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Author Topic: WI  (Read 2223 times)

dax021

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WI
« on: June 07, 2018, 02:20:53 PM »
I have finally got a batch of WVO ready for consumption in my SR2, but am reluctant to try it without WI.  I still haven't got my head around how to install WI, but remember reading a post where someone modified an oil bath filter to feed water into the intake.  To me this would be the easiest solution, but am concerned about whether it will work and also whether the filter will still work as an air filter, not having the oil bath.  I know Ed and Glort will be able to advise.


Thanks,
Peter


EdDee

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Re: WI
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 03:55:23 PM »
Hi Peter,

Glort's the man for WVO advice.... but.... in the interim, fuel it up, run it, if it looks like its starting to ail, a squirty bottle and a bit of water puffed down the snout while up to running temp to break any carbon free....

But let's wait for Glort to give a real answer!!

Cheers
Ed
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dax021

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Re: WI
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 08:07:35 PM »
Thanks Ed, will see what Glort has to say.  Also hoping the OP of the oil bath WI will jump in

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 01:08:14 AM »
WVO isn't going to carbon an engine up in a few or 20 hours unless something is very wrong with the engine to start with or you do something highly questionable with it Like try to roll coal for a few hours. 

My experience with Oil bath aircleaners is VERY limited. My Lombardini has one and that was full of water when I got it from some Git obviously trying to fill it or something when the thing was washed.  I did fire it up and figured there was a strange noise in that area so pulled the AC off and found milkshake in it.  Took it all off and washed it out and everything was fine.

I wouldn't use the AC as a humidifier myself.  I think it will catch all the dirt in the air then eventually send that back into the engine. Water evaporates, oil does not.   Clean it and let it do what it's designed to .

You can set up the WI in a load of ways.  Would help to know what the situation is with the engine, Mobile, in a shed, generator running long hours, genny rolled out to play with etc.  Basics of WI is feed the engine some water on a regular metered basis and that's it.

 What capacity displacement is an SR2?

dax021

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Re: WI
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2018, 10:33:07 AM »
Hi Glort, thanks for the info. 

Engine is in a shed, permanantly mounted running a 4Kw alternator @1500RPM.  I think the displacement is 1100cc, twin obviously.  I use it for standby power for when my solar can't cope or when welding, running a compressor, etc.  I had it serviced when I bought it and have since put on just over 200hrs without any problems.  I guess on average I run it about 5-10hrs a month.  I read your (or was it Ed's) comments about feeding a drip into the intake and watching the exhaust, but haven't quite figured out how, being a twin and the fact that the exhaust goes through the shed wall and then underground.  Maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing and should just run the WVO and squirt a litre or so of water down the intake once a month.

Thanks for the advice.
Peter     

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2018, 03:14:13 PM »

I very  much prefer the  constant/ while running treatment, others  seem to find good results with a good squirt.

Myself  i'd be looking at something like a fine hypodermic as a metering injector and just  have that in the inlet.  You could attach it to a small bottle so it fed  300ml or so into the engine and that was it.  don't have to have it 100% of the time but each time while running under load for a good while is I think best.

you don't need a lot either, just so long as you are getting it in there preferably while running under load and you get a decent amount in.  Couple of squirts won't do it, You want to put through half the bottle to give it a chance to work.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2018, 05:44:03 PM »
Mr X's had a very simple and effective system for WI that I liked. He used a shallow covered pan (I'm thinking Tupperware or similar) located just barely below the intake manifold, with a small tube and flattened brass end into the intake manifold.  No chance of disaster in failure, stops when engine stops.  The shallow pan with water just below the intake is to allow the minimal intake vacuum to do the job and provide relatively uniform rate of delivery. A needle valve or crimped brass tube in that small silicone (RC fuel line) line could restrict the water consumption rate.

The addition of methyl alcohol to the water to prevent freezing in winter was also discussed.  Glort reported methyl alcohol improves diesel power so that's a plus.

The additions I was thinking of making were to add a shut off valve controlled by engine temperature and a magnet-hall effect sensor to sense throttle position.  I'd keep WI off until engine was up to temperature and load was better than half load.  I've also pondered adding a float valve to the pan, making it quite small, and feeding the float valve from a larger gravity feed tank mounted on the wall.  The tank should last 8 hrs of run time, since I do a check over and oil service at that interval.  If the very small pan tank has an overflow tube that runs to a catch pail, a float valve fail will be of no concern. 

 I have some relatively low power very small 12V solenoids for low pressure that I could use. A snap switch could be use for head temperature sensing, it could feed the throttle arm magnet/hall effect or magnet-reed switch for a combined signal. A power transistor or DC solid state switch could then operate the solenoid.

My Listeroid does much of it's service in air compression so AC power isn't always present.

Glort, let me know if you think this is overkill for a remote start, unattended engine; I already have the controller shut down the engine if has no electrical or compressor load for 10 minutes.  I assumed that WI on a cold (just started) or unloaded engine would be a bad idea.  Getting rid of the throttle position sensing would make it much simpler, though it is certainly not too tough.




glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2018, 01:22:23 AM »

Sounds good to me Bruce.
I don't think I would bother with the throttle positioning sensor though. Once the engine is up to temp, as long as the water flow is not too great it will happily ingest it.

I'm presuming the engine runs constant speed and an unloader just kicks the compressor in and out?
 That being the case, speed is more important than load.  I have tens of times poured water down the inlet of a diesel Engine at substantial flow rate and I wasn't running along side the vehicle at the time! :0)
 As long as the revs are up  and the flow rate of the water is not over powering, It will be fine.
Yes, You can pump a lot more water through under load but that is not required here.  A small, constant ( more or less) flow will work fine.  I use the word constant as in when the engine is running over hours rather than just a squirt from a bottle at the end of each run. If one times it to run 10 Min every hour, that would be constant to me rather than the batch pumping.  I don't doubt that works, I have done it myself many, many times, I just believe a more protracted application for engines doing longer hours like vehicles and gennys would work even better.  The constant application I see as more of a preventative in stopping buildup rather than an antidote once it has occurred.

If one has an engine they pull out the shed and use occasionaly, Sure Give the thing a spray, that the most practical thing to do and would be fine. If you are running the thing 4 hours a day most days, then there is greater ease in setting something permanent up and the justification in run time for it.

In all honesty, I like pumps.  I like to pump water for WI and I like to Pump Fuel for burners.  Pumping eliminates a lot of problems and the BIG advantage is it gives you wide and precise control.  I don't suggest it much because most people say " I don't want to make things complicated".
To me complication is doing too much that is not necessary and gives no benefit.
Putting in a pump and a speed controller/ timer/ whatever is very simple and it affords a LOT of advantages over gravity and other methods.

I look at the risk. Pump fails, No WI. Big deal. not going to explode because the WI stops. You have 100 hrs of run time to get another one before it matters. Go back to your squirt bottle in the mean time and it's still OK.  Despite what people say, Nothing is Bullet proff at all so you do what suits your Mindset and what suits your abilities and knowledge to apply.

If you were going to have a solenoid and a temp sensor you could drip feed the water in easily because it won't run till the engine is running and up to temp.  May be easier than using a pan and getting that to work Whatever suits one's prefrances.
A lot of people make a big thing out of the engine filling with water.  It's NOT a big deal at all unless you leave it for a week+.
I have done it on a number of occasions.

Firstly, unlike popular Opinion, I don't believe there are too many conventional (pull or electric) starters out there that have the ability to turn an engine hard enough to bend or brake anything with the engine Hydrolocked.  Couldn't say home many small engines I have taken crank Nuts off  by packing the cylinder with rag through the plug hole to lock them up and then put a 4ft bar on the end of the spanner to move the net. NEVER damaged an engine like that yet.

When you see the engine is full of water, you pull the injector or spark plug and push the water out. Spin it up a bit to clear it and that's it.
Check the oil and if it's not over saturated, reinstall plug or injector and off you go.
An amount of due Diligence is required with these things. If one needs it to be fool proof because they are too foolish to disconnect something when they are going to leave it for a long time or fail to take obvious precautions, well that's different but chances are if one is that distracted, they'll fk something up anyway.  :0)

The thing that gets me with the simple Obsession is people only tend to apply it to DIY.  If you said that Driving a car from the '50s was better than a modern car because there was less to go wrong. People would say you were an idiot and site all the comfort, saftey and convenience as well as reliability a modern car affords. ( You and I with Mercs may be an exception!)  They are very happy with all that " Complication" but then say Oh no it's too much when you suggest putting a timer or a sensor on a stationary engine.  I don't get it myself.


Like your Idea with temp sensors and solenoids, I don't think it's a complication, I simply think it's using some simple technology to get a better result than not applying those systems or methods... which have inherent problems of their own.   

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2018, 08:13:57 AM »
Thanks for the helpful advice, Glort.  It's much appreciated.

A low power, 12V dispensing pump does have some merit- same controls as a solenoid valve and perhaps about the same current.  The supply could then be anywhere, and no float valve simplifies things too.

The smallest one I can find uses 300 ma at 12V. No doubt the water flow is excessive but I suppose I could run it off a cmos 555 timer can cut the duty cycle to 1 second in 10 or so.  I'll still have to rig a bypass for excess flow.

Maybe I'll find a better suited pump on ebay tomorrow AM.

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 10:36:27 AM »

Wasn't so much trying to push you to a pump Bruce as to say it's what I'd use and adding what some see as complication be it Solenoids and button switches or pumps has very worthwhile merits.

I'd use a pump for the very reasons you state. I can put any size tank I want on the floor and the thing won't syphon for a start. With a PWM or a timer -I- can control the dosage much easier and more accurately that with valves and varying water levels. That's easy for me to do the mental arithmetic on, other far more educated people could get other things to work that would be beyond me.

Other thing I'd also look at doing is just putting a Carburettor on the inlet.  Open the throttle wide or just take it out and with a lot of these carbs now with plastic float bowls brass or plastic Needles and seats, running water through shouldn't be a problem at all. You would be sure of a nice constant Mist through the engine and you could easy vary the amount with jetting although I'd doubt it would be possible to put too much water through at any setting a petrol engine ever ran on.

Put your Solenoid on the feed so it didn't allow any water in until the engine was warmed up and have a 5? min shutdown timer to use the water in the carb before the engine stops and you are there.  I think that may be the simplest and most effective way of all with the right carb.
Other think I have played with on the bench is running water through a fuel injector.
Petrol Fuel injectors only run at 40 PSI or so and those caravan type diaphram pumps will do 80-120 easy and cost under $20. Add a little pulse timer board off fleabay and you can set the injection frequency to any duty cycle you like.

From what I have read, typicaly against popular belief, fuel injectors will not corrode up with water.  The pintles are made from stainless or something hard that won't rust.  For you this could be a winner.  Don't pump the water, have it in a tank and bleed some of your compressed air into the water tank to push it to the injector.

If you wanted to play with that, give me a couple of weeks and I'll grab some injectors and send them to you.
The board I got off fleabay, you'd probably prefer to make your own and incorporate the temp sense and other things into it.
I was looking at this initially for the fuel injection for a stationary pulse jet but I thing the frequency would be too slow.  that said, If I had like 4 injectors firing in series to spread the cycle time of each one.....

Also wanted to see how they would do for an oil burner. they may not spray real well with oil but the metering is the important bit.  I could get some fine control for low outputs which is the trick with these things.  I can build a burner to do 300Kw standing on my head. Doing one that does 3KW steady..... that takes some doing.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 04:11:40 PM »
Good ideas for thought. I can see why petrol injectors would be appealing as a means of atomizing and metering for your oil burner design. 

I think small droplets are OK for WI in the intake manifold so a brass tube into manifold with venturi effect seems appealing; even with a micro DC pump it could be set up with a tee-bypass and crimped brass tube insert flow restriction so that water head is insufficient without intake manifold venturi/vacuum.  Silicone tubing would make that readily visible for adjustment.

I don't have AC power when doing a lot of air compressing; I like to unstrap the generator head as it does affect my fuel consumption.  So I'd like to keep my power use to the minimum.  I do have a little 40W panel and 12V battery (hand me down's from my no-alternator car that have lost too much capacity) in the engine shed, but I like to keep running power draw to a bare minimum. 

I'll take a look today at floor (pump) vs wall mount tanks (gravity) and see what seems easiest. 


BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2018, 12:20:13 AM »
I checked out my engine room for water injection possibilities.  I think I'll try a covered shallow pan just below the intake manifold method developed by Mr X first.  There's a nice spot on the wall that I can add some brackets and a plastic storage bin as the feed tank.  I found the small solenoid valve in a parts box in the engine room, and even a needle valve so this could be a very cheap to build setup.  I've got to look at my thermal snap disc collection next.

edit- sorry, wrong video link here, will re- upload and update the link next.
Here's the on-topic video I meant to list:

https://youtu.be/AiMfoOW6CLw
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 01:41:12 AM by BruceM »

32 coupe

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Re: WI
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2018, 12:36:08 AM »

Nice video, as always !


Gary


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BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2018, 01:44:00 AM »
Thanks Gary, Alas, I uploaded the wrong video- it was one showing my Listerioid setup but not the one I had intended for this thread. 

Because of the ease of implementing Mr X's intake venturi feed method as I discussed, I'm rounding up parts  to give it a try.

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 04:13:54 AM »

I'm still not 100% sure how this works. What I had in mind is different to what you showed in the vid.
No doubt I'll get to learn something once again when you show the vid of it set up and in action!  :0)