the sensor inputs and associated code are already there.

These peristalsis type pumps can run dry with no problems and are self priming, so no float switch is required to stop a run dry situation. I'll can adjust flow rate via voltage dropping resistor and/or duty cycle as well as flow restriction. Voltage reduction is ideal since current will also be reduced and the motor will last longer.  I'll test the pump as soon as I get it; perhaps Thursday.




glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2018, 09:34:01 PM »

I bought a couple of those pumps a couple of years back to use for a low output burner. They seem OK but there appeared to be a bit of resistance  in the rollers. I put a drop of oil in the mechanism ( the cover just slides off) and it seemed much better.  I used a little PWM board to control speed but then discovered I needed to run them direct anyway.  I think they will do what you want pretty well Bruce.

I did think that any Lift the intake had with the water would be a narrow range but That may have been all that was needed.
Seems the Pump really is the less complication for you anyway.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2018, 11:33:28 PM »
Glad you've had some experience with this type of pump.  I ordered some slightly smaller silicone tubing to use with it; that should reduce flow rate and roller pressure as well; on similar pumps  flow rates are specified for several different sizes of tubing which gave me that idea. 

I should get the pump late Wednesday.


glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 01:31:29 AM »

Between WI and Veg oil for the vehicle, collecting or burners, there aren't many Pumps I haven't tried!
Haven't been many successful either.

The ones I use atm for water and burners are the Digraph type pumps commonly used for water pumps in caravans and the like. They come in pressures up to 120 PSI which I take no notice of because I don't run much pressure in them anyway. Flow is supposedly 4.2L l min.

I have one of those on the WI for the Vehicle and another on a PWM for my main burners.  4L min limits them in reality  but for practical work they are fine when run off a PWM controller to slow them down. I also tried the Little facet type puls pumps but I think the Veg killed the diaphram inside them. Worked For a while and stopped.

For oil collection, I have never gone past the Modified Small block Chev oil pumps I modify Myself. Other people use them with the standard 3/8" or whatever Ports. I Bypass them and weld " ports right into the side of the casing.  Ups the flow rate dramatically and the things will self prime and pump gelled oil. Been looking for 10 years for something better ( and still reasonably priced for the job) and never found a thing. Seen a lot of high priced pumps that do little to no better in flow rate and some of those had a 5 HP petrol motor where I am driving mine with a 300W 24V motor.


I think the little dosing pumps will be perfect for the WI application. Plenty of flow and enough lift being essentially positive Displacement.
don't know why Dosing pumps are generally so expensive. There is nothing to them in reality.
China Come to the rescue again with low cost stuff to do the job one coudn't afford from western sources.